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> Do you really think that's what people are complaining about here? Not the professors being fired, the well known economists being forced to resign? There was

by oisdk 6y ago

> Do you really think that's what people are complaining about here? Not the professors being fired, the well known economists being forced to resign? There was a professor who lost his status running a residence hall because he was on the legal defense team for someone despicable. So the only actual example I was able to google here was the last one: and I have to say, is that it? A guy wasn’t asked back as a dorm administrator once he joined Harvey Weinstein’s legal team? That’s the “cancel culture” you’re talking about, in contrast to one of the most brutal and grotesque onslaught of police brutality in the west in recent memory? Like you realise the protests were sparked off by a murder, right? This is what I mean when I say it’s ridiculous. The Harvard guy didn’t even lose his job, for goodness’ sake. > Everything the protestors are doing has probably set us back a decade. Where did I defend or endorse the actions of protestors? My point is simply that it’s ridiculous to think the main authoritarian crisis in the US right now is “cancel culture” when it is literally in the midst of a brutal police crackdown against protestors. Also I’m sorry but it’s hard to take you seriously with regards to police violence when you didn’t mention a single thing the police did wrong in your list of grievances, but you’re happy to talk about the protestors. > every major spike in crime due to police being defunded instead of retrained This is not a view supported by the evidence. > We have a legal and social framework for affecting longterm change and it works much better than arson. The US has more prisoners per capita than any society at any point in history in the world. The police are armed and violent. And those systems which apparently work so well have been in place throughout all this. But maybe you should tell me more about how these systems work so well. Also I’m continually amazed that Americans forget their proud history of violent protest so quickly. It always seems like protest against injustice was fine in some unspecified “past” but of course all of that Is behind us now and The best we can do is vote (vote for the party at least partly responsible for the state of the police today, by the way).

