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But what are you sacrificing in return for your “perseverance”? Very few people tend to look at the mind as a system, and also seem to ignore that depression,

But what are you sacrificing in return for your “perseverance”? Very few people tend to look at the mind as a system, and also seem to ignore that depression, anxiety, panic disorders, etc. happen for a reason. The reason why modern humanity have increased risk of these symptoms is because they know, given their perhaps wrongly learned models of the world or otherwise, that even when they achieve their so-called life goals, that they wouldn’t achieve philosophical nor psychological satisfaction that they seek. Their mind has predicted the conclusion of their efforts, and the conclusion lies far below what they seek. Thus the mind desperately attempts to re-understand, re-configure, and re-model the world to achieve its goals. But instead what is espoused by modern psychology and self-help is a kind of blind optimism or a horse blinders kind of approach to tending one’s mind. Most types of meditative studies also force this notion of blindness. Depression and anxiety and other “disorders” (whose classification from its onset is very unhelpful for its ideological integration into society as a valid problem to work through) most often happen to those who are sensitive, those who have surprisingly extensive models of the world, etc. But it has become very fashionable in SV intelligentsia and the communities that drink the intelligence soup that trickles down from the SV community (like other cities of America or other America-directed tech communities) to treat the mind as a dumb system that did a poor job evolving to a modern environment (e.g. rationality movement). Instead of understanding the mind (and consequently the body) as a system and listening to whatever small traces your mind has left in its great attempt to solve really important problems for you, we just blind ourselves to faux goals that we may not even actually want. Optimization for optimization’s sake is bad, but goal-seeking for goal-seeking’s sake may be a significantly worse and dangerous meme.

