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A coworker of mine recently pointed out that not only are businesses saving money by closing offices, they're also offloading other costs to the employees. Thin

A coworker of mine recently pointed out that not only are businesses saving money by closing offices, they're also offloading other costs to the employees. Things like: - Water, electricity, HVAC, sanitation - Desks, chairs, ergonomic equipment, safety equipment - Telecom, networking support - Physical security - Office supplies - Misc. amenities like coffee and snacks Some companies are taking this into account, but not all. A personal anecdote: we had an all-hands meeting today and the amount of emotion on display when the topic turned to returning to the office strongly suggests people want to go back. Whether or not that's temporary nostalgia for a previous life or an enduring need is an interesting discussion, but there are definitely people wanting to go back. I for one am even more in the no-remote-only-gigs camp given recent events. edit: formatting, I'll learn eventually

taurath 6y ago
I think it depends where you live and your situation. I have coworkers in small NYC studios who just want to get outside. I have others who don't mind not taking the train for an hour a day. Many coworkers have a nice big house to work from. The ones with kids most want to come back, because they appreciate the mental separation they get. Remember, Quarentine Work Is Not Remote Work - https://www.hanselman.com/blog/QuarantineWorkIsNotRemoteWork.aspx https://www.hanselman.com/blog/QuarantineWorkIsNotRemoteWork...
- setpatchaddress 6y ago
  This. People with many young kids, especially, seem to be absolutely miserable. More interesting than remote/in-office is that we don't seem to be acknowledging the inevitable permanence of social distancing measures. No more four-dudes-in-an-office. No more coming to work with mild cold symptoms.
  - taurath 6y ago
    Maybe, oh goodness please, the return of actual OFFICES. With DOORS. Thats the only way you're getting me to come back into a work office, barring a rediculous raise.
    - iso947 6y ago
      I went into the office this week as I had physical work to do in the equipment rooms. Very few people are there (normally 7k, now it’s more like 700 across 10 floors) It’s been so long since I wore headphones I forgot how bad it was. Zooms were difficult as other people in earshot (only 4 people, all about 4m away) were talking at the same time. But if I had an office with a door (like I have at home) and a fixed deal with monitors rather than hunching over a laptop (as I do at home) maybe things would be different.
- avremel 6y ago
  I'm in a one bedroom Brooklyn apt. Any time I open up my laptop, my 2yr old daughter climbs onto my lap and repetitively hits the caps lock key (it lights up on my laptop). Luckily, I've found alternative places to work from, albeit with less than ideal setups.
chosenbreed37 6y ago
> A coworker of mine recently pointed out that not only are businesses saving money by closing offices, they're I hadn't considered this. I've always thought that many companies are tied to long leases they wouldn't be able to get out of that quickly. I can imagine some savings on the other associated office costs. > I for one am even more in the no-remote-only-gigs camp given recent events. Interesting...could you please elaborate on this?
- kayodelycaon 6y ago
  My company was at the end of their lease for several office buildings. They’ve since closed all but our largest offices. We have some jobs that can’t be done remotely (security and certification requirements precludes outsourcing.) The remaining offices are running skeleton crews with the heaviest precautions we can do while remaining operational.
danny_sf45 6y ago
Another personal anecdote: in my company nobody wants to go back to the office.
- Guest42 6y ago
  In my office the parents and people that have their own offices as opposed to cubicles are the only ones looking to return.
  - btgeekboy 6y ago
    Sure says a lot about open workspaces.
    - gsk22 6y ago
      No it doesn't, it's just one anecdote. Anecdotally, most people in my office are excited to return, including those who work in an open workspace.
      - therealdrag0 6y ago
        My open office already has a voluntary return; but you gotta wear a mask and get temperature checked. I’ve already been on multiple calls with people in the office.
notJim 6y ago
> I for one am even more in the no-remote-only-gigs camp given recent events. I don't understand this, why? Regarding the rest of your comment, I totally agree. My mom and sister both work for a large, old-fashioned company, and the company didn't even let them take their dual monitors home with them when WFH started. They both had to buy setups out of their own pocket, and these are not people making tech salaries. Really the biggest cost you're leaving off is space though. It's really preferable to have a dedicated space for an office, and this is not free. It's one thing for someone who made a choice to go remote, but for people forced into it, it feels unfair to me. It wouldn't surprise me if in the new world, offices are viewed as a perk rather than a requirement due to all this. I personally work remotely for the record, but talking to many people in my life, it's clear this is not for everyone.
- cosmodisk 6y ago
  >and the company didn't even let them take their dual monitors home with them when WFH started That is such a low life mentality. Not to give two screens worth $200 to someone who's probably making 10-20 times that a month. What I envisage is super localised hubs,or small office spaces in residential areas. Small building nicely fitting into the area and offering local people some level of office like environment
