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I am more that willing to take on those costs to work from home forever because I get the freedom of no commute which not only incurs an obvious cost but puts m

I am more that willing to take on those costs to work from home forever because I get the freedom of no commute which not only incurs an obvious cost but puts me at risk each day. I also find my costs reduced because now I am no longer eating out for lunch, let alone because I felt pressure to do so daily. However there are companies that are overly proud of their head quarters and other real estate and are going to be loathe to give it up; this includes elite addresses and locations

bradlys 6y ago
Many people in big tech hubs don't pay for lunch. Work provides it. Now, they all have to pay for lunch that they weren't paying for before because the office is closed. Sometimes this isn't just lunch - but up to 3 meals a day. Same is true with transit. They took a company bus or work paid for public transit. Now, people who were living in spaces where they didn't have a dedicated office space are dying for one. (like myself) And, unfortunately, the competition for homes with more bedrooms has skyrocketed. I'm looking at paying $2000 more a month just so I can get a couple more bedrooms for office work! Moving away for a year or more isn't a real option either.
- godzillabrennus 6y ago
  If tech companies don’t adjust for cost of living and you move you can save money on housing and get more space.
  - take_a_breath 6y ago
    Isn’t that the point though? If the worker has to move in order to get more space, the worker is bearing the costs (literal and opportunity).
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Fringe benefits should always be expected to be transient (meals, commute transportation), and it isn’t wise to include them in total comp calculations (as they’re easier to do away with than your comp).
  - bradlys 6y ago
    >Fringe benefits should always be expected to be transient (meals, commute transportation), and it isn’t wise to include them in total comp calculations (as they’re easier to do away with than your comp). Yet places like Google would argue for them as part of their TC. The companies that tend to offer these benefits don't usually get rid of them until they're going out of business...
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      It’s your job as an employee to not drink the kool aid and to properly value benefits provided, regardless of how they’re marketed. Cash is king, everything else is window dressing.
      - rightbyte 6y ago
        Sure but it is not just the $ sum but also $/h and $/sweat and tear. Having eg. parking lots even if you arrive at 10 aclock is also a big deal.
      - kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
        No one is drinking any KoolAid. I care about the fact that I don't have to go through the cognitive load of figuring out every meal. This is a benefit I personally experience and so I factor it in my analysis. I don't care how my employer reports it in their taxes or balance sheet. Also, cash is king but companies can offer benefits at scale that will be much harder to access for me as an individual.
        ghaff 6y ago
        Mostly healthcare in the US. And a few other things that are tax-advantaged by being benefits from an employer (like 401(k) matching). I'm not sure that I can think of much else, other than negotiated travel and other discounts--which I don't really consider "benefits"--that are harder for me to access as an individual.
    - 6y ago
- michaelt 6y ago
  If my time's worth $50 an hour, it'd have to be a damn good free lunch or a damn short commute for the free-lunch-for-unpaid-commute trade to be a good deal.
  - OJFord 6y ago
    But unless you're actually paid per hour...
  - bradlys 6y ago
    I mean - I'm not really arguing that you should commute just for a free lunch. If anything - I was making a bigger argument in regards to the office space part. I'm fine with the lunches at home right now. (I can only blame myself for the poor lunch options on any given day) The $2,000/month that I'm looking at spending just to have office space is a bit of a bigger deal, imo...
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
    Don't forget the huge benefit of lunch just being there. I spend a lot more time dealing with food now (cooking, cleanup, groceries) than I spent on my commute. I could go to a restaurant, but if I don't want to eat the same thing every day, getting there and back and waiting for the food is going to take more time than my commute, especially if I do it for more than lunch. Even purely from a time perspective, free-lunch-for-unpaid-commute is an EXCELLENT deal in my case. I can totally see that being different if your commute is longer than 30 minutes.
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      I kinda agree, except that I actually like cooking. Even still, I've been working later (7pm approx) as I've started with a company based out of California (I'm in Ireland), which sucks for eating food. Slow cookers/crockpots are kinda ace, you can dump all the ingredients into it in the morning, and have a meal when you finish work. As a bonus, the smell of the food is nice in the afternoons.
