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Democracy? With guys like Victor Orban? Nope. You think you live in a democracy but it is something else entirely. I'm not playing smart. I'm a Greek myself an

Democracy? With guys like Victor Orban? Nope. You think you live in a democracy but it is something else entirely. I'm not playing smart. I'm a Greek myself and our govt is mimicking Orban to a large degree. TBH I'm afraid that democracy is going down the drain for most of EU anyway. The way yellow-vests were treated in "democratic" France (hint: plastic bullets shot at demostrators' eyes) kind of convinced me on that one. As for Greece, well, yeah. You won't find anything but praise for the govt in the mass media. A few fringe ones daring the other side of events survive on readers subscriptions. All tied up in a tightly knitted nexus of political friends, family, friendly businessmen, huge debt (govt party has a massive debt on its own as most mass media also do), ever expanding police-state, religious leaders (Orthodox Christian Church) and God knows whom else. So, anyway, all the best...

sn41 6y ago
This is the current normal in many countries. Actually many of these have been empowered by some kind of internet troll movement. The emergence of such parties is eerily similar - an overwhelming majority who is peeved at some designated and vilified minority getting even minor privileges. Plus a lot of ranting against left liberalism and globalism. They conveniently forget the fact that such egalitarian viewpoints have more or less assured a stable 75 years in recent world history. Nearly a century of peace in large parts of the world - this has been a great achievement unprecedented in the last 500 years. Unfortunately for us, I think since Internet 2.0, this trend has been exacerbated by the echo chambers which constitute most social media.
- Accujack 6y ago
  >Actually many of these have been empowered by some kind of internet troll movement. It's not a "movement". It's information warfare enabled by the fact that most information sources online don't even give lip service to the idea of separating propaganda and manipulation from honest public discussion. The Russians are (obviously) getting very good at this, and other countries like China aren't far behind. Until companies like Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, and others recognize that protecting public discussion from interference isn't optional, you can expect this to continue.
  - sn41 6y ago
    It's not just such countries. All political parties all around the world are doing similar things, and have their own troll farms and twitter armies. Look up the profiles of the "followers" of major world leaders. Many of them are 'shallow' - not old enough as profiles, and not enough activity. It's naïve to think that companies are unaware of this. I think they actively encourage this outrage-fest, because it increases eyeballs. We are paying a heavy social price for a flawed advertisement revenue model. You can look up the documentary on Cambridge Analytica. The logo _most_ prominently displayed the CEO's office is that of major Indian political party. And that party is not even the top dog in this game.
  - samstave 6y ago
    Exactly. WWIII has already started - but its "hearts and minds" but with Corporatocracy and with covid being the opening salvo to drive fear and socially engineered behavior into the global populous. You cant control 7B people without first taking over their minds.... (emotions and behaviors)
    - samstave 6y ago
      OOOOOOH the chinese shills have arrived. HN is compromised.
      - samstave 6y ago
        Give me an fn break @Dang prove chinese are not here
  - vkou 6y ago
    The Russians didn't start this brand of insanity in the US, it has been a cornerstone of Republican policy for the past ~12 years. (And has been present, on a lower-key note, for the prior 20. The toxic culture war isn't anything new - Reagan was fighting it against homosexuals[1] and welfare queens 40 years ago.) It's a monster of our own making. When politicians start courting that fringe, you get a virtuous cycle, where the fringe starts impacting policy, which emboldens and encourages more and more radicalization. [1] Look at the rhetoric surrounding the AIDS epidemic, and tell me if anything has changed.
- cma 6y ago
  > They conveniently forget the fact that such egalitarian viewpoints have more or less assured a stable 75 years in recent world history. Nearly a century of peace in large parts of the world - this has been a great achievement unprecedented in the last 500 years. Isn't a large part of this from nuclear detente?
peruvian 6y ago