Swizec 6y ago
Reading Viktor Frankl’s book Man’s Search for Meaning has been the best thing I ever read on this topic. Changed my whole perspective. The tldr version goes something like: “Meaning is irrelevant, but humans need meaning to live. Pick any meaning you want. Doesn’t matter what, just choose something. Then go for it with all your might. If you ever find it wasn’t a good meaning, pick a new one. You’re a different person now anyway”
- loopz 6y ago
  Let's say one was caged in an unbreakable cage. Depression, anxiety, loneliness and boredom, would be natural reactions to such confinement. One could even say any opposite reactions wouldn't be fully human, something would be amiss. Being repressed and unable to do anything about it, often lead to depression and anxiety then. These things are sneaky, especially what is not readily visible to the eye. Now, even though depression and anxiety can have many causes, including the individual itself and one's reactions. We know humans and living beings need physical and mental stimulation. Thus activities such as dancing, singing, whatever would activate joy, can help break bad spells. We don't know beforehand either, what we could have capacity to enjoy, so should seek out diverse experiences and people with an open mind. Such tools may help to uncover a person's life's purpose. To find meaning, we need tools and other people as mirrors. We may even need to experience stuff we later actively decline, for many different reasons. Thinking too much or one's attitudes, can hamper and limit much more than a person might realize. It's easy to miss out of one own's life, by comparing and vying for other people's lives. Also even though one would be totally miserable with another's plights! So it is there, in-between activation and purpose, one need the reminder, that the purpose is not the end result. That life's not a journey. We alone judge good and bad, while life just is as it is regardless what we think and feel in each moment. Letting go of the destination and many concepts, we can realize it doesn't matter who is fully realized and perfect. That life happens perfectly every moment regardless, and that those who tell others what their meaning is, is full of * * * *.
- rashkov 6y ago
  I think Frankl’s is a more humanist version of that, in which meaning comes from service and obligation towards others.
- rkhassen9 6y ago
  Huh. I didn’t get that synopsis at all from Frankl’s book, “Mans Search for Meaning” it’s been a long time, maybe I need to re-read, but what I got was “you may not be able to change what happens to you, but you can change how you respond to it, and this gives you power”
  - 6y ago
nickff 6y ago
Perseverance often leads to a type of pseudo-meditation. When you work very hard towards a goal such as weight loss through exercise, you have to focus on one thing, and this can be almost meditative. This is one reason people find things like running or swimming to be 'relaxing', even though they're also 'tiring'.
- Aperocky 6y ago
  I don't have a reference but I read exercise generate dopamine and that's what gets people to like them.
  - nickff 6y ago
    That’s also true; it’s commonly known as a “runner’s high”.
    - WalterSear 6y ago
      The runner's high is understood to be a endocannabinoid/endorphin cascade. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-brain-effects-behind-runner-s-high/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-brain-effects... Dopamine is mostly involved in anticipatory qualia.
- charliemil4 6y ago
  This only works if the feedback loop is closed - as in you see a trend line, correlation, something (anything) that allows you to see value in your perseverance. If you get no feedback after years on end... watch out There are too many religions that glorify martyrdom where destruction of self can be seen as a honorable end. This when coupled with these grit narratives, make for very scary things. The internal dialog must be carefully tuned to a feedback system. And not just any feedback system, one of the individuals chasing (a is intentional). Without proper nurturing, one begins to lose the self - leading to many terrible things.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
pm90 6y ago
> Instead of understanding the mind (and consequently the body) as a system and listening to whatever small traces your mind has left in its great attempt to solve really important problems for you, we just blind ourselves to faux goals that we may not even actually want. Well, what might those problems be? What goals do we “really” want? For most of humanity, the majority of humans have had little options to change their predicament. Our brains evolved for hunting/gathering in tribes. A few thousand years ago we learned agriculture and started settling down. Very recently, we’ve improved the lives for a majority of humanity enabling many people, for the first time in our evolutionary existence, a choice in how to live their life. And that choice is either extremely empowering or terrifyingly debilitating. The self help industry has grown to serve this market. There’s definitely a lot of “positive mentality” stuff but we also have a lot of people that are benefiting hugely from getting help from mental health experts.
- Matumio 6y ago
  Our brains have evolved mainly for cultural knowledge accumulation over generations. We must learn any specific hunting/gathering skills from role models while growing up. We even learn from others what goals are worth achieving. We are right now learning from each other how to think about our goals and problems. This is not the first time humans have the choice of picking their goals. Even on an evolutionary scale we have always had cultural institutions to guide us with that (and/or exploit us). For example we have thousands of years of stories about worthy and unworthy goals.
  - pm90 6y ago
    Thousands of years is a really small time in the evolutionary history of modern humans.
derefr 6y ago
> seem to ignore that depression, anxiety, panic disorders, etc. happen for a reason ...no? In almost all cases, these syndromes are not appropriate responses to the environmental stimulus. OCD is not adaptive in any situation. Neither is Tourette's. Neither is anorexia nervosa. Neither is akinetic mutism. Neither is tardive dyskinesia. (Hypomania and ADHD-PI might be adaptive in exceptional environments — there's some fun hypotheses about that. But these are the exception. Most neurological conditions have no such "advantageous situation" where expressing the phenotype in a lifelong way—or even the constant lifelong potential to trigger the response—would be always advantageous to your reproductive success.) Instead, as we now understand, these syndromes happen almost always because of random genetic mutations to genes coding for proteins/enzymes responsible for creating, transporting, receiving, and destroying neurotransmitters. Like, for example, https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs53576 https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs53576. Get an A;A mutation, and your brain's ability to react to oxytocin is toast. (And this is common! And just look at all the reported downstream effects when it happens!) There's no purpose to this mutation. Just like there's no purpose for a gamma ray bit-flipping a DRAM memory cell. Your genes aren't set up carefully so that randomness will intentionally introduce this SNP every so often, to ensure there are some people like this in the population. Rather the opposite: your cellular machinery will, in fact, try as hard as possible to ensure that this mutation doesn't happen (with introns, redundant coding sites, gene silencing, etc.) And, to be even more clear, these are unfit mutations, that lower their subjects' reproductive success. They weed themselves out of the gene pool, rather than being passed on. Non-functioning versions of beneficial genes are always-recessive vs. their working versions, and so will be bred out of the gene pool. These are un-selfish genes. So, that (hopefully) being clear: why should my mind listen to the goals my broken brain is setting for me? I know better than it does. Like the fault-tolerant software running on a Mars rover "knows better" than the rover's individual CPUs do, blasted with radiation as they are. I, as a mind (and even better, I as a cyborg of mind + written storage), can perform the sort of long term comparative analysis of my own emotional states, that my brain on its own simply can't. And therefore, I know things about my brain that my brain doesn't. My brain isn't a wise old wizard with mysterious purposes, who I should trust to tell me what to do. It's an overclocked gaming PC during a brownout, that desperately needs a UPS.