- skwb 6y ago
  There has long been a debate if these free means actually count as a form of reimbursement (and are therefore taxable). https://www.wsj.com/articles/silicon-valley-cafeterias-whet-appetite-of-irs-1409612488 https://www.wsj.com/articles/silicon-valley-cafeterias-whet-... https://www.businessinsider.com/irs-and-free-food-at-tech-companies-2014-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/irs-and-free-food-at-tech-co...
- spo81rty 6y ago
  Or you can move somewhere where the cost of living is 80% lower...and still work remote.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    Until you have to go back to the office whenever that is... And say goodbye to all of your friends/family.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      How many people who work for BigTech have family there and didn’t relocate?
      - bradlys 6y ago
        Of the Americans I know - quite a few. Of the foreigners - obviously quite a bit less. Beyond that - friends can also be more important than family. I know plenty of people who won't move because all their friends are where they currently live - and they're fine with not being close to their family.
- ckdarby 6y ago
  I have a hard time relating to your comment. Why do you need a couple more bedrooms? Can split a bedroom as an office with the other person in your house. If you have kids you can pair them up in the same bedroom with bunk beds. You could spend the money on a Murphy bed that folds up and turns into a desk. I have co-workers who even work from their dining room table for the time being. Moving is always an option every excuse you have just follow up with, "and...?".
  - ghaff 6y ago
    A dedicated personal office is very nice if you full-time work from home. It's much nicer than working out of a bedroom, especially if the bedroom isn't that big.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- scarface74 6y ago
  I pay $2150 a month for a 5 bedroom 3100 square foot 4 year old house in the burbs of a major metropolitan area and work for $BigTech remotely. I wouldn’t trade the arbitrage opportunity for anything.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    > I pay $2150 a month for a 5 bedroom 3100 square foot 4 year old house in the burbs of a major metropolitan area and work for $BigTech remotely. I wouldn’t trade the arbitrage opportunity for anything. Congrats, you don't live in silicon valley. Woohoo. Your life is not everyone's nor is it representative of what everyone can get. My employer will only keep people who will show up at the office. If I found employers regularly paying $400k+ for remote - I'd consider it... But I don't see them often.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      Well, most people aren’t making $400K at $BigTech either according to levels.fyi I had two choices when I could see myself topping out locally as a bog standard enterprise dev - either I could go the r/cscareerquestions route and “grind leetCode” so I could reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard, and move to high cost of living area or I could focus on gaining experience so I could be an overpriced “digital transformation consultant” somewhere where most of the jobs are remote with travel. Right when I was about to pull the trigger and start applying for local companies, Covid hit, the local market dried up and I got an email from an Amazon recruiter. I thought I might as well try. I can answer the “tell me about a time when...” questions with the best of them and I had the relevant experience.
  - dbancajas 6y ago
    and do you also get the $BigTech 400K/year salary? that would be sweet.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      Do I get the $400K salary? I’m not at the $400K salary level but neither are most people who work for $BigTech. The salary bands for the AWS consultants/solution architects/engagement managers are the same as the equivalent SDE roles. I would think the same holds true for GCP and Azure. I can tell you according to levels.fyi that my salary is the same for my level as someone living in Seattle. I also know an SA living in MiddleOfNowhere Nebraska who is making the same for his level as someone in Seattle.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I doubt if I spend $5/day eating lunch at home. And it's really not the norm for companies to pay for meals or commuting. But, yes, if you want to continue living in an expensive urban area, the cost of an extra room is significant. I do consider myself fortunate that I live in a semi-rural area and have a dedicated office. I know a number of people who are fleeing city apartments to more rural areas.
- nextlevelwizard 6y ago
  This is a very localized issue. Most people (I included) do not get even free lunch at work and there is no free transit to office either. Both are cheaper than average (I think the buss is 1/2 the normal ticket price and the lunch is 2/3 of normal "take out" price) but certainly not free. Everyone is also thinking this the wrong way around. People are thinking "how would this fit my current lifestyle" instead of "if this is the new normal, how would I change my lifestyle and would it be better over all". I don't live in a big city even now, my commute is about 20minutes each way with a car. As it currently stands if I can stay working completely remotely I probably will and I will be selling my apartment and looking for a house in a more rural area. Something larger than my current apartment so I could have an actual office (in an ideal world there would be a separate building that would act as office / workshop). Currently I'm struggling with no dedicated office space, but that is because being 100% remote wasn't an option. I get that many people have grown to expect free lunches and whatever from their work, but in over all work force thous people are in tiny margin group and while it sure would be sad if they lose the privilege, but needs of the many and so on.