I mean, we (US) helped set the stage for these kind of governments in Greece a few decades ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_junta#American_influence_in_Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_junta#American_influence...
- WillPostForFood 6y ago
  a few decades ago ~70 years ago.
  - horsemessiah 6y ago
    Check out Bolivia, Honduras, and the failed attempt at Venezuela for some more recent examples within the last 15 years.
    - WillPostForFood 6y ago
      Honduras? Obama was friendly to Zelaya and condemned the coup.
    - ertian 6y ago
      The "attempted coup" in Venezuela was a couple crazy dudes who got rounded up immediately. You think that represents an attempted coup by the American government?
      - alasdair_ 6y ago
        It definitely was NOT a "real" attempted coup with full US backing. That being said, the guy in charge of the coup ran security for Trump at many events and explicitly mentioned his relationship with the president when recruiting people. I suspect that there was tacit knowledge and approval of the attempt from a few people in government but it definitely wasn't a well-funded operation, backed by the US.
        mrandish 6y ago
edem 6y ago
I'm from Hungary and I agree. I don't think this is a democracy. In fact it never was. We never recovered from communism we just changed the old mafia to a new one.
- kantord 6y ago
  "recovered from communism" Recover what? You say it as if what was before communism was better than communism. Communism was probably the best system ever to exist in Hungary up until 1989, at least it was certainly the best to last. It wasn't democratic by any means, but to me it's weird to say "recovered from communism", as if there was something before communism to recover.
  - WaitWaitWha 6y ago
    May I suggest you re-evaluate your history reference material?
    - kantord 6y ago
      Which pre-communist political system of Hungary do you wish to recover?
  - kantord 6y ago
    To the person who downvoted I ask, which pre-1989 political system of Hungary was better than communism? Hungary exists as an independent nation since 31 July 1921. Since then, these are the political systems that lasted any significant amount of time: - Kingdom of Hungary: created anti-semitic laws before the nazis, waged wars of conquest against it's neighbors and collaborated with the Nazi regime, perpetrator of Holocaust - 1944 until the end of world war: Nazi control of Hungary, perpetrator of Holocaust - until 1989: a few years of Soviet military occupation, then Communism - since 1989 current system So which of the pre-communist political systems of Hungary is the one worth recovering in your opinion?
lgeorget 6y ago
At least, in France, in my opinion, it's becoming difficult to find favourable coverage of the government in the press, even in state-owned media. I find it neutral at best.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  At least you French have a decent and established culture of protesting, compared to us Germans...
  - heavenlyblue 6y ago
    My first question would be whether the culture of protesting and having constantly negative coverage of the government makes any difference in a country full of old money.
    - vkou 6y ago
      I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes, but given that France is on its fifth republic in 200 years, it certainly seems to be capable of changing how its governed.
      - rStar 6y ago
        or, was, before the internet enabled fascism to the extent that it has.
        vkou 6y ago
        We've yet to see that proven conclusively.
        munk-a 6y ago
        I feel like one the best examples of out-spoken minority rules might be the recent rabid defense of confederate statues. I agree that we have yet to see conclusive evidence - but we've got a whole bunch of strong indicators including my absolute least favorite: rampant nepotism.
albuquerque 6y ago
Exactly like in Portugal, except for the religious leaders.
- girishso 6y ago
  And India, but includes religious leaders.
jariel 6y ago
A democracy doesn't give you the right to block traffic and public transportation every weekend because you think you have an important cause.
- coliveira 6y ago
  Yes, it does. It may be inconvenient, but that is part of the democratic game. The option is to live in an authoritarian regime.
  - jariel 6y ago
    " but that is part of the democratic game. The option is to live in an authoritarian regime." Both of those statements a very false.
  - GijsjanB 6y ago