  - iso947 6y ago
    My company wants us to go through 20 years of back emails Because it will save money when they love them to “the cloud” Penny wise pound foolish
- philjohn 6y ago
  Exactly - I'm lucky in that I made a deliberate decision to have a slightly longer commute because it meant a bigger house and closer to an amazing school my children attend. I'm fortunate to have a proper office that I can enter at the start of the work day, and leave at the end - separating my work and home life. Having to work from your lounge, or kitchen, or worse bedroom makes it much harder to switch off.
draw_down 6y ago
Yes, this downside of remote work almost never gets brought up. I've worked remotely for about 10 years now and have no interest in going back, but I think people should be clear-eyed about what's in it for employers. Not so much coffee and snacks, but office space, desks/monitor/chair, etc. Ethical employers should be offering stipends for these.
randycupertino 6y ago
> the amount of emotion on display when the topic turned to returning to the office strongly suggests people want to go back. Could also be the most vociferous or those worried about losing jobs to outsourcing? Also there's morale at play which could be people wanting to showcase they're all-in for facetime and not wanting to be the only ones without team spirit. imo people will vote with their feet re: remote work by not interviewing or accepting offers at companies that force back to the office. Agree there's a nostalgia factor at play and need for ongoing discussions, I think overall things are going to move towards greater flexibility and maybe flex days/time etc.
egypturnash 6y ago
I just wanna add one thing to this list: - Physical space. If you've got a small home without a spare room to turn into an office, have fun working on the kitchen table!
- briandear 6y ago
  True, but if you were remote only, you could live in a low cost place and afford a bigger space.
  - mynegation 6y ago
    I could but I just do not want to. This pandemic definitely stacked the cards against my living preferences
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    The place is chosen not only for the cost. Some people like to live near the park, or downtown, because theaters museums movies bars dancehalls are all there.
    - sethhochberg 6y ago
      Those of us who genuinely prefer city living and amenities seem to be relatively few among the crowd on HN. I used to work full-time remote, and had the choice to go anywhere I wanted in the world. I still landed in NYC, and stayed because I loved a diverse, walkable community with amazing nightlife, culture, and parks all around. I eventually took a job in an office in the city because I liked having an occasional social environment with coworkers, both in the office and outside of it. Working at home full-time as a person without a family and more social needs than I was willing to admit for a long time was extremely isolating, but I don't want a family yet. I'm eager to go back to the office as soon as it is safe at scale for all the same reasons I was eager to leave my remote job and go into an office again most days originally. Moving somewhere cheap and more isolated to have more space to work at home is about the lowest thing on my priority list. (But I recognize that I'm fortunate to work at a place which always had pretty good tolerance for remote work, even pre-pandemic, even if I didn't take advantage of it... and also lucky to have coworkers who I generally enjoy being around and working with.)
Shivetya 6y ago
I am more that willing to take on those costs to work from home forever because I get the freedom of no commute which not only incurs an obvious cost but puts me at risk each day. I also find my costs reduced because now I am no longer eating out for lunch, let alone because I felt pressure to do so daily. However there are companies that are overly proud of their head quarters and other real estate and are going to be loathe to give it up; this includes elite addresses and locations
- bradlys 6y ago
  Many people in big tech hubs don't pay for lunch. Work provides it. Now, they all have to pay for lunch that they weren't paying for before because the office is closed. Sometimes this isn't just lunch - but up to 3 meals a day. Same is true with transit. They took a company bus or work paid for public transit. Now, people who were living in spaces where they didn't have a dedicated office space are dying for one. (like myself) And, unfortunately, the competition for homes with more bedrooms has skyrocketed. I'm looking at paying $2000 more a month just so I can get a couple more bedrooms for office work! Moving away for a year or more isn't a real option either.
  - godzillabrennus 6y ago
    If tech companies don’t adjust for cost of living and you move you can save money on housing and get more space.
    - take_a_breath 6y ago
      Isn’t that the point though? If the worker has to move in order to get more space, the worker is bearing the costs (literal and opportunity).
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Fringe benefits should always be expected to be transient (meals, commute transportation), and it isn’t wise to include them in total comp calculations (as they’re easier to do away with than your comp).
toss1 6y ago
Definitely a trade-off, as the costs previously mostly foisted off on employees were related to commuting to the office (time, car, parking, public transport, etc.) The leading companies would take account of those costs. One would hope they would also adapt to take acct of home office costs I'm seeing/expecting people will want to go in some, but not back to 5-days in the office. 2-3 days, when necessary to really do things together. If this reduced office loading prevails, it'll also help everyone from workers to cities with the misery & costs of commuting (tho I did read that NPR has lost huge audience due to loss of commute-time listeners).