- michannne 6y ago
  I am shocked there are people who get 3 square meals a day all paid for by their job I'm apalled that there are adults getting 3 free meals and are upset that they now have to get those meals themselves And why would you pay $2000 for a "couple more" bedrooms? You're telling me you can't put an L-desk in your living room? This thread just has ridiculous scenarios upon ridiculous scenarios, like the guy who would need to take a "40k pay cut" to get a home gym and a 3D printer.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    I live in a small (400-sqft) 1-bedroom that has no internal doors. It was never rented as a WFH space. If you and your partner are both on calls a lot of the day - it's kinda hard to do them if you have to talk over one another. It used to be you had 8-hours of separation a day. Now, you don't have any. More bedrooms would provide some of that. Some people like having living rooms without office furniture jammed into them - go figure. Most people I know would have to get rid of some furniture in order to fit a desk nicely into their living room. > I'm apalled that there are adults getting 3 free meals and are upset that they now have to get those meals themselves The 3 meals a day thing just sounds like gatekeeping. "You must not be a real adult because you want food that's included in your benefits instead of having to labor over it like the rest of us who don't have such benefits!" (Or you have to pay for those meals to be delivered - which is very costly on an individual scale) What if you can't go get your oil changed now? Should I say, "I'm appalled that there are adults getting oil changes at service centers and are upset that they now have to get those oil changes done themselves"
    - michannne 6y ago
      You work from home, there is no one forcing you to live in a 400 sq ft apartment, and there is no one forcing you to share it with someone else. The fact that you relinquish that responsibility to your job is what is ridiculous - you choose where to live, and now that you WFH you can work from wherever you want, the fact your home is only 400 sq ft, and that you want to actually stay in an area where you have to pay upwards of $2k just for adequate space is not your workplace's responsibility to fix. And the argument is not that these people getting 3 free meals arent adults, it's that they are actually unprepared for a world in which they themselves have to pay for their own breakfast, lunch and dinner.

bradlys 6y ago

Many people in big tech hubs don't pay for lunch. Work provides it. Now, they all have to pay for lunch that they weren't paying for before because the office is closed. Sometimes this isn't just lunch - but up to 3 meals a day. Same is true with transit. They took a company bus or work paid for public transit. Now, people who were living in spaces where they didn't have a dedicated office space are dying for one. (like myself) And, unfortunately, the competition for homes with more bedrooms has skyrocketed. I'm looking at paying $2000 more a month just so I can get a couple more bedrooms for office work! Moving away for a year or more isn't a real option either.

godzillabrennus 6y ago
If tech companies don’t adjust for cost of living and you move you can save money on housing and get more space.
- take_a_breath 6y ago
  Isn’t that the point though? If the worker has to move in order to get more space, the worker is bearing the costs (literal and opportunity).
toomuchtodo 6y ago
Fringe benefits should always be expected to be transient (meals, commute transportation), and it isn’t wise to include them in total comp calculations (as they’re easier to do away with than your comp).
- bradlys 6y ago
  >Fringe benefits should always be expected to be transient (meals, commute transportation), and it isn’t wise to include them in total comp calculations (as they’re easier to do away with than your comp). Yet places like Google would argue for them as part of their TC. The companies that tend to offer these benefits don't usually get rid of them until they're going out of business...
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    It’s your job as an employee to not drink the kool aid and to properly value benefits provided, regardless of how they’re marketed. Cash is king, everything else is window dressing.
    - rightbyte 6y ago
      Sure but it is not just the $ sum but also $/h and $/sweat and tear. Having eg. parking lots even if you arrive at 10 aclock is also a big deal.
    - kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
      No one is drinking any KoolAid. I care about the fact that I don't have to go through the cognitive load of figuring out every meal. This is a benefit I personally experience and so I factor it in my analysis. I don't care how my employer reports it in their taxes or balance sheet. Also, cash is king but companies can offer benefits at scale that will be much harder to access for me as an individual.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        Mostly healthcare in the US. And a few other things that are tax-advantaged by being benefits from an employer (like 401(k) matching). I'm not sure that I can think of much else, other than negotiated travel and other discounts--which I don't really consider "benefits"--that are harder for me to access as an individual.
  - 6y ago
michaelt 6y ago
If my time's worth $50 an hour, it'd have to be a damn good free lunch or a damn short commute for the free-lunch-for-unpaid-commute trade to be a good deal.
- OJFord 6y ago
  But unless you're actually paid per hour...
- bradlys 6y ago
  I mean - I'm not really arguing that you should commute just for a free lunch. If anything - I was making a bigger argument in regards to the office space part. I'm fine with the lunches at home right now. (I can only blame myself for the poor lunch options on any given day) The $2,000/month that I'm looking at spending just to have office space is a bit of a bigger deal, imo...
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  Don't forget the huge benefit of lunch just being there. I spend a lot more time dealing with food now (cooking, cleanup, groceries) than I spent on my commute. I could go to a restaurant, but if I don't want to eat the same thing every day, getting there and back and waiting for the food is going to take more time than my commute, especially if I do it for more than lunch. Even purely from a time perspective, free-lunch-for-unpaid-commute is an EXCELLENT deal in my case. I can totally see that being different if your commute is longer than 30 minutes.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    I kinda agree, except that I actually like cooking. Even still, I've been working later (7pm approx) as I've started with a company based out of California (I'm in Ireland), which sucks for eating food. Slow cookers/crockpots are kinda ace, you can dump all the ingredients into it in the morning, and have a meal when you finish work. As a bonus, the smell of the food is nice in the afternoons.
skwb 6y ago
There has long been a debate if these free means actually count as a form of reimbursement (and are therefore taxable). https://www.wsj.com/articles/silicon-valley-cafeterias-whet-appetite-of-irs-1409612488 https://www.wsj.com/articles/silicon-valley-cafeterias-whet-... https://www.businessinsider.com/irs-and-free-food-at-tech-companies-2014-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/irs-and-free-food-at-tech-co...
spo81rty 6y ago
Or you can move somewhere where the cost of living is 80% lower...and still work remote.
- bradlys 6y ago
  Until you have to go back to the office whenever that is... And say goodbye to all of your friends/family.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    How many people who work for BigTech have family there and didn’t relocate?
    - bradlys 6y ago
      Of the Americans I know - quite a few. Of the foreigners - obviously quite a bit less. Beyond that - friends can also be more important than family. I know plenty of people who won't move because all their friends are where they currently live - and they're fine with not being close to their family.
ckdarby 6y ago
I have a hard time relating to your comment. Why do you need a couple more bedrooms? Can split a bedroom as an office with the other person in your house. If you have kids you can pair them up in the same bedroom with bunk beds. You could spend the money on a Murphy bed that folds up and turns into a desk. I have co-workers who even work from their dining room table for the time being. Moving is always an option every excuse you have just follow up with, "and...?".
- ghaff 6y ago
  A dedicated personal office is very nice if you full-time work from home. It's much nicer than working out of a bedroom, especially if the bedroom isn't that big.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
scarface74 6y ago
I pay $2150 a month for a 5 bedroom 3100 square foot 4 year old house in the burbs of a major metropolitan area and work for $BigTech remotely. I wouldn’t trade the arbitrage opportunity for anything.
- bradlys 6y ago
  > I pay $2150 a month for a 5 bedroom 3100 square foot 4 year old house in the burbs of a major metropolitan area and work for $BigTech remotely. I wouldn’t trade the arbitrage opportunity for anything. Congrats, you don't live in silicon valley. Woohoo. Your life is not everyone's nor is it representative of what everyone can get. My employer will only keep people who will show up at the office. If I found employers regularly paying $400k+ for remote - I'd consider it... But I don't see them often.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Well, most people aren’t making $400K at $BigTech either according to levels.fyi I had two choices when I could see myself topping out locally as a bog standard enterprise dev - either I could go the r/cscareerquestions route and “grind leetCode” so I could reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard, and move to high cost of living area or I could focus on gaining experience so I could be an overpriced “digital transformation consultant” somewhere where most of the jobs are remote with travel. Right when I was about to pull the trigger and start applying for local companies, Covid hit, the local market dried up and I got an email from an Amazon recruiter. I thought I might as well try. I can answer the “tell me about a time when...” questions with the best of them and I had the relevant experience.