    No it doesn't. Democracy means you have the freedom (free press, independent judicial system, etc) to vote for the government you want. It doesn't mean you get the government you want. And it surely doesn't mean you get to block something because you don't get what you want. A democracy is not a kindergarten.
    - coliveira 6y ago
      If people are in the street demonstrating, this is a sign that something is not right. Unless there is some mental disease going on, people will not let their fulfilling lives to be protesting against living conditions. This is a sign that something is broken and should be fixed, which is the whole of government, even if that government is not the one that I voted for. This is democracy 101.
      - gwright 6y ago
        This is a confused argument to me and I think many other comments in this thread are similarly confused. By confused I don't necessarily mean "wrong" but more like "muddled" or hard to understand. I'm coming at this from a US point of view but would be interested in hearing other perspectives. In casual use I think "democracy" is best understood to mean the more technically accurate concept of "democratic republic" and additionally that there are a core set of individual rights that are not subject to infringement by the majority via legislation. One of the primary roles of the government is to protect those individual rights. The right to peaceful assembly, to free speech, to association, and to petition the government are all protected and foundational to what we might call "protesting" or "demonstrating". I think "democracy" is generally used as a short-hand to refer to this bundle of ideas and not to the concept of a "direct democracy" where "majority rules" is the operating principle with no limitations. But those rights aren't absolute and they have to be balanced with rights of others who aren't participating in the protest. If your group is no longer peaceful, or your speech is inciting violence, or your group is unlawfully impeding the free movement of others, or your actions are in fact crimes against people or property then you are no longer engaging in protected activities. Blocking a public right-of-way without permission (like getting a parade permit, for example) is infringing on other people's rights and is not peaceful. It is not protected activity. It is dangerous and puts other people at risk. Similarly arson, vandalism, and other destruction of property is not part of the idea of "peaceful protest" and is not protected activity.
coliveira 6y ago
> The way yellow-vests were treated in "democratic" France (hint: plastic bullets shot at demonstrators' eyes) France is in no way behind the USA in repressing popular demonstrations.
- Bost 6y ago
  AFAIR in France nobody sent out paramilitary units to quell the protests - read: instigate violence and save his/her election. And that makes for a huge difference. But if you prefer to ignore the facts not supporting your interpretation, well then...
  - JetSpiegel 6y ago
    > AFAIR in France nobody sent out paramilitary units to quell the protests Only Benalla, the president's personal praetorian.
kebman 6y ago
I can't really speak for the media landscape of Hungary, but on a general basis a diverse media landscape that allows for different and even unpopular opinions, is very important for a functioning democracy, because, believe it or not, but Hungary is in fact a democracy. Unlike most other states in the EU, Orbán enjoys a clear parliamentary majority. That means that his policies enjoy wide support within the national assembly. Moreover, it means that whatever he proposes will be voted in much more easily. On the other hand, the Hungarian opposition owning such a small minority, may even feel oppressed because of it. This is why I think it's unfortunate if this alternative media outlet is indeed being pressured into being more polite towards the sitting government. But speaking of poor resources among alternative and fringe media may also be misleading. In some respects it is no different than the alternative media in Left leaning countries, such as Sweden or Norway. Over here it is the alternative Right Wing media that are on the brink of extinction, and Left Wing supporters are constantly calling for their defunding and cancellation, even resorting to call out or boycott businesses who dare advertise with them. This tactic certainly seems to have worked with the big tech companies. Moreover there seems to be little to no discussion in Left Wing media about the larger ongoing censorship happening in Western Europe and the USA. As such, some may even call this event welcome when compared to what is happening on giant platforms like Twitter, Google, Facebook or YouTube. However I'm unsure if fighting cancel culture with more cancel culture is a very bright idea.