schwinn140 6y ago
I'm not experiencing this and I would assume anyone employed at a larger or established company would mirror this. I've seen our company quickly react to the reduced office related costs and have reallocated that to cover employee's home office needs: internet service, phone, supplies. If you needed a desk at home, that also was accommodated. Being able to take our work computer(s), including dual monitors, was also immediately available to everyone.
cosmodisk 6y ago
We run two office buildings on the same road: we went to the main one to collect all the IT equipment,pack it up and put it in the other,smaller office. We used to run fully in house. Yes,some people do want to go back to the office but the main reasons are: we were all stuck at home for months,so people do want to regain some sort of normality. Some have difficulties at home,so going to the office is better. Me personally? I run a 10 people team that will be half that size in a few days. I live in a 1 bed flat,so writing unit tests and dealing with dodgy suppliers,while Peppa Pig is blasting in the background can be challenging. However,I don't want to spend 3h on commuting daily.Screw that. The desk cost was about £3K a year,so I'm sure there will be some negotiation space to get something arranged for WFH.
- chosenbreed37 6y ago
  > I run a 10 people team that will be half that size in a few days. Is this something that is coming about as a result of the pandemic?
  - cosmodisk 6y ago
    We were very reliant on consumer credit, while selling services almost twice the going price,which has now gone,so the sales won't be anywhere near of what it used to be.
- londev 6y ago
  I love working from home but I’m about 30-45 minutes out of central London and friends and family often ask me why I don’t want to go into an office in town for the buzz, it must be difficult working at home with a baby running round, etc. I honestly wouldn’t give up working from home for triple my salary. The flexibility to come and go as I please, not losing time to a commute, watching the kid grow up. All priceless to me. However, I have enough bedrooms to use one as an office, a garden I can work in during summer. I can understand if I had to work at the kitchen table with the family making noise around me I would be yearning to go in to the office.
  - 6y ago
vecinu 6y ago
Your coworker is totally on the money with this analysis. More so, I think folks like me that had a 5 minute walking commute are losing out a ton of benefits by not being near the office anymore. I'm lucky the weather's been cooperating but if I had to have the A/C on for days I would easily be spending $60-100/mo just for HVAC, forget the extra water, electricity and other utility costs for the extra usage at home. We got a $500 WFH stipend but it definitely won't cover 12-16 months of this. Overall though, I realize I'm in the minority and most people are winning back their time and money.
- technofiend 6y ago
  I can take public transportation which is $2.50 a day. If I don't then parking downtown is $150 per month in our current building, but no one is allowed to go into the office. We're getting a new building next year when we do return to the office and parking will be $250+ across the street or $300+ for garage attached to the same building. That's what it costs me to run my ancient, inefficient 220 volt window unit and keep an uninsulated wooden garage apartment cool in the summer. I will gladly go back to the office when it's allowed.
- horsawlarway 6y ago
  At least with my own company, the approach has been pretty reasonable. They know they're saving money in the long term on space, and they're splitting that with employees pretty fairly. $1500 up front for all existing employees and all new hires to provision a space to work remote, and a $125 a month in reimbursement for internet/phone/electricity, no questions asked. Frankly, it's made the transition pretty positive for all parties. The company saves a ton in the long term on rental space, and employees get a nice perk. There are still folks that would prefer not being remote, but most folks are pretty happy without a commute.
  - chosenbreed37 6y ago
    Does this mean that the you could go remote permanently? Looks like a great deal.
misterbwong 6y ago
I'm on board with you on not wanting 100% remote anymore. I used to want to work 100% remote but this pandemic has shown me that working in any sort of team remotely is hard to get right (most companies don't). I've come to the conclusion that 3-4 days/wk max is viable and can be healthy. The problem is there's so much information and communication that happens implicitly through our day-to-day actions that when you're remote, you have to make that information explicit. It's tiring as hell. For example, meetings. In person, you can look at a room and understand some basic relationships-who is talking to whom, who is laughing, who is avoiding, etc. This gives you valuable information on the shape of the team and how to navigate and work best with each other. Turn that into a zoom meeting, however, and that information either has to be explicitly pointed out or it is lost. This kind of thing eats up valuable cycles for information that could have been communicated in a literal glance.
- baron_harkonnen 6y ago
  Remote meetings work best when they're frequent, short and small groups. Good remote teams have better communication in my experience because very often "implicit" communication in an office means you think you communicated something but did not. Making all communication explicit is a useful habit to into, and overall improves everything.
