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Can anyone explain how the term "Karen" isn't both racist and sexist at the same time? I hadn't heard of it until a few months ago, and now it seems everyone i

Can anyone explain how the term "Karen" isn't both racist and sexist at the same time? I hadn't heard of it until a few months ago, and now it seems everyone is using it to refer to a certain kind of "middle class white woman". A term like that to describe a certain kind of middle class asian or black man would be very offensive. Are the days where we try to exercise civility and empathy gone? It feels like society has gone from "let's tolerate people" to "let's ridicule people we don't like, without logical argument". Blaming the disappearance of tiny businesses in residential neighborhoods by saying "It's all those middle class white women" seems both very shallow and specious.

KMag 6y ago
It's definitely sexist and racist. I think usage of the term shot up following the incident a couple months back where a white woman explicitly tried to use faked fear to weaponize police against a black man telling her to leash her dog in Central Park. Combined with the current prominence of Black Lives Matter and some older similar incidents of white women calling police on black people, the racist sexist meme has really taken off.
dagurp 6y ago
Amen. Childish name-calling like this and "ok boomer" are being used to dismiss anything a person says because they're older.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  You are really tempting fate with this comment...
xvedejas 6y ago
I don't disagree that this hazard is real, but I also see the term used in non-racist, non-sexist ways too, sometimes with disclaimers that "obviously this isn't just white women and not all white women are like this". I realize I am likely in the minority thinking that context matters, but I want to provide my sincere stance that I think it's sometimes reasonable to call someone a Karen, assuming proper care is taken not to imply anything sexist or racist. I understand the term as meaning "busybody" more than anything else; in fact, you can use it to describe a person of any race or sex but you cannot use it for a non-busybody.
- concordDance 6y ago
  I've seen "nigger" used in a non-racist way (even followed up later with a "obviously this isn't just black people and not all black people are like this"), but still wouldn't recommend its general use.
- bbarnett 6y ago
  The problem is, people used to have non-gender, non-racial terms for people. For example, a person might be called an 'asshole' or 'bonehead', and this could be a person of any colour, any sex, age, etc. Yet now, it seems all sorts are labeling people based upon sex, colour, ethnic background, etc. It is, quite literally, the definition of sexual, racial, age discrimination. It is linking "external characteristic" with "way a person acts". I don't care what anyone's political stance is, but if you are using terms like 'Karen', you are 100% contributing to sexism, racism, etc. Just call someone what they are. "Asshole" has worked fine for millennia.
  - xvedejas 6y ago
    I agree that the term "Karen" has its genesis as an insult, and one designed to effectively aggravate the people it describes. It's not surprising to me that it's a word people reach for when they want the impact that words like "asshole" have lost. I don't know why you would call someone an "asshole" if you want to be genuinely mean. "Asshole" is as common as salt in our everyday language, but "Karen" is the spice.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > Just call someone what they are. "Asshole" has worked fine for millennia. Except that Karens and assholes are different. Karens can be assholes, sure, but a Karen is a specific type of asshole. Football hooligans may be assholes but they're generally not Karens. It means something different, and there isn't another word that means the same thing.
    - bbarnett 6y ago
      Unless a 'Karen' can be an elderly aging Asian man, it's sexist, ageish and racist. Here's a few other such terms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs A lot of these terms link specific behaviour, to specific ethnic/sex/cultural groups. I guess they're OK too? I find it utterly disgusting, that some people think some things are 'one way'. That racism is OK, but only "one way". Sexism is OK, but only against men. The list goes on. Let's see how long you last, if you see a lazy black person (they exist, like lazy people exist everywhere)... and you spout out "Bluegum!" Is that OK? No? Then why is it OK with 'Karen'? You'd don't cure social ills by creating more of them. "An eye for an eye, leaves the whole world blind." is highly accurate, I think.
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> Can anyone explain how the term "Karen" isn't both racist and sexist at the same time? Sure. It's in the same way that "rapper" isn't both racist and sexist at the same time, even though when someone says "rapper" the image that comes into your mind is of a black man. Except that the connotation of "Karen" is strictly negative, so the people so described want to (archetypically in this case) take offense to it. But, like rappers, Karens don't actually have to be of a particular race or gender, even if the stereotypical combination is the most common. It's racist and sexist to assume that all Karens are white women. Some rappers are Karens. So "the disappearance of tiny businesses in residential neighborhoods" isn't attributable to "all those middle class white women" so much as all those busybodies on the zoning board who want to tell everybody where not to set up shop, i.e. Karens (of whatever race and gender).
