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>Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. What about immigrants that arrived to the US with a suitcase and $

>Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. What about immigrants that arrived to the US with a suitcase and $100 in pocket?

dangus 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Who in the last generation or two has arrived to the US in that romanticized Ellis Island kind of way and not on an H1B? I have the answer: extremely poor non-white immigrants who are also not getting hired at tech companies, and are also facing issues with the system, whether it be difficulty with gaining legal status or cultural acceptance or something else (like, perhaps, being demonized and dehumanized in popular culture by a certain political party, and a president who explicitly asked for European immigrants rather than ones from “shithole countries” [1]). This might be perfectly “okay” for a country without an immigrant heritage and as a result an understandably homogenous population, but for one that celebrates an immigrant heritage it’s hypocritical to not be welcoming, inclusive, and most importantly invest in immigrants with equal education and career opportunities that lead to overall economic expansion. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-attacks-protections-for-immigrants-from-shithole-countries-in-oval-office-meeting/2018/01/11/bfc0725c-f711-11e7-91af-31ac729add94_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-attacks-protec...
elvongray 6y ago
You really can't compare the two cases. When you're born into that type of system, where your skin color is seen as less desirable, it's easy to develop inferiority complex and a lot of insecurities that will hinder ones will to reach for the top. I'm from a third world country where a lot of emigrants to the US tend to be more successful than the average Black American. It is easy to jump to the conclusion that they are lazy and all, but I have come to realize that we were not born or have parents that have been demoralised by the systemic racism common in the US
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dgudkov 6y ago
  At least you admit that the root cause is not poverty, but the mindset.
  - atoav 6y ago
    I don't think this hypothesis holds much water to be honest. The most effective way to get better jobs isn't to have the right mindset (although it helps), it is to know the right people who will think about you when something comes up. This is also where I could imagine race (and similar things play a huge role).
  - mav3rick 6y ago
    Let me leave you in the projects at age 10 with a poor family. Let's see how far your mindset takes you.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    Exactly. But the mindset behind the above comment to be precise.
  - BlackCherry 6y ago
    “it’s just a mindset”, takes all responsibility off of the ruling class and places it all on the backs individual. While I’m all for taking responsibility for oneself in a rigged system, I’m not going to pretend the system isn’t rigged and shouldn’t be fixed. Imagine if we promoted approaching flawed and broken software architecture like this.
    - djsumdog 6y ago
      > Imagine if we promoted approaching flawed and broken software architecture like this We do. All the time. It's why half the shit we work on is covered in a thick layer of technical debt and the other half is written in self contained microservices. A software stack from a company that's been around long enough is going to be more random, redundant and glued together than the processes in our evolutionary biology.
BelleOfTheBall 6y ago
The difference here is an immigrant is coming into the system of their own volition, while black people in the USA are born into the system. Both immigrants and black people (and many other groups indeed) suffer greatly but one has been pushed down for centuries and, while the methods are less obvious now, the economic inequality is rooted deep in the system and will affect people for generations to come.
ethanbond 6y ago
Lots of them make it nowhere great (though nowhere great in the US could still be vastly better than the conditions they came from). In any case, you’re acting like this is a sure path to a good life. It’s not. It’s a cultural trope.
coldtea 6y ago
They didn't have a large majority consider them inferior for long, or being bitter that they are not longer their slaves (like they were for their grandparents and earlier) and thinking "how dare they not know their place". Those immigrants also didn't have seggregation laws against them until the 70s...
- MagnumOpus 6y ago
  > They didn't have a large majority consider them inferior for long Arguably untrue, ask a Trump voter of your choice about whether they think Chinese or Latino looking people are inferior to whites... > seggregation laws against them until the 70s All the SV hiring we are talking about is people born in the 80s and 90s. How are those worse off than the SE Asian or middle eastern first/second generation immigrant who also possibly gets racially stereotyped in some places but doesn't have preferential privileged college admissions and special scholarships?
  - yetanta 6y ago
    > ask a Trump voter of your choice about whether they think Chinese or Latino looking people are inferior to whites They are not. There you have your answer. I would posit you have created a 'hallucination trump supporter' that does not exist.
- emiliobumachar 6y ago
  Consider the internment of Japanese during World War 2.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    "...we find large place effects on individual economic outcomes like income, education, socioeconomic status, house prices, and housing quality. People assigned to richer locations do better on all measures. Random location assignment affected intergenerational economic outcomes as well, with families assigned to more socially mobile areas... displaying lower cross-generational correlation in outcomes."[1] [1] https://scholar.harvard.edu/shoag/publications/long-run-causal-impact-place-evidence-income-and-mobility-effects-japanese https://scholar.harvard.edu/shoag/publications/long-run-caus...
rainbow-road 6y ago
> What about immigrants that arrived to the US with a suitcase and $100 in pocket? What about them? You haven't given the reader anything in the way of argument yet; you've just pointed at another group.
yardie 6y ago
What about them? The majority of immigrants do not arrive at the border with a suitcase and $100. But it makes a great story for the bootstraps demographic.
Bigpet 6y ago
Immigrants are a very self-selected group don't you think. Would you think that 100% of the people you know would either * have the ability to pass the legal immigration process of the US if they weren't citizens * have the courage and drive to fight for a better live by abandoning their status-quo situation and move to another country