progman32 6y ago
@notjim @chosenbreed37 - I chose not to expand because it's specific to my own situation, but: I found remote work isn't for me. A selection of reasons (from pre-and-post covid experience): I find my communication stilted, I really miss hanging out with my colleagues, online whiteboards aren't the same, we have beer and board games, aisle conversations are useful, it's easy to see if it's OK to interrupt someone with a question in-person, and frankly it's motivating to have people bustling around working on stuff directly related to your own work. Half-and-half remote and in-person is probably a good balance for me. Yes a lot of the above reasons are a) privileges and b) can be mitigated with good remote work discipline, but again, it's just my preference. > Really the biggest cost you're leaving off is space though. 100% agree. Many people are literally working in closets or worse, if they even can. @taurath - "Quarantine Work Is Not Remote Work" good point. People are learning to support their remote colleagues right now, whether they intended to or not :) So "normal remote work" might be even better after this chapter concludes.
sergiotapia 6y ago
I had the best of both worlds, I went in once a week - but I loved going in. I met with my team, talked with our people outside my division. Grabbed some good "city miami" food, no "suburb miami" food. It was like a mini-vacation, every week and it energized me for the following week. Hard problem to solve. Other people in the company had to go in every day, and I'm sure they LOVE not having to commute, and for good reason. Companies can't really "rent an office space" for one day a week can they? It's not realistic. I wonder what will work look like in the next 2 years. I'm glad I had a chance to experience the office setting for a year at least.
- mperham 6y ago
  > Companies can't really "rent an office space" for one day a week can they? Not exactly but they could get 1/5 the space and rotate people onsite one day per week.
take_a_breath 6y ago
I’ve been saying this for months on HN and it hasn’t been very well-received. Maybe such a large percentage were already remote that it seems obviously better to them?
scarface74 6y ago
I worked at a job I loved pre-Covid - great coworkers, freedom to tinker, a large amount of autonomy, admin access to our AWS account so I didn’t have to worry about the infrastructure gatekeepers (I was hired as the de facto “cloud architect”), etc. But, I couldn’t stand the loud open office. One of the reasons I changed jobs was because there was talk about us coming back into the office by the end of June. My job (for a FAANG) now was always designed to be fully remote and I couldn’t be happier. I’ve job hopped for the last decade, but there isn’t a dollar amount that would make me go back into the office.
overgard 6y ago
I think saying they're offloading those costs is somewhat unfair since almost all of those things you would be buying anyway even if you went into the office. When I started working from home the only cost that changed for me was buying more coffee, and that's maybe 10 bucks a week.
kerneltime 6y ago
Yes there are trade offs..
- jdm2212 6y ago
  > 4. I am eating healthier Agree with most of these, but man do I ever miss the free and very well provisioned salad bar at the office :( I've eaten more grilled cheese and peanut butter sandwiches during WFH than any self-respecting adult ever should.
deleted 6y ago
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kulahan 6y ago
My brother is also in the "I wanna go back to the office" camp. He misses his co-workers, and it's hard for him to get stuff done with a few young kids at home. I can understand it. Hopefully we just get to the point where people can pick. Seems like the easiest solution.
erdaniels 6y ago
Today I realized what I want most out of going back to the office is just going to lunch with my coworkers. What a nice experience to break up the day.
myself248 6y ago
I was already paying for all those things, and they were sitting idle during the day while I was at the office using another set of them that my employer was paying for. Except the snacks, I miss the free snacks, but my waistline doesn't. I'm curious what the IRS will have to say about it. If self-employed people can deduct a certain amount of their square footage as an "office expense", can I do that too? All those things you just listed are now part of my employment.
bargl 6y ago
And the government. You can (Please check with a CPA before listening to this rando on the internet, I did my homework but it's a big deal and you want to do it correctly and legally) deduct any single purpose office space that you use at home from your taxes.
rm445 6y ago
The company already offloaded the cost of travelling to and from work. My choice to live with a (reasonable) commute, but savings in petrol since March have more than offset other costs.
walrus01 6y ago
I find that the costs of all the things outlined in your list are either: a) Things I would be paying for anyways as part of maintaining my residence or b) Vastly outweighed by the savings in time and vehicle wear/tear by not commuting to and from an office 5 days a week. If we use a figure lower than the official IRS vehicle cost reimbursement, $0.50 per mile, and my commute is 20 miles one way. That's 200 miles a week, same as $100.00/week vehicle expenses, or $5200/year.
elindbe2 6y ago
Those costs really doesn't add up to much for me. Most of the stuff I would have anyways (internet, electricity, HVAC). There's some small marginal increases I suppose. And I would bet that the costs are less than the savings from not commuting (especially if you include the value of your time), not needing new work clothes and not eating out.