- quietbritishjim 6y ago
  > so the people so described want to ... take offense to it. This is very much a straw man. If I see a term that is derogatory towards black people, I have every right to object even though I'm not black. And if I see a term that is derogatory towards women, I have every right to object, even though I'm not a woman. In fact you seem to be claiming, in this case, that you would only ever object to the term "Karen" if you actually have the characteristics that the term refers to. If true, that would simply invalidate the opinion of everyone who objects. But, just like with race and gender, you can object to that term even if its implied meaning genuinely doesn't match your personality type. Especially if you're objecting to the specific term, not to the principle of insulting that personality type. Edit: to make it a bit more concrete, imagine the term "little black men" had been used instead. Upon objection, you replied "no, no, no, the term term doesn't necessarily refer to actual black men, just people that behave a bit like black men". That is very much what the term "Karen" is like.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > If I see a term that is derogatory towards black people, I have every right to object even though I'm not black. Karen isn't derogatory to women, it's only derogatory to Karens. There is no implication that women are all Karens, only that Karens are contemptible. > In fact you seem to be claiming, in this case, that you would only ever object to the term "Karen" if you actually have the characteristics that the term refers to. But, just like with race and gender, you can object to that term even if its implied meaning genuinely doesn't match your personality type. Except that race and gender aren't personality types, whereas that's exactly what "Karen" is, and it's just the personality type that would object to the term. > to make it a bit more concrete, imagine the term "little black men" had been used instead. Upon objection, you replied "no, no, no, the term term doesn't necessarily refer to actual black men, just people that behave a bit like black men". That is very much what the term "Karen" is like. The analogy to "little black men" would be something like "white female busybodies" which is completely different because it's putting the focus specifically on that race and gender.
impendia 6y ago
> Can anyone explain how the term "Karen" isn't both racist and sexist at the same time? It is. There are plenty of decent people named Karen who do not deserve to have their name appropriated as an insult. Better to say "entitled jerk" or something similar. That way, the only person you're insulting is whomever you're calling a jerk.
badgerigar 6y ago
It may be racist and sexist, but it is also true. Pretty much all rapists are men, but we don't let fear of sexism stop us from pointing this out. Likewise, Karen behaviour is found pretty much exclusively in (a small subset of) white (and Asian?) women. Nearly everybody who has worked retail can recognise the type and pretending it doesn't exist is not virtuous.
- CincinnatiMan 6y ago
  You say Karens are always white or Asian. Would it be ok if we came up with a name for Black jerks, or Hispanic jerks?
scott_w 6y ago
> Can anyone explain how the term "Karen" isn't both racist and sexist at the same time? Because it’s tied to behaviour. Stop behaving like an a-hole and you stop being called a Karen. You can’t stop being black or a woman. That’s the key difference.
- ramblerman 6y ago
  > Because it’s tied to behaviour. We wouldn't call illegal gardeners a Hernandez, or terrorists from the middle east Mohammeds. Those are behaviors too. What makes it wrong is picking an ethnic name to associate with that behavior. Karen is a euphemism for suburban, white, female.
  - scott_w 6y ago
    Except for the second part: you’ve never been discriminated against for being white. The sexist part doesn’t really fit for me either, as we generally reserve insults for genders too. Bitch vs bastard are prime examples. By the way, the male version of “Karen” in my part of the world is much worse.
koolba 6y ago
It’s both racist and sexist but the people advocating it’s usage don’t actually care about either issue. I think it’s filed under the general hypocrisy that you cannot be racist against white people. Using a name meant to paint a picture of a suburban white woman is no different than describing someone as a Jamal, Yousef, Goku, Carlucci, Vladimir, Shenequa, Herschel, or Juan. If a news outlet used any of those names to describe a person in a news story they’d be immediately flagged as racist. And yet we see the term used to describe white woman gracing articles on the front page of even the NY Times.
coffeeling 6y ago
I've always seen it as referring to a certain kind of insufferable, entitled customer that demands to see the manager. Usually presumed to be a middle-aged white woman, yes, but the weight was on insufferable behavior, not demographics, at least originally. Suddenly people have started complaining about it as being heavily about race/sex and being bigoted, when the original was just codeword for asshole.
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  There are too many people named Karen for it not to become offensive to those people at least.
jessaustin 6y ago
Middle-class white women also suffer the Karens. They might suffer less on a per-encounter basis but they have lots more encounters with Karens so it might even out. If you haven't suffered the Karens, you might be a Karen... When could society ever be characterized by an ethos of "let's tolerate people"? ISTM that now anyone might receive for criticism for objectionable behavior, not just poor black young men.