- 6y ago
kerkeslager 6y ago
> But what are you sacrificing in return for your “perseverance”? Nothing that matters to you. If it mattered to you it would be a life goal. > The reason why modern humanity have increased risk of these symptoms is because they know, given their perhaps wrongly learned models of the world or otherwise, that even when they achieve their so-called life goals, that they wouldn’t achieve philosophical nor psychological satisfaction that they seek. You've added a ton of words which literally don't even mean anything in context. Let me whittle this down: > The reason why modern humans have increased risk of these symptoms is they know that even when they achieve their life goals, that they wouldn't achieve satisfaction. Okay, we found an actual claim. In his essay, Yes, We Have Noticed the Skulls, Scott Alexander notes that any intellectual movement that has been around for a while has made some mistakes, and is probably aware of them, so if there's some obvious failure of a movement, the people who still believe in the movement probably have learned from that failure. Communists are aware of Stalin murdering people and are wary of totalitarianism. Christians are aware of Torquemada torturing people and are wary of religious persecution. There are of course crazy communists and Christians who think Stalin and Torquemada were great, but they're not by any means the majority. If you talk to a communist and your big argument is "but, Stalin!" you're just showing exactly how outdated your knowledge is. This is no exception. If your big criticism of psychology is that achieving your goals can leave you feeling empty, well, let me assure you, psychologists are well aware of this, and have studied it at length. This is not the gotcha you think it is. There are two kinds of goals, process goals and outcome goals. Yes, outcome goals are likely to leave people feeling empty once the desired outcome achieved, which is why some psychologists think it's a good idea to focus on process goals instead. When you talk about "achieving" things and not feeling satisfaction, you're only talking about outcome goals, when there's a whole other type of goal that the article you're criticizing is probably talking about.
- avindroth 6y ago
  The discussion at hand is about the effects of “Perseverance towards life goals” when somebody has depression, anxiety, or what have you. The article mentions it is useful, and I can no doubt agree with that. It can be meditative, having a mission and all (perhaps one that you do not 100% agree with). It is satisfying, and can keep life afloat. But this “fake mission” trick should be just that — a trick. A placeholder in life for when things get real tough. A patch on your wound that helps the wound heal. The patch isn’t healing the wound, your body is. But people (e.g. self-help aficionados) become thoroughly entranced with this idea (among other bad ideas like growth mindset) that they lose sight of the fact that a patch is a patch, a bandage a bandage. It has outlived its usefulness, but people keep treating it as a real solution. Most often when people observe their mind they can dig up a lot of content. Depression, anxiety, and what have you are real things that you can explore and navigate. How to navigate and what to do with them is extremely difficult because we have never been taught how. We sort of induct what our parents and teachers do without explicitly categorizing/identifying what is going on in out minds. Most times we are running the same damn loop for the, what, millionth time in a row. The same situation, the same psychological response, the same result. Without even going into replication crisis, there are a lot of psychological theories and therapies that are sold, to others and even to the theorizer him/herself. The mind is a value-seeking machine that will not deter itself from using fiction to understand the world and get what it wants. Interestingly, the fiction of the mind acts as a patch itself, but it is never recognized by the self because the mind (most of the time) does it under the rug. So the patch sticks around and causes problems. The solution is to recognize that the mind can employ fiction and slowly but surely the mind will start doing these things overtly visibly to you (simply because it doesn’t have to hide it anymore). Stay on track with what the mind provides to you and be free about it (sometimes ignore it, hate it, listen to it, coddle it, be depressed, be anxious — to the mind emotions are generated and should be accepted without scores attached to them). Then the implicit goals will become explicit. But this hijacking of explicit goals without respecting implicit goals is pure whack.
lvturner 6y ago
I've spent a great deal of time and energy trying to set meaningful goals and progress towards things, then worry that I was progressing to the wrong thing and adjust goals etc. My current goal is simply to learn to be happy with what I have and who I am. As an indirect result of pursuing this I've found that loads of other goals and things that I've wanted to accomplish have become massively easier to progress on.
- disqard 6y ago
  I wish you continuous, steady progress in this endeavor! Like you, I try every day to view what I have through the lens of gratitude, and it helps me a lot.
- aspaviento 6y ago
  Could you elaborate on how those goals have become massively easier to progress on? is it because your mood and energy are better/greater?
  - lvturner 6y ago
    Yes, and I apologise if I veer off topic a bit, but I find all of these things below inter-related. I've found that creating more space in my brain (I am prone to suffering anxiety) removes the friction I have in starting tasks and increases the enjoyment I get out of them. Not only have goals become easier to progress on, but I've found that I can take on more. All of this is a work in progress though, some days/weeks/months are easier than others - but equally the more I learn the more tools I have to deal with setbacks. For me the things that have had a huge positive impact besides just changing my mind set are: Wim Hof Method - I felt this would be worth trying to improve my asthma, but I've found it taught me how to meditate too - using this as a spring board I'm exploring other and further meditation techniques. CBD Oil - this absolutely slayed my baseline anxiety, even if it turns out just to be a placebo, I place high weight on this simple act changing a lot for me. Exercise (also a goal) - towards the end of last year I was around ~90kg @ 182cm, I'm now around ~75kg with some decent muscle definition - I've focused mostly on bodybuilding, watching the change in the mirror and taking a few minutes to appreciate the changes and my own hard work have been hugely rewarding for me. Also the enordphine rush from some of the workouts is great too. Closely related to exercise is diet - this is something I am constantly paying attention to now (before I just didn't have the capacity and would happily chow down on McD's multiple times a week despite knowing how bad it was) changes in this impact not just my waist line but also my mood. Jewelry - I discovered that while it's unusual for most men to do so that wearing jewelery makes me happy, so I disregard what anyone else may think and now wear quite a bit on a daily basis. Might seem a bit off-beat, but it's been a recent personal discovery and I think borne out of focusing just a bit more on being "me" not some ideal projection of myself. Music (also a goal!), I've started to play the guitar again, I've had abortive attempts at this in the past but simply being able to say to myself "hey, I suck at this and it's OK because I enjoy it" has made it so much easier! Now, of course there are goals that I am still failing at - learning Mandarin for instance - but seeing the progress on the others and by applying strategies I've learned from one goal or area of self improvement I am hopeful that I will eventually crack it. Sorry if this diverted and went off topic, but I hope my experiences and rambling helps some people!
