20 ms·

"I won't be spirited away to a black site by speaking ill about the president." It is happening in Oregon. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/18/call-ki

by tintor 6y ago

"I won't be spirited away to a black site by speaking ill about the president." It is happening in Oregon. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/18/call-kidnapping-federal-officers-accused-using-unmarked-cars/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/18/call-kidnapping-...

unchocked 6y ago
Which is aberrant, and is being denounced by political opposition and non-state-controlled media.
- jhardy54 6y ago
  That's great, but as a Portlander I'd prefer that it stopped happing. It seems that the feds are instead escalating further.
  - plato_rx 6y ago
    Once the violent rioters end their rioting the Feds will leave. Perhaps the rioters should just stop rioting?
  - Pokepokalypse 6y ago
    Eventually, they'll be going house-to-house.
- ergothus 6y ago
  How many things have been aberrant and denounced, only to become the regrettable norm in the last few years? When I was a child, the US wouldn't open admit to torture. It didn't have publicly known programs to ship prisoners to other jurisdictions so the U.S. rules of conduct could be bypassed. It didn't have a (publicly known) prison filled with non-U.S. people that were denied a civil trial. It didn't have a president that actively preached for or against public companies outside of criminal matters. When I was a child, a president openly violating ethics concerns WAS a matter of that president getting removed - with such certainty they'd step down to avoid the inevitable result. I'm totally willing to believe that an aberrant behavior doesn't have to become the norm, but I won't believe that should be expected. I've been told all my life to expect that dramatic reactions and concerns are overstated and not the case, that we should all be calm and expect things to work out well, but if I look at the actual events of my life, I see the opposite lessons being taught: Unless we react strongly, clearly, and persistently, progress will not happen and things will slide for the worse. It's not the lesson I want to learn, it's not a lesson I am comfortable with, but it does appear to be what I've seen in the last few decades.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Go back another 30 years and everything you mention was happening as well. JFK - lying about the missile gap with Russia to get elected Johnson - lying about his intentions in Vietnam Nixon - too many to list If anything, I'd say there is more transparency around unethical behavior by elected officials.
    - ekianjo 6y ago
      > If anything, I'd say there is more transparency around unethical behavior by elected officials. Yes, and it's because there are more watchdogs and reporting than ever before, and "the internet does not forget"
    - raverbashing 6y ago
      > I'd say there is more transparency around unethical behavior by elected officials. And politicians using inordinate behaviours as political currency and more people to condone the same absurdities
    - ergothus 6y ago
      > I'd say there is more transparency around unethical behavior by elected officials And that's what worries me - note in my post above I was careful to talk about "public". Before there was a veil of deniability, the idea that at least a pretense of innocence had to be maintained. Now it feels like there is little care to hide it. Sure, many of us are outraged, but that outrage has done nothing to translate into stopping the actions.
      - tdeck 6y ago
        Your perspective really resonates with me, and it reminds me of the old quote "Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue". When people lie to cover up their misdeeds, it at least promotes the collective acknowledgement that we have certain values.
        jacobush 6y ago
- thereare5lights 6y ago
  Which does nothing to stop it from happening
- aww_dang 6y ago
  State controlled media? VOA aside, which network(s) are you referring to here?
  - jacobush 6y ago
    Fox
    - aww_dang 6y ago
      Can this claim be substantiated?
      - jacobush 6y ago
        Yes, but you have to watch Fox
        aww_dang 6y ago
        Seems like they were very critical of the previous administration. They're as partisan as any other network, but I don't see how "state sponsored" applies here.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  "denounced" is not good enough; this should make the government fall and trigger reelections, this should be the trigger that makes people exercise their 2nd amendment and form a militia for their own safety, because civilian are oppressed, murdered and abducted by the police and masked, unmarked militia. But no, let's focus on the Karens who claim oppression because they need to wear a mask in Walmart instead.
  - aww_dang 6y ago
    Interestingly, another BLM (Bureau of Land Management) protest in Oregon did involve armed militia members and was widely denounced by partisans on the opposing spectrum. I recall the racially loaded term "Vanilla ISIS" being used.
djsumdog 6y ago
This article doesn't cover that it's the US Marshals who are involved, and many of their senior people have survived multiple presidents. Also I'm not sure if you've kept up, but antifa shitheads are causing a lot of damage in Portland, Seattle, et. al. The media has barely covered CHAZ/CHOP, an area that had their own corrupt organized crime style police force, and was only shut down after 6 shootings, 2 gunshot deaths, alleged rapes, alleged extortion, a possible execution[0], a 12-party class action lawsuit enjoining all business owners and residents of Capitol Hill against the city of Seattle[1] and protests at the mayor's house. (I use to live in Cap Hill and heard from friends who still lived there; it was a nightmare and they were very glad to see the police finally clear it out). If the US Marshall are arresting people with either warrants or holding them with evidence/charges, I'm totally okay with that. So long as there is transparency and due process of law. I'm sure there are peaceful protestors who might be caught in the chaf, but there are a lot of straight up criminal activity taking advantage of the civil unrest and it does need to be addressed. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imh-wiHzJ24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imh-wiHzJ24 [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRNqSvcLms0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRNqSvcLms0
- shkkmo 6y ago
  > The media has barely covered CHAZ/CHOP Really? I saw it covered relentlessly until it was shut down. > If the US Marshall are arresting people with either warrants or holding them with evidence/charges, I'm totally okay with that. That is not what is being contested. There is video evidence of am incident where "masked federal agents in camouflage gear, with no badges identifying who they work for, arrested a man without telling him what he was being charged with or reading him his Miranda rights. They put him in an unmarked van and drove away." [0] [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2020/07/18/federal-law-enforcement-is-making-unconstitutional-arrests-in-portland/#4b7d002a12a6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2020/07/18/federa...
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    That's not illegal. So long as they have probable cause, and identify as LEO, the police don't have to tell them why they're being charged. That happens at arraignment. They don't even have to read the suspect their rights, so long as they don't ask them any questions (and if they have video evidence of the person doing something, they're not going to bother reading rights or asking questions at all. They're just going to wait until arraignment). The person arrested can challenge that if there is no probably cause (with the right attorney, there is money to be had there) but most don't because ... there's usually probably cause.
plato_rx 6y ago
Violent riots have been ongoing in Portland for almost 2 months. These riots are well documented, but most mainstream media ignores them for political reasons. State and Federal property in Portland has been defaced on an almost nightly basis. Local police are being attacked by violent rioters. Innocent people are being hurt by the rioters and police are in the impossible position of trying to enforce the law in the face of a violent and hostile mob. The Mayor's and Governor's perpetual inaction is becoming intolerable. Enough is enough. I and many others support the Federal Government exercising its legal authority to impose order on the chaos. No one is being "spirited away for speaking ill of Trump". Violent rioters are being dealt with in accordance with the law.
fearingreprisal 6y ago