- dbancajas 6y ago
  and do you also get the $BigTech 400K/year salary? that would be sweet.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Do I get the $400K salary? I’m not at the $400K salary level but neither are most people who work for $BigTech. The salary bands for the AWS consultants/solution architects/engagement managers are the same as the equivalent SDE roles. I would think the same holds true for GCP and Azure. I can tell you according to levels.fyi that my salary is the same for my level as someone living in Seattle. I also know an SA living in MiddleOfNowhere Nebraska who is making the same for his level as someone in Seattle.
ghaff 6y ago
I doubt if I spend $5/day eating lunch at home. And it's really not the norm for companies to pay for meals or commuting. But, yes, if you want to continue living in an expensive urban area, the cost of an extra room is significant. I do consider myself fortunate that I live in a semi-rural area and have a dedicated office. I know a number of people who are fleeing city apartments to more rural areas.
nextlevelwizard 6y ago
This is a very localized issue. Most people (I included) do not get even free lunch at work and there is no free transit to office either. Both are cheaper than average (I think the buss is 1/2 the normal ticket price and the lunch is 2/3 of normal "take out" price) but certainly not free. Everyone is also thinking this the wrong way around. People are thinking "how would this fit my current lifestyle" instead of "if this is the new normal, how would I change my lifestyle and would it be better over all". I don't live in a big city even now, my commute is about 20minutes each way with a car. As it currently stands if I can stay working completely remotely I probably will and I will be selling my apartment and looking for a house in a more rural area. Something larger than my current apartment so I could have an actual office (in an ideal world there would be a separate building that would act as office / workshop). Currently I'm struggling with no dedicated office space, but that is because being 100% remote wasn't an option. I get that many people have grown to expect free lunches and whatever from their work, but in over all work force thous people are in tiny margin group and while it sure would be sad if they lose the privilege, but needs of the many and so on.
michannne 6y ago
I am shocked there are people who get 3 square meals a day all paid for by their job I'm apalled that there are adults getting 3 free meals and are upset that they now have to get those meals themselves And why would you pay $2000 for a "couple more" bedrooms? You're telling me you can't put an L-desk in your living room? This thread just has ridiculous scenarios upon ridiculous scenarios, like the guy who would need to take a "40k pay cut" to get a home gym and a 3D printer.
- bradlys 6y ago
  I live in a small (400-sqft) 1-bedroom that has no internal doors. It was never rented as a WFH space. If you and your partner are both on calls a lot of the day - it's kinda hard to do them if you have to talk over one another. It used to be you had 8-hours of separation a day. Now, you don't have any. More bedrooms would provide some of that. Some people like having living rooms without office furniture jammed into them - go figure. Most people I know would have to get rid of some furniture in order to fit a desk nicely into their living room. > I'm apalled that there are adults getting 3 free meals and are upset that they now have to get those meals themselves The 3 meals a day thing just sounds like gatekeeping. "You must not be a real adult because you want food that's included in your benefits instead of having to labor over it like the rest of us who don't have such benefits!" (Or you have to pay for those meals to be delivered - which is very costly on an individual scale) What if you can't go get your oil changed now? Should I say, "I'm appalled that there are adults getting oil changes at service centers and are upset that they now have to get those oil changes done themselves"
  - michannne 6y ago
    You work from home, there is no one forcing you to live in a 400 sq ft apartment, and there is no one forcing you to share it with someone else. The fact that you relinquish that responsibility to your job is what is ridiculous - you choose where to live, and now that you WFH you can work from wherever you want, the fact your home is only 400 sq ft, and that you want to actually stay in an area where you have to pay upwards of $2k just for adequate space is not your workplace's responsibility to fix. And the argument is not that these people getting 3 free meals arent adults, it's that they are actually unprepared for a world in which they themselves have to pay for their own breakfast, lunch and dinner.