vorpalhex 6y ago
> Like you realise the protests were sparked off by a murder, right? And since then they've resulted in 17 deaths. Tit for tat? Were those 17 people guilty in that murder? Yes that initial act was wrong and we should address that, vandalizing businesses and setting federal property on fire has nothing to do with that original offense. > it’s ridiculous to think the main authoritarian crisis in the US right now You keep asserting this. You don't show evidence for this. What's the authoritarian crisis? That cops have qualified immunity? That's not new. Is it that you think poorly of the president? I think poorly of him too but he's not Mussolini. You can't vaguely claim there's something wrong with a system and use that as an excuse for violence and destruction - especially when the violence and destruction isn't even targeted at the people you're accusing. > you didn’t mention a single thing the police did wrong in your list of grievances No I didn't because it's not relevant. You're creating a strawman when the reality of the situation is complicated. This isn't cops versus protesters and attempts to cast it as a binary problem is partisanship. If you're interested in solving problems instead of stirring up anger then your interest should be in understanding the problem and not polarizing sides. > This is not a view supported by the evidence. 1. https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/effect-higher-education-police-behavior https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/effect-higher-educa... 2. https://inpublicsafety.com/2014/07/how-education-impacts-police-performance/ https://inpublicsafety.com/2014/07/how-education-impacts-pol... > The US has more prisoners per capita than any society at any point in history in the world That has nothing to do with this topic. Like, I agree that's a problem and we should address that by considering how we treat low level drug offenses, but it has nothing to do with police brutality and cancel culture. > The police are armed and violent. Police brutality has decreased mindbogglingly since the 1960s. Yes the police have more gear and we can talk about why it makes sense to do things like remove camo from their inventory and the pros/cons of using APCs, but that has nothing to do with canceling people and ruining their careers. > But maybe you should tell me more about how these systems work so well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinated_American_politicians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinated_American_... > proud history of violent protest so quickly Violence is not something to be proud of. A violent victory for one person is a funeral for another. Violence is against justice and it deprives the accused of reasonable and rational defense. You talk so much against authoritarianism, but violence is the fundamental tool of it. Courts and ballot boxes are the tools of democracy.
- oisdk 6y ago
  > And since then they've resulted in 17 deaths. Wait---are you seriously not going to count the people the police have killed? What is wrong with you? Regardless, my point was not that the protests are justified (although of course they are: for someone who claims to work in "police reform" all you have been doing is defending the police and demonising protestors), but that to not identify the militarised police force brutalising protestors as a more important sign of authoritarianism than "cancel culture" is ridiculous. That's why I mentioned the protests were started by a murder. Because when you claim cancel culture is this huge problem, and mention a Harvard professor not having one of his duties renewed, I think it's relevant to show how grotesquely out of proportion it is with the George Floyd protests. > You keep asserting this. You don't show evidence for this. I'm sorry: in what capacity have you been "working for police reform"? I'm really getting the feeling that that is an extremely inaccurate description of your job. I haven't shown evidence for the police brutality in the US because I assumed you were aware of it. Are you not? Do you not understand that police officers murdering peaceful protestors is an authoritarian crisis? > If you're interested in solving problems instead of stirring up anger then your interest should be in understanding the problem and not polarizing sides. All of the "solutions" for how to stop police violence which come from American police amount to (surprisingly) giving the police more money. Kind of like how all of the "solutions" to gun violence involve giving more people guns (teachers, cops, etc.) The way to curb police violence is to defund and demilitarise the police. This is what has worked in places outside of the US, and this is the only realistic approach. > 1. https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/effect-higher-educa.. https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/effect-higher-educa.... > > 2. https://inpublicsafety.com/2014/07/how-education-impacts-pol.. https://inpublicsafety.com/2014/07/how-education-impacts-pol.... This is not evidence for the claim that defunding the police causes a spike in crime. > That has nothing to do with this topic. Mass imprisonment is absolutely relevant to the question of the authoritarian nature of the police. > Violence is not something to be proud of. You can't think of a single instance of violent protest that you'd be proud of? > You talk so much against authoritarianism, but violence is the fundamental tool of it. It's difficult to take you seriously on the issue of police violence when you have yet to even acknowledge the horrific and obvious police brutality during the protests.
skellington 6y ago
Rioters aren't protesters and there is nothing even close to "brutal" happening to the rioters. If anything, the state is showing remarkable restraint. Imagine if this shit was happening in China or Russia. If you/they get what you want out of all of this, a neo-marxist-anarcho-commune-socialist-green-whatever, no-rules, but lots of rules enforced randomly by the mob, THEN you'll see real brutal-ism like you saw in CHAZ when the 'security' force gunned down two teenagers who were joy riding in a stolen car. The fact that current rioters have no real fear is because they know that the police are extremely restrained in what they do. Getting tear gassed or (rarely) hit with a baton/bean-bag is nothing close to what real brutality is. Also, the fact that you are not aware of the deep reaches of cancel culture today is because you are aggressively conformist with your peer group so you only get your information from sources that are deeply filtered.
- oisdk 6y ago
  > there is nothing even close to "brutal" happening to the rioters. If you aren't going to believe me, and if you're not going to believe your eyes with regards to the multiple clear videos of police brutality, then maybe you should listen to the multiple international human rights organisations which have called for an end to the police brutality? I mean what would even convince you that the police are brutalising protestors? What evidence are you missing? Surely there is just as much evidence for the US brutalising its citizens as there is for China or Russia doing so? (I am not saying the level of brutality is the same, mind you) To be honest with you it's difficult to have a conversation with someone so out of touch with reality in this way: if you can't see that the US police are brutalising protestors you're maybe too far gone. > The fact that current rioters have no real fear is because they know that the police are extremely restrained in what they do. How many people have the police killed since the protests began? > Getting tear gassed or (rarely) hit with a baton/bean-bag is nothing close to what real brutality is. You know people were killed by tear gas? You know people lost eyes from rubber bullets? > Also, the fact that you are not aware of the deep reaches of cancel culture today is because you are aggressively conformist with your peer group so you only get your information from sources that are deeply filtered. In contrast to you, the well-read worldly individual who gets their news from news.ycombinator.com. Go on, then: tell me about the horrific cases of cancel culture which I was shielded from in my bubble.
Vomzor 6y ago
>So the only actual example I was able to google here was the last one: and I have to say, is that it? 125 examples (so far) of regular people losing their job or being threatened for thoughtcrime: https://twitter.com/SoOppressed/status/1282404647160942598 https://twitter.com/SoOppressed/status/1282404647160942598
im3w1l 6y ago
> Like you realise the protests were sparked off by a murder, right? It wasn't a murder. I suggest you read the transcript from Lane's body camera. Key points: * Lane approaches George Floyd asks him to show his hands. Floyd is so high, he has difficulty complying. * They take him out of his car and try to get him in the police car. * Floyd claims he can't breathe and begs to be allowed to lie on the ground. * They call the ambulance (unclear if this is before after he is put on the ground). * He keeps talking for a few minutes, before losing consciousness. https://www.fox9.com/news/transcript-of-officers-body-camera-shows-george-floyd-told-officers-i-cant-breathe-before-being-restrained https://www.fox9.com/news/transcript-of-officers-body-camera...
- jonny_eh 6y ago
  Wow, the police were so helpful!
- RonaldRaygun 6y ago
  Wow, that was so nice of the police to let him lie down when he asked. Then to thoughtfully apply a knee to his neck to prevent him from flying up into the sky if gravitational attraction were to suddenly reverse, so very helpful and just! And they kept at it for almost 9 minutes, such dedication to helping the public, wow.