taurath 6y ago

I think it depends where you live and your situation. I have coworkers in small NYC studios who just want to get outside. I have others who don't mind not taking the train for an hour a day. Many coworkers have a nice big house to work from. The ones with kids most want to come back, because they appreciate the mental separation they get. Remember, Quarentine Work Is Not Remote Work - https://www.hanselman.com/blog/QuarantineWorkIsNotRemoteWork.aspx https://www.hanselman.com/blog/QuarantineWorkIsNotRemoteWork...

setpatchaddress 6y ago
This. People with many young kids, especially, seem to be absolutely miserable. More interesting than remote/in-office is that we don't seem to be acknowledging the inevitable permanence of social distancing measures. No more four-dudes-in-an-office. No more coming to work with mild cold symptoms.
- taurath 6y ago
  Maybe, oh goodness please, the return of actual OFFICES. With DOORS. Thats the only way you're getting me to come back into a work office, barring a rediculous raise.
  - iso947 6y ago
    I went into the office this week as I had physical work to do in the equipment rooms. Very few people are there (normally 7k, now it’s more like 700 across 10 floors) It’s been so long since I wore headphones I forgot how bad it was. Zooms were difficult as other people in earshot (only 4 people, all about 4m away) were talking at the same time. But if I had an office with a door (like I have at home) and a fixed deal with monitors rather than hunching over a laptop (as I do at home) maybe things would be different.
avremel 6y ago
I'm in a one bedroom Brooklyn apt. Any time I open up my laptop, my 2yr old daughter climbs onto my lap and repetitively hits the caps lock key (it lights up on my laptop). Luckily, I've found alternative places to work from, albeit with less than ideal setups.

chosenbreed37 6y ago

> A coworker of mine recently pointed out that not only are businesses saving money by closing offices, they're I hadn't considered this. I've always thought that many companies are tied to long leases they wouldn't be able to get out of that quickly. I can imagine some savings on the other associated office costs. > I for one am even more in the no-remote-only-gigs camp given recent events. Interesting...could you please elaborate on this?

kayodelycaon 6y ago
My company was at the end of their lease for several office buildings. They’ve since closed all but our largest offices. We have some jobs that can’t be done remotely (security and certification requirements precludes outsourcing.) The remaining offices are running skeleton crews with the heaviest precautions we can do while remaining operational.

danny_sf45 6y ago

Another personal anecdote: in my company nobody wants to go back to the office.

Guest42 6y ago
In my office the parents and people that have their own offices as opposed to cubicles are the only ones looking to return.
- btgeekboy 6y ago
  Sure says a lot about open workspaces.
  - gsk22 6y ago
    No it doesn't, it's just one anecdote. Anecdotally, most people in my office are excited to return, including those who work in an open workspace.
    - therealdrag0 6y ago
      My open office already has a voluntary return; but you gotta wear a mask and get temperature checked. I’ve already been on multiple calls with people in the office.

notJim 6y ago

> I for one am even more in the no-remote-only-gigs camp given recent events. I don't understand this, why? Regarding the rest of your comment, I totally agree. My mom and sister both work for a large, old-fashioned company, and the company didn't even let them take their dual monitors home with them when WFH started. They both had to buy setups out of their own pocket, and these are not people making tech salaries. Really the biggest cost you're leaving off is space though. It's really preferable to have a dedicated space for an office, and this is not free. It's one thing for someone who made a choice to go remote, but for people forced into it, it feels unfair to me. It wouldn't surprise me if in the new world, offices are viewed as a perk rather than a requirement due to all this. I personally work remotely for the record, but talking to many people in my life, it's clear this is not for everyone.

cosmodisk 6y ago
>and the company didn't even let them take their dual monitors home with them when WFH started That is such a low life mentality. Not to give two screens worth $200 to someone who's probably making 10-20 times that a month. What I envisage is super localised hubs,or small office spaces in residential areas. Small building nicely fitting into the area and offering local people some level of office like environment
- iso947 6y ago
  My company wants us to go through 20 years of back emails Because it will save money when they love them to “the cloud” Penny wise pound foolish
philjohn 6y ago
Exactly - I'm lucky in that I made a deliberate decision to have a slightly longer commute because it meant a bigger house and closer to an amazing school my children attend. I'm fortunate to have a proper office that I can enter at the start of the work day, and leave at the end - separating my work and home life. Having to work from your lounge, or kitchen, or worse bedroom makes it much harder to switch off.