deerpig 6y ago
I disagree, perseverance is not the same as goal-seeking for goal seeking's sake, or at least, it doesn't have to be. Twenty years ago I set a thirty year goal, literally bet my life on it. It wasn't until two years ago that I was reasonably sure it had a chance of success. I had to, and continue to basically give up everything, no one funds very long term research, so I had to learn to live on less than $200 a month. No healthcare, not being able to buy a new pair of glasses, only being able to buy clothes once a year or so. But I found a university who believed in my work, gave me an office and a flat on campus outside of Phnom Penh and the freedom to follow the project wherever it went. No salary, but it's been enough. Perseverance is what keeps you sane, gets you up in the morning. It gets you through whatever is thrown at you. I have not had a happy or easy life, but it has been a life full of purpose. I have seen and done things that most people couldn't imagine, that has been, many times, too weird to be believable even as fiction. Perseverance is a skill you practice every day for the rest of your life. But there are many small compensations. You find kindness and beauty and from time to time pleasure in unexpected places along the way. With the university's help we will go to press with the first volume later this year, with a volume every year or so until it's finished on or about 2030. No one would willingly choose such a life, you fall into such things, and I was one of the stupid one's who took on such a ridiculously ambitious challenge. With a little luck I will live to see it through to the end. So for some, purpose and perseverance, trump happiness and comfort and security. Though I admit I am likely and edge case. I must say though, my wife and I sure as shit would like to live on a little more than $200 a month. :)
- avindroth 6y ago
  I think this is a definitional disagreement. If what you mean by perseverance is the skill you practice to keep yourself going (while overall aligned in the general direction), then yes, I am all for it. But often goal-seeking for goal-seeking’s sake is somewhat coerced on others in the name of virtue, perseverance, etc. The old advice of “do something, don’t just stand there” is the example I am talking about. But if you have found what you want to do and have set a reasonably long goal (30 years is dedication), then yes humans are imperfect and there will be bits and pieces of motivation still missing. But not many are fortunate to have this goal arising from within. I like the “shower thoughts” test. Are your goals what you think about in the shower? If yes, then that is probably what you want. Other story in the same line is “if you are trying to start a startup and you get discouraged by someone and consider not, you probably weren’t meant to do it in the first place.” (Peter Graham I think) You really can’t not have desires. You can have desires that you don’t want or invisible/preconscious desires, but strictly speaking a person can’t be more desirous (or, loosely, more passionate) than another. It’s like saying a piece of AI is half-invested into its utility function, it just doesn’t work like that.
whatnidnogg 6y ago
sacriciing nothing. perseverance is hard work. it's all it is. also i'm on twitter as nidnogg if you wanna know what hard work is yo i'll tweet you back if you like.
whatnidnogg 6y ago
cheers!
wiz21c 6y ago
I totally agree. I'd add this : of course it helps to have life goals because it helps to structure, to not get lost. But I'm confident that the vast majority of us doesn't have a life goal. Most of use figure out a new small goal from time to time. And we'd be so much better if we'd recognize that a non-heroic life is just as good as any other.
- indigochill 6y ago
  >And we'd be so much better if we'd recognize that a non-heroic life is just as good as any other. This is something I've struggled to come to terms with. But looking at my grandpa as an example, he had some plaques and things commemorating him in his local community after he died. He wasn't a hero and he didn't change the world (outside of, by all accounts, being a decent dad and husband), but he was an invested and involved member of his local community. I'm not the local community type (like being nomadic too much) but my parallel is contributing work to open source projects I use. It's not heroic or a big life goal, but it'll leave the open source community very slightly better than it would have been without me, and that's something.
carti 6y ago
> Most types of meditative studies also force this notion of blindness. In my experience, many seem to encourage the opposite (a higher awareness of one's emotional state). Perhaps certain techniques could be considered similar to horse blinders, but I definitely don't think "blindness" is the goal.
smattiso 6y ago
I mostly agree with what you have to you say. Clearly you have been through this and have gained a lot of wisdom along the way. We are all products of our environments and our goals arise from this. People who grow up in the Bay Area, or who read Hacker News, or who excel at STEM have "life goals" of running a startup. Some actually want that internally and others are just going through the motions. The latter will be miserable. It's also not something you can tough out and force on yourself. Either you want it or you don't, and that's a good thing! We are individuals after all. Where I disagree is that depression is caused by us being misaligned internally. Anybody who has been there knows that the brain can hijack your perception of the world. When you are depressed everything sucks. We live in an unexplainable universe with billions of assholes and we are all going to die so what's the point of anything? Nihilism takes over. You get more depressed. But once the fog lifts you can find the joy in life and appreciate all the stuff your "rational" depressed self thought was pointless. From my experience I think its best to not make these grand sweeping life goals in the first place. Take it day by and keep moving forward. What excites you today? What do you daydream about when you are in the shower? People who achieve these "great goals" do so via naturally gained momentum and almost nobody has a life goal that lasts for decades. You start with something, see if you like it, if you do keep that momentum rolling. It should be more natural, feel good, and not be contrived. Be easy on yourself and enjoy the ride. You don't have to be Steve Jobs and even he wasn't trying to be Steve Jobs. He just got the momentum going and kept with it. If it happens so be it but if you are miserable you are doing it wrong.