by oisdk 6y ago

vorpalhex 6y ago

> Like you realise the protests were sparked off by a murder, right? And since then they've resulted in 17 deaths. Tit for tat? Were those 17 people guilty in that murder? Yes that initial act was wrong and we should address that, vandalizing businesses and setting federal property on fire has nothing to do with that original offense. > it’s ridiculous to think the main authoritarian crisis in the US right now You keep asserting this. You don't show evidence for this. What's the authoritarian crisis? That cops have qualified immunity? That's not new. Is it that you think poorly of the president? I think poorly of him too but he's not Mussolini. You can't vaguely claim there's something wrong with a system and use that as an excuse for violence and destruction - especially when the violence and destruction isn't even targeted at the people you're accusing. > you didn’t mention a single thing the police did wrong in your list of grievances No I didn't because it's not relevant. You're creating a strawman when the reality of the situation is complicated. This isn't cops versus protesters and attempts to cast it as a binary problem is partisanship. If you're interested in solving problems instead of stirring up anger then your interest should be in understanding the problem and not polarizing sides. > This is not a view supported by the evidence. 1. https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/effect-higher-education-police-behavior https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/effect-higher-educa... 2. https://inpublicsafety.com/2014/07/how-education-impacts-police-performance/ https://inpublicsafety.com/2014/07/how-education-impacts-pol... > The US has more prisoners per capita than any society at any point in history in the world That has nothing to do with this topic. Like, I agree that's a problem and we should address that by considering how we treat low level drug offenses, but it has nothing to do with police brutality and cancel culture. > The police are armed and violent. Police brutality has decreased mindbogglingly since the 1960s. Yes the police have more gear and we can talk about why it makes sense to do things like remove camo from their inventory and the pros/cons of using APCs, but that has nothing to do with canceling people and ruining their careers. > But maybe you should tell me more about how these systems work so well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinated_American_politicians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinated_American_... > proud history of violent protest so quickly Violence is not something to be proud of. A violent victory for one person is a funeral for another. Violence is against justice and it deprives the accused of reasonable and rational defense. You talk so much against authoritarianism, but violence is the fundamental tool of it. Courts and ballot boxes are the tools of democracy.

oisdk 6y ago
> And since then they've resulted in 17 deaths. Wait---are you seriously not going to count the people the police have killed? What is wrong with you? Regardless, my point was not that the protests are justified (although of course they are: for someone who claims to work in "police reform" all you have been doing is defending the police and demonising protestors), but that to not identify the militarised police force brutalising protestors as a more important sign of authoritarianism than "cancel culture" is ridiculous. That's why I mentioned the protests were started by a murder. Because when you claim cancel culture is this huge problem, and mention a Harvard professor not having one of his duties renewed, I think it's relevant to show how grotesquely out of proportion it is with the George Floyd protests. > You keep asserting this. You don't show evidence for this. I'm sorry: in what capacity have you been "working for police reform"? I'm really getting the feeling that that is an extremely inaccurate description of your job. I haven't shown evidence for the police brutality in the US because I assumed you were aware of it. Are you not? Do you not understand that police officers murdering peaceful protestors is an authoritarian crisis? > If you're interested in solving problems instead of stirring up anger then your interest should be in understanding the problem and not polarizing sides. All of the "solutions" for how to stop police violence which come from American police amount to (surprisingly) giving the police more money. Kind of like how all of the "solutions" to gun violence involve giving more people guns (teachers, cops, etc.) The way to curb police violence is to defund and demilitarise the police. This is what has worked in places outside of the US, and this is the only realistic approach. > 1. https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/effect-higher-educa.. https://nij.ojp.gov/library/publications/effect-higher-educa.... > > 2. https://inpublicsafety.com/2014/07/how-education-impacts-pol.. https://inpublicsafety.com/2014/07/how-education-impacts-pol.... This is not evidence for the claim that defunding the police causes a spike in crime. > That has nothing to do with this topic. Mass imprisonment is absolutely relevant to the question of the authoritarian nature of the police. > Violence is not something to be proud of. You can't think of a single instance of violent protest that you'd be proud of? > You talk so much against authoritarianism, but violence is the fundamental tool of it. It's difficult to take you seriously on the issue of police violence when you have yet to even acknowledge the horrific and obvious police brutality during the protests.