>Historical discrimination has left black families much poorer than they would otherwise be. What about immigrants that arrived to the US with a suitcase and $100 in pocket?

dangus 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Who in the last generation or two has arrived to the US in that romanticized Ellis Island kind of way and not on an H1B? I have the answer: extremely poor non-white immigrants who are also not getting hired at tech companies, and are also facing issues with the system, whether it be difficulty with gaining legal status or cultural acceptance or something else (like, perhaps, being demonized and dehumanized in popular culture by a certain political party, and a president who explicitly asked for European immigrants rather than ones from “shithole countries” [1]). This might be perfectly “okay” for a country without an immigrant heritage and as a result an understandably homogenous population, but for one that celebrates an immigrant heritage it’s hypocritical to not be welcoming, inclusive, and most importantly invest in immigrants with equal education and career opportunities that lead to overall economic expansion. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-attacks-protections-for-immigrants-from-shithole-countries-in-oval-office-meeting/2018/01/11/bfc0725c-f711-11e7-91af-31ac729add94_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-attacks-protec...

elvongray 6y ago

You really can't compare the two cases. When you're born into that type of system, where your skin color is seen as less desirable, it's easy to develop inferiority complex and a lot of insecurities that will hinder ones will to reach for the top. I'm from a third world country where a lot of emigrants to the US tend to be more successful than the average Black American. It is easy to jump to the conclusion that they are lazy and all, but I have come to realize that we were not born or have parents that have been demoralised by the systemic racism common in the US

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dgudkov 6y ago
At least you admit that the root cause is not poverty, but the mindset.
- atoav 6y ago
  I don't think this hypothesis holds much water to be honest. The most effective way to get better jobs isn't to have the right mindset (although it helps), it is to know the right people who will think about you when something comes up. This is also where I could imagine race (and similar things play a huge role).
- mav3rick 6y ago
  Let me leave you in the projects at age 10 with a poor family. Let's see how far your mindset takes you.
- coldtea 6y ago
  Exactly. But the mindset behind the above comment to be precise.
- BlackCherry 6y ago
  “it’s just a mindset”, takes all responsibility off of the ruling class and places it all on the backs individual. While I’m all for taking responsibility for oneself in a rigged system, I’m not going to pretend the system isn’t rigged and shouldn’t be fixed. Imagine if we promoted approaching flawed and broken software architecture like this.
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    > Imagine if we promoted approaching flawed and broken software architecture like this We do. All the time. It's why half the shit we work on is covered in a thick layer of technical debt and the other half is written in self contained microservices. A software stack from a company that's been around long enough is going to be more random, redundant and glued together than the processes in our evolutionary biology.

BelleOfTheBall 6y ago

The difference here is an immigrant is coming into the system of their own volition, while black people in the USA are born into the system. Both immigrants and black people (and many other groups indeed) suffer greatly but one has been pushed down for centuries and, while the methods are less obvious now, the economic inequality is rooted deep in the system and will affect people for generations to come.

ethanbond 6y ago

Lots of them make it nowhere great (though nowhere great in the US could still be vastly better than the conditions they came from). In any case, you’re acting like this is a sure path to a good life. It’s not. It’s a cultural trope.

coldtea 6y ago

They didn't have a large majority consider them inferior for long, or being bitter that they are not longer their slaves (like they were for their grandparents and earlier) and thinking "how dare they not know their place". Those immigrants also didn't have seggregation laws against them until the 70s...

MagnumOpus 6y ago
> They didn't have a large majority consider them inferior for long Arguably untrue, ask a Trump voter of your choice about whether they think Chinese or Latino looking people are inferior to whites... > seggregation laws against them until the 70s All the SV hiring we are talking about is people born in the 80s and 90s. How are those worse off than the SE Asian or middle eastern first/second generation immigrant who also possibly gets racially stereotyped in some places but doesn't have preferential privileged college admissions and special scholarships?
- yetanta 6y ago
  > ask a Trump voter of your choice about whether they think Chinese or Latino looking people are inferior to whites They are not. There you have your answer. I would posit you have created a 'hallucination trump supporter' that does not exist.
emiliobumachar 6y ago
Consider the internment of Japanese during World War 2.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  "...we find large place effects on individual economic outcomes like income, education, socioeconomic status, house prices, and housing quality. People assigned to richer locations do better on all measures. Random location assignment affected intergenerational economic outcomes as well, with families assigned to more socially mobile areas... displaying lower cross-generational correlation in outcomes."[1] [1] https://scholar.harvard.edu/shoag/publications/long-run-causal-impact-place-evidence-income-and-mobility-effects-japanese https://scholar.harvard.edu/shoag/publications/long-run-caus...

rainbow-road 6y ago

> What about immigrants that arrived to the US with a suitcase and $100 in pocket? What about them? You haven't given the reader anything in the way of argument yet; you've just pointed at another group.

yardie 6y ago

What about them? The majority of immigrants do not arrive at the border with a suitcase and $100. But it makes a great story for the bootstraps demographic.

Bigpet 6y ago

Immigrants are a very self-selected group don't you think. Would you think that 100% of the people you know would either * have the ability to pass the legal immigration process of the US if they weren't citizens * have the courage and drive to fight for a better live by abandoning their status-quo situation and move to another country