Swizec 6y ago

Reading Viktor Frankl’s book Man’s Search for Meaning has been the best thing I ever read on this topic. Changed my whole perspective. The tldr version goes something like: “Meaning is irrelevant, but humans need meaning to live. Pick any meaning you want. Doesn’t matter what, just choose something. Then go for it with all your might. If you ever find it wasn’t a good meaning, pick a new one. You’re a different person now anyway”

loopz 6y ago
Let's say one was caged in an unbreakable cage. Depression, anxiety, loneliness and boredom, would be natural reactions to such confinement. One could even say any opposite reactions wouldn't be fully human, something would be amiss. Being repressed and unable to do anything about it, often lead to depression and anxiety then. These things are sneaky, especially what is not readily visible to the eye. Now, even though depression and anxiety can have many causes, including the individual itself and one's reactions. We know humans and living beings need physical and mental stimulation. Thus activities such as dancing, singing, whatever would activate joy, can help break bad spells. We don't know beforehand either, what we could have capacity to enjoy, so should seek out diverse experiences and people with an open mind. Such tools may help to uncover a person's life's purpose. To find meaning, we need tools and other people as mirrors. We may even need to experience stuff we later actively decline, for many different reasons. Thinking too much or one's attitudes, can hamper and limit much more than a person might realize. It's easy to miss out of one own's life, by comparing and vying for other people's lives. Also even though one would be totally miserable with another's plights! So it is there, in-between activation and purpose, one need the reminder, that the purpose is not the end result. That life's not a journey. We alone judge good and bad, while life just is as it is regardless what we think and feel in each moment. Letting go of the destination and many concepts, we can realize it doesn't matter who is fully realized and perfect. That life happens perfectly every moment regardless, and that those who tell others what their meaning is, is full of * * * *.
rashkov 6y ago
I think Frankl’s is a more humanist version of that, in which meaning comes from service and obligation towards others.
rkhassen9 6y ago
Huh. I didn’t get that synopsis at all from Frankl’s book, “Mans Search for Meaning” it’s been a long time, maybe I need to re-read, but what I got was “you may not be able to change what happens to you, but you can change how you respond to it, and this gives you power”
- 6y ago

nickff 6y ago

Perseverance often leads to a type of pseudo-meditation. When you work very hard towards a goal such as weight loss through exercise, you have to focus on one thing, and this can be almost meditative. This is one reason people find things like running or swimming to be 'relaxing', even though they're also 'tiring'.

Aperocky 6y ago
I don't have a reference but I read exercise generate dopamine and that's what gets people to like them.
- nickff 6y ago
  That’s also true; it’s commonly known as a “runner’s high”.
  - WalterSear 6y ago
    The runner's high is understood to be a endocannabinoid/endorphin cascade. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-brain-effects-behind-runner-s-high/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-brain-effects... Dopamine is mostly involved in anticipatory qualia.
charliemil4 6y ago
This only works if the feedback loop is closed - as in you see a trend line, correlation, something (anything) that allows you to see value in your perseverance. If you get no feedback after years on end... watch out There are too many religions that glorify martyrdom where destruction of self can be seen as a honorable end. This when coupled with these grit narratives, make for very scary things. The internal dialog must be carefully tuned to a feedback system. And not just any feedback system, one of the individuals chasing (a is intentional). Without proper nurturing, one begins to lose the self - leading to many terrible things.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago

pm90 6y ago

> Instead of understanding the mind (and consequently the body) as a system and listening to whatever small traces your mind has left in its great attempt to solve really important problems for you, we just blind ourselves to faux goals that we may not even actually want. Well, what might those problems be? What goals do we “really” want? For most of humanity, the majority of humans have had little options to change their predicament. Our brains evolved for hunting/gathering in tribes. A few thousand years ago we learned agriculture and started settling down. Very recently, we’ve improved the lives for a majority of humanity enabling many people, for the first time in our evolutionary existence, a choice in how to live their life. And that choice is either extremely empowering or terrifyingly debilitating. The self help industry has grown to serve this market. There’s definitely a lot of “positive mentality” stuff but we also have a lot of people that are benefiting hugely from getting help from mental health experts.