draw_down 6y ago

Yes, this downside of remote work almost never gets brought up. I've worked remotely for about 10 years now and have no interest in going back, but I think people should be clear-eyed about what's in it for employers. Not so much coffee and snacks, but office space, desks/monitor/chair, etc. Ethical employers should be offering stipends for these.

randycupertino 6y ago

> the amount of emotion on display when the topic turned to returning to the office strongly suggests people want to go back. Could also be the most vociferous or those worried about losing jobs to outsourcing? Also there's morale at play which could be people wanting to showcase they're all-in for facetime and not wanting to be the only ones without team spirit. imo people will vote with their feet re: remote work by not interviewing or accepting offers at companies that force back to the office. Agree there's a nostalgia factor at play and need for ongoing discussions, I think overall things are going to move towards greater flexibility and maybe flex days/time etc.

egypturnash 6y ago

I just wanna add one thing to this list: - Physical space. If you've got a small home without a spare room to turn into an office, have fun working on the kitchen table!

briandear 6y ago
True, but if you were remote only, you could live in a low cost place and afford a bigger space.
- mynegation 6y ago
  I could but I just do not want to. This pandemic definitely stacked the cards against my living preferences
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  The place is chosen not only for the cost. Some people like to live near the park, or downtown, because theaters museums movies bars dancehalls are all there.
  - sethhochberg 6y ago
    Those of us who genuinely prefer city living and amenities seem to be relatively few among the crowd on HN. I used to work full-time remote, and had the choice to go anywhere I wanted in the world. I still landed in NYC, and stayed because I loved a diverse, walkable community with amazing nightlife, culture, and parks all around. I eventually took a job in an office in the city because I liked having an occasional social environment with coworkers, both in the office and outside of it. Working at home full-time as a person without a family and more social needs than I was willing to admit for a long time was extremely isolating, but I don't want a family yet. I'm eager to go back to the office as soon as it is safe at scale for all the same reasons I was eager to leave my remote job and go into an office again most days originally. Moving somewhere cheap and more isolated to have more space to work at home is about the lowest thing on my priority list. (But I recognize that I'm fortunate to work at a place which always had pretty good tolerance for remote work, even pre-pandemic, even if I didn't take advantage of it... and also lucky to have coworkers who I generally enjoy being around and working with.)

Shivetya 6y ago

I am more that willing to take on those costs to work from home forever because I get the freedom of no commute which not only incurs an obvious cost but puts me at risk each day. I also find my costs reduced because now I am no longer eating out for lunch, let alone because I felt pressure to do so daily. However there are companies that are overly proud of their head quarters and other real estate and are going to be loathe to give it up; this includes elite addresses and locations

bradlys 6y ago
Many people in big tech hubs don't pay for lunch. Work provides it. Now, they all have to pay for lunch that they weren't paying for before because the office is closed. Sometimes this isn't just lunch - but up to 3 meals a day. Same is true with transit. They took a company bus or work paid for public transit. Now, people who were living in spaces where they didn't have a dedicated office space are dying for one. (like myself) And, unfortunately, the competition for homes with more bedrooms has skyrocketed. I'm looking at paying $2000 more a month just so I can get a couple more bedrooms for office work! Moving away for a year or more isn't a real option either.
- godzillabrennus 6y ago
  If tech companies don’t adjust for cost of living and you move you can save money on housing and get more space.
  - take_a_breath 6y ago
    Isn’t that the point though? If the worker has to move in order to get more space, the worker is bearing the costs (literal and opportunity).
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Fringe benefits should always be expected to be transient (meals, commute transportation), and it isn’t wise to include them in total comp calculations (as they’re easier to do away with than your comp).

toss1 6y ago

Definitely a trade-off, as the costs previously mostly foisted off on employees were related to commuting to the office (time, car, parking, public transport, etc.) The leading companies would take account of those costs. One would hope they would also adapt to take acct of home office costs I'm seeing/expecting people will want to go in some, but not back to 5-days in the office. 2-3 days, when necessary to really do things together. If this reduced office loading prevails, it'll also help everyone from workers to cities with the misery & costs of commuting (tho I did read that NPR has lost huge audience due to loss of commute-time listeners).