KMag 6y ago

It's definitely sexist and racist. I think usage of the term shot up following the incident a couple months back where a white woman explicitly tried to use faked fear to weaponize police against a black man telling her to leash her dog in Central Park. Combined with the current prominence of Black Lives Matter and some older similar incidents of white women calling police on black people, the racist sexist meme has really taken off.

dagurp 6y ago

Amen. Childish name-calling like this and "ok boomer" are being used to dismiss anything a person says because they're older.

jessaustin 6y ago
You are really tempting fate with this comment...

xvedejas 6y ago

I don't disagree that this hazard is real, but I also see the term used in non-racist, non-sexist ways too, sometimes with disclaimers that "obviously this isn't just white women and not all white women are like this". I realize I am likely in the minority thinking that context matters, but I want to provide my sincere stance that I think it's sometimes reasonable to call someone a Karen, assuming proper care is taken not to imply anything sexist or racist. I understand the term as meaning "busybody" more than anything else; in fact, you can use it to describe a person of any race or sex but you cannot use it for a non-busybody.

concordDance 6y ago
I've seen "nigger" used in a non-racist way (even followed up later with a "obviously this isn't just black people and not all black people are like this"), but still wouldn't recommend its general use.
bbarnett 6y ago
The problem is, people used to have non-gender, non-racial terms for people. For example, a person might be called an 'asshole' or 'bonehead', and this could be a person of any colour, any sex, age, etc. Yet now, it seems all sorts are labeling people based upon sex, colour, ethnic background, etc. It is, quite literally, the definition of sexual, racial, age discrimination. It is linking "external characteristic" with "way a person acts". I don't care what anyone's political stance is, but if you are using terms like 'Karen', you are 100% contributing to sexism, racism, etc. Just call someone what they are. "Asshole" has worked fine for millennia.
- xvedejas 6y ago
  I agree that the term "Karen" has its genesis as an insult, and one designed to effectively aggravate the people it describes. It's not surprising to me that it's a word people reach for when they want the impact that words like "asshole" have lost. I don't know why you would call someone an "asshole" if you want to be genuinely mean. "Asshole" is as common as salt in our everyday language, but "Karen" is the spice.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > Just call someone what they are. "Asshole" has worked fine for millennia. Except that Karens and assholes are different. Karens can be assholes, sure, but a Karen is a specific type of asshole. Football hooligans may be assholes but they're generally not Karens. It means something different, and there isn't another word that means the same thing.
  - bbarnett 6y ago
    Unless a 'Karen' can be an elderly aging Asian man, it's sexist, ageish and racist. Here's a few other such terms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs A lot of these terms link specific behaviour, to specific ethnic/sex/cultural groups. I guess they're OK too? I find it utterly disgusting, that some people think some things are 'one way'. That racism is OK, but only "one way". Sexism is OK, but only against men. The list goes on. Let's see how long you last, if you see a lazy black person (they exist, like lazy people exist everywhere)... and you spout out "Bluegum!" Is that OK? No? Then why is it OK with 'Karen'? You'd don't cure social ills by creating more of them. "An eye for an eye, leaves the whole world blind." is highly accurate, I think.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

> Can anyone explain how the term "Karen" isn't both racist and sexist at the same time? Sure. It's in the same way that "rapper" isn't both racist and sexist at the same time, even though when someone says "rapper" the image that comes into your mind is of a black man. Except that the connotation of "Karen" is strictly negative, so the people so described want to (archetypically in this case) take offense to it. But, like rappers, Karens don't actually have to be of a particular race or gender, even if the stereotypical combination is the most common. It's racist and sexist to assume that all Karens are white women. Some rappers are Karens. So "the disappearance of tiny businesses in residential neighborhoods" isn't attributable to "all those middle class white women" so much as all those busybodies on the zoning board who want to tell everybody where not to set up shop, i.e. Karens (of whatever race and gender).