Matumio 6y ago
Our brains have evolved mainly for cultural knowledge accumulation over generations. We must learn any specific hunting/gathering skills from role models while growing up. We even learn from others what goals are worth achieving. We are right now learning from each other how to think about our goals and problems. This is not the first time humans have the choice of picking their goals. Even on an evolutionary scale we have always had cultural institutions to guide us with that (and/or exploit us). For example we have thousands of years of stories about worthy and unworthy goals.
- pm90 6y ago
  Thousands of years is a really small time in the evolutionary history of modern humans.

derefr 6y ago

> seem to ignore that depression, anxiety, panic disorders, etc. happen for a reason ...no? In almost all cases, these syndromes are not appropriate responses to the environmental stimulus. OCD is not adaptive in any situation. Neither is Tourette's. Neither is anorexia nervosa. Neither is akinetic mutism. Neither is tardive dyskinesia. (Hypomania and ADHD-PI might be adaptive in exceptional environments — there's some fun hypotheses about that. But these are the exception. Most neurological conditions have no such "advantageous situation" where expressing the phenotype in a lifelong way—or even the constant lifelong potential to trigger the response—would be always advantageous to your reproductive success.) Instead, as we now understand, these syndromes happen almost always because of random genetic mutations to genes coding for proteins/enzymes responsible for creating, transporting, receiving, and destroying neurotransmitters. Like, for example, https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs53576 https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs53576. Get an A;A mutation, and your brain's ability to react to oxytocin is toast. (And this is common! And just look at all the reported downstream effects when it happens!) There's no purpose to this mutation. Just like there's no purpose for a gamma ray bit-flipping a DRAM memory cell. Your genes aren't set up carefully so that randomness will intentionally introduce this SNP every so often, to ensure there are some people like this in the population. Rather the opposite: your cellular machinery will, in fact, try as hard as possible to ensure that this mutation doesn't happen (with introns, redundant coding sites, gene silencing, etc.) And, to be even more clear, these are unfit mutations, that lower their subjects' reproductive success. They weed themselves out of the gene pool, rather than being passed on. Non-functioning versions of beneficial genes are always-recessive vs. their working versions, and so will be bred out of the gene pool. These are un-selfish genes. So, that (hopefully) being clear: why should my mind listen to the goals my broken brain is setting for me? I know better than it does. Like the fault-tolerant software running on a Mars rover "knows better" than the rover's individual CPUs do, blasted with radiation as they are. I, as a mind (and even better, I as a cyborg of mind + written storage), can perform the sort of long term comparative analysis of my own emotional states, that my brain on its own simply can't. And therefore, I know things about my brain that my brain doesn't. My brain isn't a wise old wizard with mysterious purposes, who I should trust to tell me what to do. It's an overclocked gaming PC during a brownout, that desperately needs a UPS.

6y ago

kerkeslager 6y ago

> But what are you sacrificing in return for your “perseverance”? Nothing that matters to you. If it mattered to you it would be a life goal. > The reason why modern humanity have increased risk of these symptoms is because they know, given their perhaps wrongly learned models of the world or otherwise, that even when they achieve their so-called life goals, that they wouldn’t achieve philosophical nor psychological satisfaction that they seek. You've added a ton of words which literally don't even mean anything in context. Let me whittle this down: > The reason why modern humans have increased risk of these symptoms is they know that even when they achieve their life goals, that they wouldn't achieve satisfaction. Okay, we found an actual claim. In his essay, Yes, We Have Noticed the Skulls, Scott Alexander notes that any intellectual movement that has been around for a while has made some mistakes, and is probably aware of them, so if there's some obvious failure of a movement, the people who still believe in the movement probably have learned from that failure. Communists are aware of Stalin murdering people and are wary of totalitarianism. Christians are aware of Torquemada torturing people and are wary of religious persecution. There are of course crazy communists and Christians who think Stalin and Torquemada were great, but they're not by any means the majority. If you talk to a communist and your big argument is "but, Stalin!" you're just showing exactly how outdated your knowledge is. This is no exception. If your big criticism of psychology is that achieving your goals can leave you feeling empty, well, let me assure you, psychologists are well aware of this, and have studied it at length. This is not the gotcha you think it is. There are two kinds of goals, process goals and outcome goals. Yes, outcome goals are likely to leave people feeling empty once the desired outcome achieved, which is why some psychologists think it's a good idea to focus on process goals instead. When you talk about "achieving" things and not feeling satisfaction, you're only talking about outcome goals, when there's a whole other type of goal that the article you're criticizing is probably talking about.