It's very disingenuous to imply that these people are being arrested ( or whatever other term you'd use ) for purely political reasons. These people are involved in a riot. These people are not being individually targeted based upon their identity. If they were not involved in what is a violent and largely unlawful civil disobedience they would not be apprehended.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  The CCP would state literally the exact same argument to justify their actions : "It's very disingenuous to imply that these people are being arrested for purely political reasons, they are causing social unrest and preventing harmony. They are not being targeted because of their identity, but because of their actions". And it's just as bullshit when China says it and when the Feds say it. There is no justification for black-bagging people. When that happens, it is almost always for political reasons. If it wasn't, then they could use normal legal channels instead of violating the law. By the way, civil disobedience is always illegal. That's what the "disobediance" means.
  - fearingreprisal 6y ago
    There is a very clear difference between "Arrested for disagreeing with Donald Trump" and "Arrested for participation in an illegal act". You know what the difference is. Everyone knows China's crackdown on dissidents is entirely different from people participating in the riot getting arrested by Federal agents in unmarked cars.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      How do you know that they were participating in a riot? By the way, in Oregon, Federal agents are not allowed to carry out such actions without registering beforehand with the State. So this was literally an illegal arrest made by agents of a completely unrelated agency being used in order to do what Donald Trump wants instead of following the process of the law. China's crackdown on dissidents is very similar, they also use the tactic where they push peaceful protests into riots and then use that as an excuse to arrest everyone.
adventured 6y ago
They did the same thing during the Occupy Wall Street movement protests. There is a video of federal agents pulling protesters off the street and into an unmarked car, during that time. The federal response to these protests is far lighter than their response to that protest movement was, they've arrested a lot fewer people and have been far less physical with the protesters. They're using many of the same tactics though: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-co...
- lordvon 6y ago
  You have to make the distinction between violent rioters (namely antifa) and genuine protestors. this is the 2nd high-profile time this attempted hijacking has happened. there is even a meme: look up "bike lock guy" (Internet Historian's video on YouTube is pretty funny). anyways the federal agents are not pulling out random genuine protestors (how would that make sense?). they are pulling out the violent ones.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    There is never, ever, ever any possible excuse for kidnapping people without due process. Ever, ever. Because there's no way to prove that they were violent rioters. They just as well could have been total innocents, and you'd have no way to know.
    - Fjolsvith 6y ago
      Except you'd have no way of knowing whether they knew they were violent rioters.
    - skinkestek 6y ago
      > There is never, ever, ever any possible excuse for kidnapping people without due process. I don't know if you are a native speaker, but the word kidnap might not be the one you should be using. "Kidnap" has strong connotations, and while sime people will happily use that property of the word to create feelings I don't think it is appropriate here. kidnap: abduct (someone) and hold them captive, typically to obtain a ransom. There's a lot to be said about police, federal agents, TSA etc, but lets keep this serious.
lordvon 6y ago
You misunderstand. Do not conflate protestors with violent rioters, who are taking advantage of the protests (as many protestors on the ground can attest). The state government has refused to do anything about violent rioters, even releasing those arrested for felony crimes. Federal agents are picking up where the state government has refused to take action.
- CuriouslyC 6y ago
  Wrong. There is some vandalism and graffiti, but certainly not violent anarchy. Portland is just a far left target.
  - Natsu 6y ago
    Six people have been shot and two have died in CHAZ/CHOP.
    - CuriouslyC 6y ago
      A. That's Seattle B. It's not a thing anymore C. There's evidence that a lot of that was far right extremists What's your point?
      - cloakandswagger 6y ago
        > There's evidence that a lot of that was far right extremists Wishing there was evidence of something is different than there actually being evidence of something.
        CuriouslyC 6y ago
        People being shot by white people in tactical gear that nobody from the zone had seen before, around the same time you have people driving cars into protesters and people trying to shoot protesters with bows, and it's because I wish there was evidence. Riiiiight.
someonehere 6y ago
And what they don’t mention is a group within the protestors tried to fire bomb a federal building. All bets are off when anarchy hits federal buildings like that. Wait for the details of this to come out in the coming weeks.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  If 'all bets are off' when a group 'tries' to attack a government building, then you have a problem with democracy. And 'waiting for the details to come out in a few weeks' is never justified. If the government has just cause, they should ideally show it before they do seemingly illegal actions, especially in the current climate; at the very least, once the governor of the state is suing to get federal agents to stop, any evidence of a just cause should be immediately made public. Since neither has happened, people should act now, not later. Any data that comes to light weeks from now is going to be rightfully suspected of being manufactured anyway.
  - concordDance 6y ago
    > And 'waiting for the details to come out in a few weeks' is never justified. Given how distorted and contextless the politically relevant information we get is, waiting a few weeks for the details is almost always the right choice. This situation may be an exception but I doubt it.
    - tsimionescu 6y ago
      Doing nothing is not a default position in this type of situation - it is an active choice. This is similar to the pandemic. If you stop and wait for more data, you're not taking a conservative approach, you're deciding based on the available data that the best course of action is to do nothing.
      - concordDance 6y ago
        With an information environment as awful as the current one? That choice is still normally the best one.
calvinmorrison 6y ago
"kidnapping"
ekianjo 6y ago
Alternative take on this: they may be evacuating agents who were posing as protesters.
- jacobush 6y ago
  Too many have come forward for that to be the entire explanation. Even if it were true, how is that not also horrible? Are we just accepting agent provocateurs as how things should be now?
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    > Are we just accepting agent provocateurs as how things should be now? It's not about accepting it, it's been knowingly used for decades in different countries around the world. Why would the US be immune to it?
refurb 6y ago
It's unbelievable how disconnected that article is to reality. 1. Cops pull over people and arrest them all the time using unmarked cars - why is it an issue now? 2. The cops are identified as such (that's the badge on the shoulder). Undercover cops can arrest people too - why is it any issue? 3. These people are being arrested and released - doesn't sound like kidnapping to me. Sounds like law enforcement doing their job. But hey, the never let the truth get in the way of your political goals, right?
- onion2k 6y ago
  These people are being arrested and released - doesn't sound like kidnapping to me. Sounds like law enforcement doing their job. People are arrested and released because they haven't committed a crime. Arresting people who haven't done anything wrong is not the job of the police.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Haven't done anything wrong? It's all public info.[1] The Portland Police are arresting people for disturbing the peace. So are the federal police, the only difference is the people they are arresting are being release because the Portland DA chooses not to press charges. It's all political. I don't know about you, but I'd be more concerned about the Portland justice system being perverted just to stick it to Trump. [1]https://www.mcso.us/PAID/Home/Booking/1506008/1517573 https://www.mcso.us/PAID/Home/Booking/1506008/1517573
    - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
      Just because in the US we slap the catch-all "Disturbing the peace" charge on folks doesn't mean it's much better than the Chinese.
      - Mary-Jane 6y ago
        This. While it's sad that we wait till we can pin these activities on the other party, it's good to see us finally acknowledging the problem. I almost hope Trump wins the next election because if Biden does we'll all go back to ignoring these kinds of problems.

