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I think it's easy for everyone here to estimate the actual amount of malfeasance by taken the number of times they've seen police behave inappropriately (dozens

I think it's easy for everyone here to estimate the actual amount of malfeasance by taken the number of times they've seen police behave inappropriately (dozens) and divide it by the number of complaints they've made (zero). I guess you would also need to go make a complaint and see what the odds of it being taken are.

mcherm 6y ago
> I think it's easy for everyone here to estimate the actual amount of malfeasance by taken the number of times they've seen police behave inappropriately (dozens) and divide it by the number of complaints they've made (zero). Except that this approach is NOT useful because police malfeasance is NOT distributed evenly. For example, over my lifetime I have only seen one case I can recall of police misbehavior, and I'm not sure that one even rises to the level of "malfeasance". Perhaps if I were black and lived in New York City (where "stop and frisk" was an official policy for years) I would have a very different impression. It is for exactly this reason that it is important to use actual statistics instead of personal anecdotes.
- dexterdog 6y ago
  Complaining about stop and frisk would not have been a valid complaint since it was policy at the time.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    Depends on what the complaint is about. Remember that stop-and-frisk didn't end because of any changes to the law or formal policies. In principle, police were never allowed to stop someone without reasonable suspicion; in principle, the standards for NYPD police stops are the same now as they were a decade ago.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  Statistics aside for a minute. Every single interaction I’ve had with the police personally has been worthy of complaint. He’ll, I’ll even complain when I see them take their side arms in to the bakery for lunch, here in Launceston Tasmania. Who is so insecure they need a gun with their croissant. Additionally, when the police prosecutor charged me with drug trafficking on evidence they knew was collected illegally, and 27 months later they had to drop the charges, there’s no simple way to have the officers involved and the police prosecutor charged, or even reprimanded in any way, for knowingly contravening the law. Those 27 months weren’t real comfortable for me, but ok I’ll wear that, I did have the drugs in my possession, my guilt is indisputable, but my privacy, in that case, is more important than the intentional malfeasance of these institutionalised bullies, and the courts here, at the time, agreed. To summaries, anyone who can act with impunity deserves constant derision until we see real change. The police need to be trained that escalating violence isn’t the only path to working in the community, and that even when they honestly believe they caught someone in the act, they need to be treating that human being with kindness and respect. What I’m saying is, if the police can’t behave, and they presently aren’t behaving, then another agency needs to be created that sends agentes out with the police to act as a public advocate, to protect the rights of everyone, and guide the police in their responsibilities.
  - itronitron 6y ago
    If the police are carrying a gun while on duty, then it is safer to carry it with them into the bakery rather than leave it unattended in a vehicle from which it could be stolen. Whether they need the gun in the first place is debatable however.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      I agree with both your points.
  - DenisM 6y ago
    > Who is so insecure they need a gun with their croissant. Maybe these guys: ... four police officers of Lakewood, Washington were fatally shot at the Forza Coffee shop ... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Lakewood_shooting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Lakewood_shooting
- int_19h 6y ago
  The actual statistics are not available, because the police unions are fighting tooth and nail to prevent release of any and all data that could be used to compile it. This case is a typical example. This, in and of itself, tells volumes about what that statistics would show if it were available. But even anecdotes are telling. The ones that are most telling are the anecdotes of whistleblower cops, and specifically how their colleagues treat them after. You'll quickly notice a pattern - as soon as they interfere with one "bad apple", pretty much the entire PD/SD starts actively obstructing them, and it can get pretty extreme. To see just how extreme, and just how many people can get involved in such a witch hunt, look up Adrian Schoolcraft.
bitcurious 6y ago
> I think it's easy for everyone here to estimate the actual amount of malfeasance by taken the number of times they've seen police behave inappropriately (dozens) and divide it by the number of complaints they've made (zero). I would be surprised if the average American had a dozen interactions with police in a given year, not to mention dozens of instances of police misbehavior. Can you share a bit about your life? What context do you have for dozens of instances of police abuse?
DenisM 6y ago
In two decades I’ve had a handful interactions and witnessed quite a few more in Seattle - zero malfeasance observed. Most people who are happy with the police will never be loud about it, but they do vote.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  I feel like you missed the theme of the last few months: The police are targeting minorities, i.e. not most people, disproportionately and people are trying to get the majority, i.e. most people, to stop being happy with that and to join them in being loud about it.
  - DenisM 6y ago
    This looks like a rebuttal of something I did not say. Can you clarify which point of mine you’re refuting?
    - mellow2020 6y ago
      What point were you making? That in your personal bubble, beyond which you don't care to look, everything is fine, so it's fine and you vote accordingly, whatever that means? Or that most people who are happy will not compplain, i.e. refuting a straw man, since nobody said they would?
      - DenisM 6y ago
        > That in your personal bubble, beyond which you don't care to look, everything is fine, so it's fine and you vote accordingly, whatever that means? I didn't say any of that, why do you make things up on my behalf?
        mellow2020 6y ago
        You said you had zero problems with police and did never encounter them mistreating others personally. I know you have internet access, so you're not looking beyond your own tiny physical bubble. That is what your words mean. Plus some ominous addendum about voting, without saying what that would mean in practice in this context, i.e. voting for whom over whom. Why do I care more about what you're actually saying than you do? Would you say that's also true for the silent [sic] majority who only votes awesomely, for whom you presumed to speak?