avindroth 6y ago
The discussion at hand is about the effects of “Perseverance towards life goals” when somebody has depression, anxiety, or what have you. The article mentions it is useful, and I can no doubt agree with that. It can be meditative, having a mission and all (perhaps one that you do not 100% agree with). It is satisfying, and can keep life afloat. But this “fake mission” trick should be just that — a trick. A placeholder in life for when things get real tough. A patch on your wound that helps the wound heal. The patch isn’t healing the wound, your body is. But people (e.g. self-help aficionados) become thoroughly entranced with this idea (among other bad ideas like growth mindset) that they lose sight of the fact that a patch is a patch, a bandage a bandage. It has outlived its usefulness, but people keep treating it as a real solution. Most often when people observe their mind they can dig up a lot of content. Depression, anxiety, and what have you are real things that you can explore and navigate. How to navigate and what to do with them is extremely difficult because we have never been taught how. We sort of induct what our parents and teachers do without explicitly categorizing/identifying what is going on in out minds. Most times we are running the same damn loop for the, what, millionth time in a row. The same situation, the same psychological response, the same result. Without even going into replication crisis, there are a lot of psychological theories and therapies that are sold, to others and even to the theorizer him/herself. The mind is a value-seeking machine that will not deter itself from using fiction to understand the world and get what it wants. Interestingly, the fiction of the mind acts as a patch itself, but it is never recognized by the self because the mind (most of the time) does it under the rug. So the patch sticks around and causes problems. The solution is to recognize that the mind can employ fiction and slowly but surely the mind will start doing these things overtly visibly to you (simply because it doesn’t have to hide it anymore). Stay on track with what the mind provides to you and be free about it (sometimes ignore it, hate it, listen to it, coddle it, be depressed, be anxious — to the mind emotions are generated and should be accepted without scores attached to them). Then the implicit goals will become explicit. But this hijacking of explicit goals without respecting implicit goals is pure whack.

lvturner 6y ago

I've spent a great deal of time and energy trying to set meaningful goals and progress towards things, then worry that I was progressing to the wrong thing and adjust goals etc. My current goal is simply to learn to be happy with what I have and who I am. As an indirect result of pursuing this I've found that loads of other goals and things that I've wanted to accomplish have become massively easier to progress on.

disqard 6y ago
I wish you continuous, steady progress in this endeavor! Like you, I try every day to view what I have through the lens of gratitude, and it helps me a lot.
aspaviento 6y ago
Could you elaborate on how those goals have become massively easier to progress on? is it because your mood and energy are better/greater?
- lvturner 6y ago
  Yes, and I apologise if I veer off topic a bit, but I find all of these things below inter-related. I've found that creating more space in my brain (I am prone to suffering anxiety) removes the friction I have in starting tasks and increases the enjoyment I get out of them. Not only have goals become easier to progress on, but I've found that I can take on more. All of this is a work in progress though, some days/weeks/months are easier than others - but equally the more I learn the more tools I have to deal with setbacks. For me the things that have had a huge positive impact besides just changing my mind set are: Wim Hof Method - I felt this would be worth trying to improve my asthma, but I've found it taught me how to meditate too - using this as a spring board I'm exploring other and further meditation techniques. CBD Oil - this absolutely slayed my baseline anxiety, even if it turns out just to be a placebo, I place high weight on this simple act changing a lot for me. Exercise (also a goal) - towards the end of last year I was around ~90kg @ 182cm, I'm now around ~75kg with some decent muscle definition - I've focused mostly on bodybuilding, watching the change in the mirror and taking a few minutes to appreciate the changes and my own hard work have been hugely rewarding for me. Also the enordphine rush from some of the workouts is great too. Closely related to exercise is diet - this is something I am constantly paying attention to now (before I just didn't have the capacity and would happily chow down on McD's multiple times a week despite knowing how bad it was) changes in this impact not just my waist line but also my mood. Jewelry - I discovered that while it's unusual for most men to do so that wearing jewelery makes me happy, so I disregard what anyone else may think and now wear quite a bit on a daily basis. Might seem a bit off-beat, but it's been a recent personal discovery and I think borne out of focusing just a bit more on being "me" not some ideal projection of myself. Music (also a goal!), I've started to play the guitar again, I've had abortive attempts at this in the past but simply being able to say to myself "hey, I suck at this and it's OK because I enjoy it" has made it so much easier! Now, of course there are goals that I am still failing at - learning Mandarin for instance - but seeing the progress on the others and by applying strategies I've learned from one goal or area of self improvement I am hopeful that I will eventually crack it. Sorry if this diverted and went off topic, but I hope my experiences and rambling helps some people!