quietbritishjim 6y ago
> so the people so described want to ... take offense to it. This is very much a straw man. If I see a term that is derogatory towards black people, I have every right to object even though I'm not black. And if I see a term that is derogatory towards women, I have every right to object, even though I'm not a woman. In fact you seem to be claiming, in this case, that you would only ever object to the term "Karen" if you actually have the characteristics that the term refers to. If true, that would simply invalidate the opinion of everyone who objects. But, just like with race and gender, you can object to that term even if its implied meaning genuinely doesn't match your personality type. Especially if you're objecting to the specific term, not to the principle of insulting that personality type. Edit: to make it a bit more concrete, imagine the term "little black men" had been used instead. Upon objection, you replied "no, no, no, the term term doesn't necessarily refer to actual black men, just people that behave a bit like black men". That is very much what the term "Karen" is like.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > If I see a term that is derogatory towards black people, I have every right to object even though I'm not black. Karen isn't derogatory to women, it's only derogatory to Karens. There is no implication that women are all Karens, only that Karens are contemptible. > In fact you seem to be claiming, in this case, that you would only ever object to the term "Karen" if you actually have the characteristics that the term refers to. But, just like with race and gender, you can object to that term even if its implied meaning genuinely doesn't match your personality type. Except that race and gender aren't personality types, whereas that's exactly what "Karen" is, and it's just the personality type that would object to the term. > to make it a bit more concrete, imagine the term "little black men" had been used instead. Upon objection, you replied "no, no, no, the term term doesn't necessarily refer to actual black men, just people that behave a bit like black men". That is very much what the term "Karen" is like. The analogy to "little black men" would be something like "white female busybodies" which is completely different because it's putting the focus specifically on that race and gender.

impendia 6y ago

> Can anyone explain how the term "Karen" isn't both racist and sexist at the same time? It is. There are plenty of decent people named Karen who do not deserve to have their name appropriated as an insult. Better to say "entitled jerk" or something similar. That way, the only person you're insulting is whomever you're calling a jerk.

badgerigar 6y ago

It may be racist and sexist, but it is also true. Pretty much all rapists are men, but we don't let fear of sexism stop us from pointing this out. Likewise, Karen behaviour is found pretty much exclusively in (a small subset of) white (and Asian?) women. Nearly everybody who has worked retail can recognise the type and pretending it doesn't exist is not virtuous.

CincinnatiMan 6y ago
You say Karens are always white or Asian. Would it be ok if we came up with a name for Black jerks, or Hispanic jerks?

scott_w 6y ago

> Can anyone explain how the term "Karen" isn't both racist and sexist at the same time? Because it’s tied to behaviour. Stop behaving like an a-hole and you stop being called a Karen. You can’t stop being black or a woman. That’s the key difference.

ramblerman 6y ago
> Because it’s tied to behaviour. We wouldn't call illegal gardeners a Hernandez, or terrorists from the middle east Mohammeds. Those are behaviors too. What makes it wrong is picking an ethnic name to associate with that behavior. Karen is a euphemism for suburban, white, female.
- scott_w 6y ago
  Except for the second part: you’ve never been discriminated against for being white. The sexist part doesn’t really fit for me either, as we generally reserve insults for genders too. Bitch vs bastard are prime examples. By the way, the male version of “Karen” in my part of the world is much worse.

koolba 6y ago

It’s both racist and sexist but the people advocating it’s usage don’t actually care about either issue. I think it’s filed under the general hypocrisy that you cannot be racist against white people. Using a name meant to paint a picture of a suburban white woman is no different than describing someone as a Jamal, Yousef, Goku, Carlucci, Vladimir, Shenequa, Herschel, or Juan. If a news outlet used any of those names to describe a person in a news story they’d be immediately flagged as racist. And yet we see the term used to describe white woman gracing articles on the front page of even the NY Times.

coffeeling 6y ago

I've always seen it as referring to a certain kind of insufferable, entitled customer that demands to see the manager. Usually presumed to be a middle-aged white woman, yes, but the weight was on insufferable behavior, not demographics, at least originally. Suddenly people have started complaining about it as being heavily about race/sex and being bigoted, when the original was just codeword for asshole.

disgruntledphd2 6y ago
There are too many people named Karen for it not to become offensive to those people at least.

jessaustin 6y ago

Middle-class white women also suffer the Karens. They might suffer less on a per-encounter basis but they have lots more encounters with Karens so it might even out. If you haven't suffered the Karens, you might be a Karen... When could society ever be characterized by an ethos of "let's tolerate people"? ISTM that now anyone might receive for criticism for objectionable behavior, not just poor black young men.