sn41 6y ago

This is the current normal in many countries. Actually many of these have been empowered by some kind of internet troll movement. The emergence of such parties is eerily similar - an overwhelming majority who is peeved at some designated and vilified minority getting even minor privileges. Plus a lot of ranting against left liberalism and globalism. They conveniently forget the fact that such egalitarian viewpoints have more or less assured a stable 75 years in recent world history. Nearly a century of peace in large parts of the world - this has been a great achievement unprecedented in the last 500 years. Unfortunately for us, I think since Internet 2.0, this trend has been exacerbated by the echo chambers which constitute most social media.

Accujack 6y ago
>Actually many of these have been empowered by some kind of internet troll movement. It's not a "movement". It's information warfare enabled by the fact that most information sources online don't even give lip service to the idea of separating propaganda and manipulation from honest public discussion. The Russians are (obviously) getting very good at this, and other countries like China aren't far behind. Until companies like Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, and others recognize that protecting public discussion from interference isn't optional, you can expect this to continue.
- sn41 6y ago
  It's not just such countries. All political parties all around the world are doing similar things, and have their own troll farms and twitter armies. Look up the profiles of the "followers" of major world leaders. Many of them are 'shallow' - not old enough as profiles, and not enough activity. It's naïve to think that companies are unaware of this. I think they actively encourage this outrage-fest, because it increases eyeballs. We are paying a heavy social price for a flawed advertisement revenue model. You can look up the documentary on Cambridge Analytica. The logo _most_ prominently displayed the CEO's office is that of major Indian political party. And that party is not even the top dog in this game.
- samstave 6y ago
  Exactly. WWIII has already started - but its "hearts and minds" but with Corporatocracy and with covid being the opening salvo to drive fear and socially engineered behavior into the global populous. You cant control 7B people without first taking over their minds.... (emotions and behaviors)
  - samstave 6y ago
    OOOOOOH the chinese shills have arrived. HN is compromised.
    - samstave 6y ago
      Give me an fn break @Dang prove chinese are not here
- vkou 6y ago
  The Russians didn't start this brand of insanity in the US, it has been a cornerstone of Republican policy for the past ~12 years. (And has been present, on a lower-key note, for the prior 20. The toxic culture war isn't anything new - Reagan was fighting it against homosexuals[1] and welfare queens 40 years ago.) It's a monster of our own making. When politicians start courting that fringe, you get a virtuous cycle, where the fringe starts impacting policy, which emboldens and encourages more and more radicalization. [1] Look at the rhetoric surrounding the AIDS epidemic, and tell me if anything has changed.
cma 6y ago
> They conveniently forget the fact that such egalitarian viewpoints have more or less assured a stable 75 years in recent world history. Nearly a century of peace in large parts of the world - this has been a great achievement unprecedented in the last 500 years. Isn't a large part of this from nuclear detente?

peruvian 6y ago

I mean, we (US) helped set the stage for these kind of governments in Greece a few decades ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_junta#American_influence_in_Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_junta#American_influence...

WillPostForFood 6y ago
a few decades ago ~70 years ago.
- horsemessiah 6y ago
  Check out Bolivia, Honduras, and the failed attempt at Venezuela for some more recent examples within the last 15 years.
  - WillPostForFood 6y ago
    Honduras? Obama was friendly to Zelaya and condemned the coup.
  - ertian 6y ago
    The "attempted coup" in Venezuela was a couple crazy dudes who got rounded up immediately. You think that represents an attempted coup by the American government?
    - alasdair_ 6y ago
      It definitely was NOT a "real" attempted coup with full US backing. That being said, the guy in charge of the coup ran security for Trump at many events and explicitly mentioned his relationship with the president when recruiting people. I suspect that there was tacit knowledge and approval of the attempt from a few people in government but it definitely wasn't a well-funded operation, backed by the US.
      - mrandish 6y ago

edem 6y ago

I'm from Hungary and I agree. I don't think this is a democracy. In fact it never was. We never recovered from communism we just changed the old mafia to a new one.

kantord 6y ago
"recovered from communism" Recover what? You say it as if what was before communism was better than communism. Communism was probably the best system ever to exist in Hungary up until 1989, at least it was certainly the best to last. It wasn't democratic by any means, but to me it's weird to say "recovered from communism", as if there was something before communism to recover.
- WaitWaitWha 6y ago
  May I suggest you re-evaluate your history reference material?
  - kantord 6y ago
    Which pre-communist political system of Hungary do you wish to recover?
- kantord 6y ago
  To the person who downvoted I ask, which pre-1989 political system of Hungary was better than communism? Hungary exists as an independent nation since 31 July 1921. Since then, these are the political systems that lasted any significant amount of time: - Kingdom of Hungary: created anti-semitic laws before the nazis, waged wars of conquest against it's neighbors and collaborated with the Nazi regime, perpetrator of Holocaust - 1944 until the end of world war: Nazi control of Hungary, perpetrator of Holocaust - until 1989: a few years of Soviet military occupation, then Communism - since 1989 current system So which of the pre-communist political systems of Hungary is the one worth recovering in your opinion?

lgeorget 6y ago

At least, in France, in my opinion, it's becoming difficult to find favourable coverage of the government in the press, even in state-owned media. I find it neutral at best.

mschuster91 6y ago
At least you French have a decent and established culture of protesting, compared to us Germans...
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  My first question would be whether the culture of protesting and having constantly negative coverage of the government makes any difference in a country full of old money.
  - vkou 6y ago
    I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes, but given that France is on its fifth republic in 200 years, it certainly seems to be capable of changing how its governed.
    - rStar 6y ago
      or, was, before the internet enabled fascism to the extent that it has.
      - vkou 6y ago
        We've yet to see that proven conclusively.
        munk-a 6y ago
        I feel like one the best examples of out-spoken minority rules might be the recent rabid defense of confederate statues. I agree that we have yet to see conclusive evidence - but we've got a whole bunch of strong indicators including my absolute least favorite: rampant nepotism.