skellington 6y ago

Rioters aren't protesters and there is nothing even close to "brutal" happening to the rioters. If anything, the state is showing remarkable restraint. Imagine if this shit was happening in China or Russia. If you/they get what you want out of all of this, a neo-marxist-anarcho-commune-socialist-green-whatever, no-rules, but lots of rules enforced randomly by the mob, THEN you'll see real brutal-ism like you saw in CHAZ when the 'security' force gunned down two teenagers who were joy riding in a stolen car. The fact that current rioters have no real fear is because they know that the police are extremely restrained in what they do. Getting tear gassed or (rarely) hit with a baton/bean-bag is nothing close to what real brutality is. Also, the fact that you are not aware of the deep reaches of cancel culture today is because you are aggressively conformist with your peer group so you only get your information from sources that are deeply filtered.

oisdk 6y ago
> there is nothing even close to "brutal" happening to the rioters. If you aren't going to believe me, and if you're not going to believe your eyes with regards to the multiple clear videos of police brutality, then maybe you should listen to the multiple international human rights organisations which have called for an end to the police brutality? I mean what would even convince you that the police are brutalising protestors? What evidence are you missing? Surely there is just as much evidence for the US brutalising its citizens as there is for China or Russia doing so? (I am not saying the level of brutality is the same, mind you) To be honest with you it's difficult to have a conversation with someone so out of touch with reality in this way: if you can't see that the US police are brutalising protestors you're maybe too far gone. > The fact that current rioters have no real fear is because they know that the police are extremely restrained in what they do. How many people have the police killed since the protests began? > Getting tear gassed or (rarely) hit with a baton/bean-bag is nothing close to what real brutality is. You know people were killed by tear gas? You know people lost eyes from rubber bullets? > Also, the fact that you are not aware of the deep reaches of cancel culture today is because you are aggressively conformist with your peer group so you only get your information from sources that are deeply filtered. In contrast to you, the well-read worldly individual who gets their news from news.ycombinator.com. Go on, then: tell me about the horrific cases of cancel culture which I was shielded from in my bubble.

Vomzor 6y ago

>So the only actual example I was able to google here was the last one: and I have to say, is that it? 125 examples (so far) of regular people losing their job or being threatened for thoughtcrime: https://twitter.com/SoOppressed/status/1282404647160942598 https://twitter.com/SoOppressed/status/1282404647160942598

im3w1l 6y ago

> Like you realise the protests were sparked off by a murder, right? It wasn't a murder. I suggest you read the transcript from Lane's body camera. Key points: * Lane approaches George Floyd asks him to show his hands. Floyd is so high, he has difficulty complying. * They take him out of his car and try to get him in the police car. * Floyd claims he can't breathe and begs to be allowed to lie on the ground. * They call the ambulance (unclear if this is before after he is put on the ground). * He keeps talking for a few minutes, before losing consciousness. https://www.fox9.com/news/transcript-of-officers-body-camera-shows-george-floyd-told-officers-i-cant-breathe-before-being-restrained https://www.fox9.com/news/transcript-of-officers-body-camera...

jonny_eh 6y ago
Wow, the police were so helpful!
RonaldRaygun 6y ago
Wow, that was so nice of the police to let him lie down when he asked. Then to thoughtfully apply a knee to his neck to prevent him from flying up into the sky if gravitational attraction were to suddenly reverse, so very helpful and just! And they kept at it for almost 9 minutes, such dedication to helping the public, wow.