schwinn140 6y ago

I'm not experiencing this and I would assume anyone employed at a larger or established company would mirror this. I've seen our company quickly react to the reduced office related costs and have reallocated that to cover employee's home office needs: internet service, phone, supplies. If you needed a desk at home, that also was accommodated. Being able to take our work computer(s), including dual monitors, was also immediately available to everyone.

cosmodisk 6y ago

We run two office buildings on the same road: we went to the main one to collect all the IT equipment,pack it up and put it in the other,smaller office. We used to run fully in house. Yes,some people do want to go back to the office but the main reasons are: we were all stuck at home for months,so people do want to regain some sort of normality. Some have difficulties at home,so going to the office is better. Me personally? I run a 10 people team that will be half that size in a few days. I live in a 1 bed flat,so writing unit tests and dealing with dodgy suppliers,while Peppa Pig is blasting in the background can be challenging. However,I don't want to spend 3h on commuting daily.Screw that. The desk cost was about £3K a year,so I'm sure there will be some negotiation space to get something arranged for WFH.

chosenbreed37 6y ago
> I run a 10 people team that will be half that size in a few days. Is this something that is coming about as a result of the pandemic?
- cosmodisk 6y ago
  We were very reliant on consumer credit, while selling services almost twice the going price,which has now gone,so the sales won't be anywhere near of what it used to be.
londev 6y ago
I love working from home but I’m about 30-45 minutes out of central London and friends and family often ask me why I don’t want to go into an office in town for the buzz, it must be difficult working at home with a baby running round, etc. I honestly wouldn’t give up working from home for triple my salary. The flexibility to come and go as I please, not losing time to a commute, watching the kid grow up. All priceless to me. However, I have enough bedrooms to use one as an office, a garden I can work in during summer. I can understand if I had to work at the kitchen table with the family making noise around me I would be yearning to go in to the office.
- 6y ago

vecinu 6y ago

Your coworker is totally on the money with this analysis. More so, I think folks like me that had a 5 minute walking commute are losing out a ton of benefits by not being near the office anymore. I'm lucky the weather's been cooperating but if I had to have the A/C on for days I would easily be spending $60-100/mo just for HVAC, forget the extra water, electricity and other utility costs for the extra usage at home. We got a $500 WFH stipend but it definitely won't cover 12-16 months of this. Overall though, I realize I'm in the minority and most people are winning back their time and money.

technofiend 6y ago
I can take public transportation which is $2.50 a day. If I don't then parking downtown is $150 per month in our current building, but no one is allowed to go into the office. We're getting a new building next year when we do return to the office and parking will be $250+ across the street or $300+ for garage attached to the same building. That's what it costs me to run my ancient, inefficient 220 volt window unit and keep an uninsulated wooden garage apartment cool in the summer. I will gladly go back to the office when it's allowed.
horsawlarway 6y ago
At least with my own company, the approach has been pretty reasonable. They know they're saving money in the long term on space, and they're splitting that with employees pretty fairly. $1500 up front for all existing employees and all new hires to provision a space to work remote, and a $125 a month in reimbursement for internet/phone/electricity, no questions asked. Frankly, it's made the transition pretty positive for all parties. The company saves a ton in the long term on rental space, and employees get a nice perk. There are still folks that would prefer not being remote, but most folks are pretty happy without a commute.
- chosenbreed37 6y ago
  Does this mean that the you could go remote permanently? Looks like a great deal.

misterbwong 6y ago

I'm on board with you on not wanting 100% remote anymore. I used to want to work 100% remote but this pandemic has shown me that working in any sort of team remotely is hard to get right (most companies don't). I've come to the conclusion that 3-4 days/wk max is viable and can be healthy. The problem is there's so much information and communication that happens implicitly through our day-to-day actions that when you're remote, you have to make that information explicit. It's tiring as hell. For example, meetings. In person, you can look at a room and understand some basic relationships-who is talking to whom, who is laughing, who is avoiding, etc. This gives you valuable information on the shape of the team and how to navigate and work best with each other. Turn that into a zoom meeting, however, and that information either has to be explicitly pointed out or it is lost. This kind of thing eats up valuable cycles for information that could have been communicated in a literal glance.

baron_harkonnen 6y ago
Remote meetings work best when they're frequent, short and small groups. Good remote teams have better communication in my experience because very often "implicit" communication in an office means you think you communicated something but did not. Making all communication explicit is a useful habit to into, and overall improves everything.