deerpig 6y ago

I disagree, perseverance is not the same as goal-seeking for goal seeking's sake, or at least, it doesn't have to be. Twenty years ago I set a thirty year goal, literally bet my life on it. It wasn't until two years ago that I was reasonably sure it had a chance of success. I had to, and continue to basically give up everything, no one funds very long term research, so I had to learn to live on less than $200 a month. No healthcare, not being able to buy a new pair of glasses, only being able to buy clothes once a year or so. But I found a university who believed in my work, gave me an office and a flat on campus outside of Phnom Penh and the freedom to follow the project wherever it went. No salary, but it's been enough. Perseverance is what keeps you sane, gets you up in the morning. It gets you through whatever is thrown at you. I have not had a happy or easy life, but it has been a life full of purpose. I have seen and done things that most people couldn't imagine, that has been, many times, too weird to be believable even as fiction. Perseverance is a skill you practice every day for the rest of your life. But there are many small compensations. You find kindness and beauty and from time to time pleasure in unexpected places along the way. With the university's help we will go to press with the first volume later this year, with a volume every year or so until it's finished on or about 2030. No one would willingly choose such a life, you fall into such things, and I was one of the stupid one's who took on such a ridiculously ambitious challenge. With a little luck I will live to see it through to the end. So for some, purpose and perseverance, trump happiness and comfort and security. Though I admit I am likely and edge case. I must say though, my wife and I sure as shit would like to live on a little more than $200 a month. :)

avindroth 6y ago
I think this is a definitional disagreement. If what you mean by perseverance is the skill you practice to keep yourself going (while overall aligned in the general direction), then yes, I am all for it. But often goal-seeking for goal-seeking’s sake is somewhat coerced on others in the name of virtue, perseverance, etc. The old advice of “do something, don’t just stand there” is the example I am talking about. But if you have found what you want to do and have set a reasonably long goal (30 years is dedication), then yes humans are imperfect and there will be bits and pieces of motivation still missing. But not many are fortunate to have this goal arising from within. I like the “shower thoughts” test. Are your goals what you think about in the shower? If yes, then that is probably what you want. Other story in the same line is “if you are trying to start a startup and you get discouraged by someone and consider not, you probably weren’t meant to do it in the first place.” (Peter Graham I think) You really can’t not have desires. You can have desires that you don’t want or invisible/preconscious desires, but strictly speaking a person can’t be more desirous (or, loosely, more passionate) than another. It’s like saying a piece of AI is half-invested into its utility function, it just doesn’t work like that.

whatnidnogg 6y ago

sacriciing nothing. perseverance is hard work. it's all it is. also i'm on twitter as nidnogg if you wanna know what hard work is yo i'll tweet you back if you like.

whatnidnogg 6y ago

cheers!

wiz21c 6y ago

I totally agree. I'd add this : of course it helps to have life goals because it helps to structure, to not get lost. But I'm confident that the vast majority of us doesn't have a life goal. Most of use figure out a new small goal from time to time. And we'd be so much better if we'd recognize that a non-heroic life is just as good as any other.

indigochill 6y ago
>And we'd be so much better if we'd recognize that a non-heroic life is just as good as any other. This is something I've struggled to come to terms with. But looking at my grandpa as an example, he had some plaques and things commemorating him in his local community after he died. He wasn't a hero and he didn't change the world (outside of, by all accounts, being a decent dad and husband), but he was an invested and involved member of his local community. I'm not the local community type (like being nomadic too much) but my parallel is contributing work to open source projects I use. It's not heroic or a big life goal, but it'll leave the open source community very slightly better than it would have been without me, and that's something.

carti 6y ago

> Most types of meditative studies also force this notion of blindness. In my experience, many seem to encourage the opposite (a higher awareness of one's emotional state). Perhaps certain techniques could be considered similar to horse blinders, but I definitely don't think "blindness" is the goal.

smattiso 6y ago

I mostly agree with what you have to you say. Clearly you have been through this and have gained a lot of wisdom along the way. We are all products of our environments and our goals arise from this. People who grow up in the Bay Area, or who read Hacker News, or who excel at STEM have "life goals" of running a startup. Some actually want that internally and others are just going through the motions. The latter will be miserable. It's also not something you can tough out and force on yourself. Either you want it or you don't, and that's a good thing! We are individuals after all. Where I disagree is that depression is caused by us being misaligned internally. Anybody who has been there knows that the brain can hijack your perception of the world. When you are depressed everything sucks. We live in an unexplainable universe with billions of assholes and we are all going to die so what's the point of anything? Nihilism takes over. You get more depressed. But once the fog lifts you can find the joy in life and appreciate all the stuff your "rational" depressed self thought was pointless. From my experience I think its best to not make these grand sweeping life goals in the first place. Take it day by and keep moving forward. What excites you today? What do you daydream about when you are in the shower? People who achieve these "great goals" do so via naturally gained momentum and almost nobody has a life goal that lasts for decades. You start with something, see if you like it, if you do keep that momentum rolling. It should be more natural, feel good, and not be contrived. Be easy on yourself and enjoy the ride. You don't have to be Steve Jobs and even he wasn't trying to be Steve Jobs. He just got the momentum going and kept with it. If it happens so be it but if you are miserable you are doing it wrong.