mcherm 6y ago

> I think it's easy for everyone here to estimate the actual amount of malfeasance by taken the number of times they've seen police behave inappropriately (dozens) and divide it by the number of complaints they've made (zero). Except that this approach is NOT useful because police malfeasance is NOT distributed evenly. For example, over my lifetime I have only seen one case I can recall of police misbehavior, and I'm not sure that one even rises to the level of "malfeasance". Perhaps if I were black and lived in New York City (where "stop and frisk" was an official policy for years) I would have a very different impression. It is for exactly this reason that it is important to use actual statistics instead of personal anecdotes.

dexterdog 6y ago
Complaining about stop and frisk would not have been a valid complaint since it was policy at the time.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Depends on what the complaint is about. Remember that stop-and-frisk didn't end because of any changes to the law or formal policies. In principle, police were never allowed to stop someone without reasonable suspicion; in principle, the standards for NYPD police stops are the same now as they were a decade ago.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
Statistics aside for a minute. Every single interaction I’ve had with the police personally has been worthy of complaint. He’ll, I’ll even complain when I see them take their side arms in to the bakery for lunch, here in Launceston Tasmania. Who is so insecure they need a gun with their croissant. Additionally, when the police prosecutor charged me with drug trafficking on evidence they knew was collected illegally, and 27 months later they had to drop the charges, there’s no simple way to have the officers involved and the police prosecutor charged, or even reprimanded in any way, for knowingly contravening the law. Those 27 months weren’t real comfortable for me, but ok I’ll wear that, I did have the drugs in my possession, my guilt is indisputable, but my privacy, in that case, is more important than the intentional malfeasance of these institutionalised bullies, and the courts here, at the time, agreed. To summaries, anyone who can act with impunity deserves constant derision until we see real change. The police need to be trained that escalating violence isn’t the only path to working in the community, and that even when they honestly believe they caught someone in the act, they need to be treating that human being with kindness and respect. What I’m saying is, if the police can’t behave, and they presently aren’t behaving, then another agency needs to be created that sends agentes out with the police to act as a public advocate, to protect the rights of everyone, and guide the police in their responsibilities.
- itronitron 6y ago
  If the police are carrying a gun while on duty, then it is safer to carry it with them into the bakery rather than leave it unattended in a vehicle from which it could be stolen. Whether they need the gun in the first place is debatable however.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    I agree with both your points.
- DenisM 6y ago
  > Who is so insecure they need a gun with their croissant. Maybe these guys: ... four police officers of Lakewood, Washington were fatally shot at the Forza Coffee shop ... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Lakewood_shooting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Lakewood_shooting
int_19h 6y ago
The actual statistics are not available, because the police unions are fighting tooth and nail to prevent release of any and all data that could be used to compile it. This case is a typical example. This, in and of itself, tells volumes about what that statistics would show if it were available. But even anecdotes are telling. The ones that are most telling are the anecdotes of whistleblower cops, and specifically how their colleagues treat them after. You'll quickly notice a pattern - as soon as they interfere with one "bad apple", pretty much the entire PD/SD starts actively obstructing them, and it can get pretty extreme. To see just how extreme, and just how many people can get involved in such a witch hunt, look up Adrian Schoolcraft.

bitcurious 6y ago

> I think it's easy for everyone here to estimate the actual amount of malfeasance by taken the number of times they've seen police behave inappropriately (dozens) and divide it by the number of complaints they've made (zero). I would be surprised if the average American had a dozen interactions with police in a given year, not to mention dozens of instances of police misbehavior. Can you share a bit about your life? What context do you have for dozens of instances of police abuse?

DenisM 6y ago

In two decades I’ve had a handful interactions and witnessed quite a few more in Seattle - zero malfeasance observed. Most people who are happy with the police will never be loud about it, but they do vote.

guerrilla 6y ago
I feel like you missed the theme of the last few months: The police are targeting minorities, i.e. not most people, disproportionately and people are trying to get the majority, i.e. most people, to stop being happy with that and to join them in being loud about it.
- DenisM 6y ago
  This looks like a rebuttal of something I did not say. Can you clarify which point of mine you’re refuting?
  - mellow2020 6y ago
    What point were you making? That in your personal bubble, beyond which you don't care to look, everything is fine, so it's fine and you vote accordingly, whatever that means? Or that most people who are happy will not compplain, i.e. refuting a straw man, since nobody said they would?
    - DenisM 6y ago
      > That in your personal bubble, beyond which you don't care to look, everything is fine, so it's fine and you vote accordingly, whatever that means? I didn't say any of that, why do you make things up on my behalf?
      - mellow2020 6y ago
        You said you had zero problems with police and did never encounter them mistreating others personally. I know you have internet access, so you're not looking beyond your own tiny physical bubble. That is what your words mean. Plus some ominous addendum about voting, without saying what that would mean in practice in this context, i.e. voting for whom over whom. Why do I care more about what you're actually saying than you do? Would you say that's also true for the silent [sic] majority who only votes awesomely, for whom you presumed to speak?