progman32 6y ago

@notjim @chosenbreed37 - I chose not to expand because it's specific to my own situation, but: I found remote work isn't for me. A selection of reasons (from pre-and-post covid experience): I find my communication stilted, I really miss hanging out with my colleagues, online whiteboards aren't the same, we have beer and board games, aisle conversations are useful, it's easy to see if it's OK to interrupt someone with a question in-person, and frankly it's motivating to have people bustling around working on stuff directly related to your own work. Half-and-half remote and in-person is probably a good balance for me. Yes a lot of the above reasons are a) privileges and b) can be mitigated with good remote work discipline, but again, it's just my preference. > Really the biggest cost you're leaving off is space though. 100% agree. Many people are literally working in closets or worse, if they even can. @taurath - "Quarantine Work Is Not Remote Work" good point. People are learning to support their remote colleagues right now, whether they intended to or not :) So "normal remote work" might be even better after this chapter concludes.

sergiotapia 6y ago

I had the best of both worlds, I went in once a week - but I loved going in. I met with my team, talked with our people outside my division. Grabbed some good "city miami" food, no "suburb miami" food. It was like a mini-vacation, every week and it energized me for the following week. Hard problem to solve. Other people in the company had to go in every day, and I'm sure they LOVE not having to commute, and for good reason. Companies can't really "rent an office space" for one day a week can they? It's not realistic. I wonder what will work look like in the next 2 years. I'm glad I had a chance to experience the office setting for a year at least.

mperham 6y ago
> Companies can't really "rent an office space" for one day a week can they? Not exactly but they could get 1/5 the space and rotate people onsite one day per week.

take_a_breath 6y ago

I’ve been saying this for months on HN and it hasn’t been very well-received. Maybe such a large percentage were already remote that it seems obviously better to them?

scarface74 6y ago

I worked at a job I loved pre-Covid - great coworkers, freedom to tinker, a large amount of autonomy, admin access to our AWS account so I didn’t have to worry about the infrastructure gatekeepers (I was hired as the de facto “cloud architect”), etc. But, I couldn’t stand the loud open office. One of the reasons I changed jobs was because there was talk about us coming back into the office by the end of June. My job (for a FAANG) now was always designed to be fully remote and I couldn’t be happier. I’ve job hopped for the last decade, but there isn’t a dollar amount that would make me go back into the office.

overgard 6y ago

I think saying they're offloading those costs is somewhat unfair since almost all of those things you would be buying anyway even if you went into the office. When I started working from home the only cost that changed for me was buying more coffee, and that's maybe 10 bucks a week.

kerneltime 6y ago

Yes there are trade offs..

jdm2212 6y ago
> 4. I am eating healthier Agree with most of these, but man do I ever miss the free and very well provisioned salad bar at the office :( I've eaten more grilled cheese and peanut butter sandwiches during WFH than any self-respecting adult ever should.

deleted 6y ago

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kulahan 6y ago

My brother is also in the "I wanna go back to the office" camp. He misses his co-workers, and it's hard for him to get stuff done with a few young kids at home. I can understand it. Hopefully we just get to the point where people can pick. Seems like the easiest solution.

erdaniels 6y ago

Today I realized what I want most out of going back to the office is just going to lunch with my coworkers. What a nice experience to break up the day.

myself248 6y ago

I was already paying for all those things, and they were sitting idle during the day while I was at the office using another set of them that my employer was paying for. Except the snacks, I miss the free snacks, but my waistline doesn't. I'm curious what the IRS will have to say about it. If self-employed people can deduct a certain amount of their square footage as an "office expense", can I do that too? All those things you just listed are now part of my employment.

bargl 6y ago

And the government. You can (Please check with a CPA before listening to this rando on the internet, I did my homework but it's a big deal and you want to do it correctly and legally) deduct any single purpose office space that you use at home from your taxes.

rm445 6y ago

The company already offloaded the cost of travelling to and from work. My choice to live with a (reasonable) commute, but savings in petrol since March have more than offset other costs.

walrus01 6y ago

I find that the costs of all the things outlined in your list are either: a) Things I would be paying for anyways as part of maintaining my residence or b) Vastly outweighed by the savings in time and vehicle wear/tear by not commuting to and from an office 5 days a week. If we use a figure lower than the official IRS vehicle cost reimbursement, $0.50 per mile, and my commute is 20 miles one way. That's 200 miles a week, same as $100.00/week vehicle expenses, or $5200/year.

elindbe2 6y ago

Those costs really doesn't add up to much for me. Most of the stuff I would have anyways (internet, electricity, HVAC). There's some small marginal increases I suppose. And I would bet that the costs are less than the savings from not commuting (especially if you include the value of your time), not needing new work clothes and not eating out.