4 ms·

You get what you pay for. That holds true everywhere.

BossingAround 6y ago
Umm... 20$ an hour, meaning 3200$ a month, would be quite a nice salary in a lot of Europe (Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, ...). You get people with BAs or MAs in comp science who have been developers for 2-5 years. While I'm sure some will say that 3.2k is ridiculous in country X, I personally met people in all of the above countries working for less while being more experienced.
- gourabmi 6y ago
  I guess that is the reason why there is interest in outsourcing to Eastern Europe. Case in point being EPAM Systems. Indian IT consultancies might have huge operations but they are not the only show in town.
  - stephenhuey 6y ago
    Yes, and we collaborated with a few dozen EPAM developers on some projects at my last full-time corporate job, and all of the ones I worked with (both the in-person EPAM teammates and the remote ones) were very sharp people who definitely enjoy technological endeavors. As development firms such as EPAM gain traction, I expect some of the massive Indian firms will lose ground.
    - gourabmi 6y ago
      Right. I'm counting on that to happen. This should force the hands of the Indian firms to innovate or perish. That should be very interesting to watch.
      - shubb 6y ago
        Eastern Europe is in a wierd time where it has the infrastructure, market access, and human resources of a rich country, but much lower cost of living and pay. That isn't sustainable - we will just see things equalise with Germany and then where is the competitive advantage? So cutting costs by pushing technical work to eastern EU isn't sustainable, at least in the 10 year time frame. I am sure EPAM and the tech industry there will adapt to the shift but they will not be as the new Infosys.
- TriNetra 6y ago
  The developer you're getting from the big IT consultancy is likely getting only 15-20% of what you're paying for him.
- dejv 6y ago
  20 USD/hour is not what developer earns, but what you pay for developer time. Overhead (buildings, managers, computers, toilet paper), sales commissions, taxes, and off time and eats big big part of that money.
  - noir_lord 6y ago
    The rule of thumb used to be, total costs = what you pay them * 1.5 to cover that stuff. So 3200 becomes $4800 (or just under $57k a year) - that's still a good deal given what you'd get. I've worked with eastern and central European developers and some of them are phenomenal (the skill breakdown is about equivalent to UK devs as a pool maybe tending towards them been slightly better but there will be some element of selection bias in that, language barrier is the biggest hurdle, many of them speak/write good English - my partner is Hungarian and her written English is at least as good as mine) but when the tiniest miss-understanding on requirements is costly during development and potentially devastating in production that really starts to matter.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      I think you are misunderstanding what the $20 refer to. They are what the customer is paying to the company for a single billable hour. That money is not only used to pay the developer but usually the rest of the company too. Sales, marketing, accountants and other employees that aren't directly assigned to a project or are waiting for their next project will have to be paid from that billable hour as well. You can call them greedy or whatever but usually they get away with a 50% cut or sometimes more. Ok, now you are left with $10 which represents the labor cost + office space + equipment needed by the developer himself. So the employee gets paid $6.66 per hour before taxes but the customer is paying $20 for that.
  - arbitrary_name 6y ago
    I've seen rate cards for quite a few bpo providers and major it body shops, and unless it's like an extreme case (Chennai and one or two other cities), the devs are getting slightly less than 10% of their billed rate, the rest being overhead. Hell, I look at the delta between what my firm bills me out for and what I take home, and it's about 12% of my fully loaded day rate.
- treve 6y ago
  These are IT agencies though, competing in a global market. Not individual salaries.
- el-salvador 6y ago
  Definitely! I'd love to earn $3200 a month here... I don't mind much about the wage gap between countries when I do local work, but it gets ackward when working with remote teams. Like I may earn $20k/yr here for what my teammates abroad would be making $100k/yr.

Umm... 20$ an hour, meaning 3200$ a month, would be quite a nice salary in a lot of Europe (Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, ...). You get people with BAs or MAs in comp science who have been developers for 2-5 years. While I'm sure some will say that 3.2k is ridiculous in country X, I personally met people in all of the above countries working for less while being more experienced.

gourabmi 6y ago
I guess that is the reason why there is interest in outsourcing to Eastern Europe. Case in point being EPAM Systems. Indian IT consultancies might have huge operations but they are not the only show in town.
- stephenhuey 6y ago
  Yes, and we collaborated with a few dozen EPAM developers on some projects at my last full-time corporate job, and all of the ones I worked with (both the in-person EPAM teammates and the remote ones) were very sharp people who definitely enjoy technological endeavors. As development firms such as EPAM gain traction, I expect some of the massive Indian firms will lose ground.
  - gourabmi 6y ago
    Right. I'm counting on that to happen. This should force the hands of the Indian firms to innovate or perish. That should be very interesting to watch.
    - shubb 6y ago
      Eastern Europe is in a wierd time where it has the infrastructure, market access, and human resources of a rich country, but much lower cost of living and pay. That isn't sustainable - we will just see things equalise with Germany and then where is the competitive advantage? So cutting costs by pushing technical work to eastern EU isn't sustainable, at least in the 10 year time frame. I am sure EPAM and the tech industry there will adapt to the shift but they will not be as the new Infosys.
TriNetra 6y ago
The developer you're getting from the big IT consultancy is likely getting only 15-20% of what you're paying for him.
dejv 6y ago
20 USD/hour is not what developer earns, but what you pay for developer time. Overhead (buildings, managers, computers, toilet paper), sales commissions, taxes, and off time and eats big big part of that money.
- noir_lord 6y ago
  The rule of thumb used to be, total costs = what you pay them * 1.5 to cover that stuff. So 3200 becomes $4800 (or just under $57k a year) - that's still a good deal given what you'd get. I've worked with eastern and central European developers and some of them are phenomenal (the skill breakdown is about equivalent to UK devs as a pool maybe tending towards them been slightly better but there will be some element of selection bias in that, language barrier is the biggest hurdle, many of them speak/write good English - my partner is Hungarian and her written English is at least as good as mine) but when the tiniest miss-understanding on requirements is costly during development and potentially devastating in production that really starts to matter.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    I think you are misunderstanding what the $20 refer to. They are what the customer is paying to the company for a single billable hour. That money is not only used to pay the developer but usually the rest of the company too. Sales, marketing, accountants and other employees that aren't directly assigned to a project or are waiting for their next project will have to be paid from that billable hour as well. You can call them greedy or whatever but usually they get away with a 50% cut or sometimes more. Ok, now you are left with $10 which represents the labor cost + office space + equipment needed by the developer himself. So the employee gets paid $6.66 per hour before taxes but the customer is paying $20 for that.
- arbitrary_name 6y ago
  I've seen rate cards for quite a few bpo providers and major it body shops, and unless it's like an extreme case (Chennai and one or two other cities), the devs are getting slightly less than 10% of their billed rate, the rest being overhead. Hell, I look at the delta between what my firm bills me out for and what I take home, and it's about 12% of my fully loaded day rate.
treve 6y ago
These are IT agencies though, competing in a global market. Not individual salaries.
el-salvador 6y ago
Definitely! I'd love to earn $3200 a month here... I don't mind much about the wage gap between countries when I do local work, but it gets ackward when working with remote teams. Like I may earn $20k/yr here for what my teammates abroad would be making $100k/yr.