albuquerque 6y ago

Exactly like in Portugal, except for the religious leaders.

girishso 6y ago
And India, but includes religious leaders.

jariel 6y ago

A democracy doesn't give you the right to block traffic and public transportation every weekend because you think you have an important cause.

coliveira 6y ago
Yes, it does. It may be inconvenient, but that is part of the democratic game. The option is to live in an authoritarian regime.
- jariel 6y ago
  " but that is part of the democratic game. The option is to live in an authoritarian regime." Both of those statements a very false.
- GijsjanB 6y ago
  No it doesn't. Democracy means you have the freedom (free press, independent judicial system, etc) to vote for the government you want. It doesn't mean you get the government you want. And it surely doesn't mean you get to block something because you don't get what you want. A democracy is not a kindergarten.
  - coliveira 6y ago
    If people are in the street demonstrating, this is a sign that something is not right. Unless there is some mental disease going on, people will not let their fulfilling lives to be protesting against living conditions. This is a sign that something is broken and should be fixed, which is the whole of government, even if that government is not the one that I voted for. This is democracy 101.
    - gwright 6y ago
      This is a confused argument to me and I think many other comments in this thread are similarly confused. By confused I don't necessarily mean "wrong" but more like "muddled" or hard to understand. I'm coming at this from a US point of view but would be interested in hearing other perspectives. In casual use I think "democracy" is best understood to mean the more technically accurate concept of "democratic republic" and additionally that there are a core set of individual rights that are not subject to infringement by the majority via legislation. One of the primary roles of the government is to protect those individual rights. The right to peaceful assembly, to free speech, to association, and to petition the government are all protected and foundational to what we might call "protesting" or "demonstrating". I think "democracy" is generally used as a short-hand to refer to this bundle of ideas and not to the concept of a "direct democracy" where "majority rules" is the operating principle with no limitations. But those rights aren't absolute and they have to be balanced with rights of others who aren't participating in the protest. If your group is no longer peaceful, or your speech is inciting violence, or your group is unlawfully impeding the free movement of others, or your actions are in fact crimes against people or property then you are no longer engaging in protected activities. Blocking a public right-of-way without permission (like getting a parade permit, for example) is infringing on other people's rights and is not peaceful. It is not protected activity. It is dangerous and puts other people at risk. Similarly arson, vandalism, and other destruction of property is not part of the idea of "peaceful protest" and is not protected activity.

coliveira 6y ago

> The way yellow-vests were treated in "democratic" France (hint: plastic bullets shot at demonstrators' eyes) France is in no way behind the USA in repressing popular demonstrations.

Bost 6y ago
AFAIR in France nobody sent out paramilitary units to quell the protests - read: instigate violence and save his/her election. And that makes for a huge difference. But if you prefer to ignore the facts not supporting your interpretation, well then...
- JetSpiegel 6y ago
  > AFAIR in France nobody sent out paramilitary units to quell the protests Only Benalla, the president's personal praetorian.

kebman 6y ago

I can't really speak for the media landscape of Hungary, but on a general basis a diverse media landscape that allows for different and even unpopular opinions, is very important for a functioning democracy, because, believe it or not, but Hungary is in fact a democracy. Unlike most other states in the EU, Orbán enjoys a clear parliamentary majority. That means that his policies enjoy wide support within the national assembly. Moreover, it means that whatever he proposes will be voted in much more easily. On the other hand, the Hungarian opposition owning such a small minority, may even feel oppressed because of it. This is why I think it's unfortunate if this alternative media outlet is indeed being pressured into being more polite towards the sitting government. But speaking of poor resources among alternative and fringe media may also be misleading. In some respects it is no different than the alternative media in Left leaning countries, such as Sweden or Norway. Over here it is the alternative Right Wing media that are on the brink of extinction, and Left Wing supporters are constantly calling for their defunding and cancellation, even resorting to call out or boycott businesses who dare advertise with them. This tactic certainly seems to have worked with the big tech companies. Moreover there seems to be little to no discussion in Left Wing media about the larger ongoing censorship happening in Western Europe and the USA. As such, some may even call this event welcome when compared to what is happening on giant platforms like Twitter, Google, Facebook or YouTube. However I'm unsure if fighting cancel culture with more cancel culture is a very bright idea.