4 ms·

Is the EU more or less cohesive than 5 years ago? 10 years ago? What's the trend?

rsynnott 6y ago
It's complicated (TM). There was an arguably surprisingly large amount of cohesion over Brexit (possibly aided accidentally by Brexit figures who telegraphed their intention to exploit European division to screw up the process), but not so much over covid, say. For all the constant imminent doom of Europe predicted, though, public support for EU membership is actually quite high relative to historical values right now.
octodog 6y ago
There are a lot of factors at play. There are issues with anti-democratic governments in Poland and Hungary, COVID-19 has hit Southern states hard and obviously the UK has left. On the other hand, they did just agree to issuing collective debt for the first time, which is a major milestone in terms of a central budget. Notably, much of that money is to be given (not loaded) to member states hit hardest by COVID-19.
toyg 6y ago
The trend is to be more cohesive. This also means that some contradictions and contrasts cannot be ignored anymore and will have to be resolved. One of those was the British hostility to federalism, another was the need for shared debt to correct an unbalanced setup in the common currency - both have been resolved, albeit painfully. The next is probably the slow unpicking of Visegrad. There is no alternative to a stronger and more cohesive Europe. The rise of Putin, Xi Jinping, Trump, and FAANG, is focusing a lot of minds - the only hope to not get trampled by these giants, is to stick together as Europeans.
- edem 6y ago
  > slow unpicking of Visegrad What do you mean by that?
  - toyg 6y ago
    As proved by this very news item, some of the positions emerging from the Visegrad block of countries (technically Chzechia, Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia, but others band with them on some issues) are fundamentally illiberal and contrary to the spirit of democratic solidarity in the Union. For a long time, these countries have reaped the benefits of Union policies without making a real contribution; they enjoyed economic solidarity (by being the largest recipients of European funds) and then refused it on social and humanitarian policies (like sharing refugees). This is unsustainable in the long run.
    - edem 6y ago
      You know what is unsustainable in the long run? How the EU treats these countries. On the surface it seems that we're recipients of EU funds but for every EUR we have to pay back much much more.
      - toyg 6y ago
        I’m not sure I follow. These countries get back multiples of their membership fees, largely in infrastructure funds (i.e. there is no repayment). You can literally not take that money if you so wish.
        edem 6y ago
        In return you have to sacrifice a lot. Just to make an example we have to order stuff from EU countries (like buses and trains) instead of buying form our own companies because it is against "regulations". It is just an extortion racket behind the scenes.
        toyg 6y ago
        You have to run transparent bids for public works, yes, and buy stuff that is guaranteed not to kill your own citizens. This is actually a great way to root out local corruption and to force companies to innovate, rather than lazily relying on guaranteed local contracts. It also enables them to compete over the entire EU market, on a level playing field. And it's doing wonders for your economies, which have grown quickly and consistently.

It's complicated (TM). There was an arguably surprisingly large amount of cohesion over Brexit (possibly aided accidentally by Brexit figures who telegraphed their intention to exploit European division to screw up the process), but not so much over covid, say. For all the constant imminent doom of Europe predicted, though, public support for EU membership is actually quite high relative to historical values right now.

octodog 6y ago

There are a lot of factors at play. There are issues with anti-democratic governments in Poland and Hungary, COVID-19 has hit Southern states hard and obviously the UK has left. On the other hand, they did just agree to issuing collective debt for the first time, which is a major milestone in terms of a central budget. Notably, much of that money is to be given (not loaded) to member states hit hardest by COVID-19.

toyg 6y ago

The trend is to be more cohesive. This also means that some contradictions and contrasts cannot be ignored anymore and will have to be resolved. One of those was the British hostility to federalism, another was the need for shared debt to correct an unbalanced setup in the common currency - both have been resolved, albeit painfully. The next is probably the slow unpicking of Visegrad. There is no alternative to a stronger and more cohesive Europe. The rise of Putin, Xi Jinping, Trump, and FAANG, is focusing a lot of minds - the only hope to not get trampled by these giants, is to stick together as Europeans.

edem 6y ago
> slow unpicking of Visegrad What do you mean by that?
- toyg 6y ago
  As proved by this very news item, some of the positions emerging from the Visegrad block of countries (technically Chzechia, Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia, but others band with them on some issues) are fundamentally illiberal and contrary to the spirit of democratic solidarity in the Union. For a long time, these countries have reaped the benefits of Union policies without making a real contribution; they enjoyed economic solidarity (by being the largest recipients of European funds) and then refused it on social and humanitarian policies (like sharing refugees). This is unsustainable in the long run.
  - edem 6y ago
    You know what is unsustainable in the long run? How the EU treats these countries. On the surface it seems that we're recipients of EU funds but for every EUR we have to pay back much much more.
    - toyg 6y ago
      I’m not sure I follow. These countries get back multiples of their membership fees, largely in infrastructure funds (i.e. there is no repayment). You can literally not take that money if you so wish.
      - edem 6y ago
        In return you have to sacrifice a lot. Just to make an example we have to order stuff from EU countries (like buses and trains) instead of buying form our own companies because it is against "regulations". It is just an extortion racket behind the scenes.
        toyg 6y ago
        You have to run transparent bids for public works, yes, and buy stuff that is guaranteed not to kill your own citizens. This is actually a great way to root out local corruption and to force companies to innovate, rather than lazily relying on guaranteed local contracts. It also enables them to compete over the entire EU market, on a level playing field. And it's doing wonders for your economies, which have grown quickly and consistently.