by tintor 6y ago

unchocked 6y ago

Which is aberrant, and is being denounced by political opposition and non-state-controlled media.

jhardy54 6y ago
That's great, but as a Portlander I'd prefer that it stopped happing. It seems that the feds are instead escalating further.
- plato_rx 6y ago
  Once the violent rioters end their rioting the Feds will leave. Perhaps the rioters should just stop rioting?
- Pokepokalypse 6y ago
  Eventually, they'll be going house-to-house.
ergothus 6y ago
How many things have been aberrant and denounced, only to become the regrettable norm in the last few years? When I was a child, the US wouldn't open admit to torture. It didn't have publicly known programs to ship prisoners to other jurisdictions so the U.S. rules of conduct could be bypassed. It didn't have a (publicly known) prison filled with non-U.S. people that were denied a civil trial. It didn't have a president that actively preached for or against public companies outside of criminal matters. When I was a child, a president openly violating ethics concerns WAS a matter of that president getting removed - with such certainty they'd step down to avoid the inevitable result. I'm totally willing to believe that an aberrant behavior doesn't have to become the norm, but I won't believe that should be expected. I've been told all my life to expect that dramatic reactions and concerns are overstated and not the case, that we should all be calm and expect things to work out well, but if I look at the actual events of my life, I see the opposite lessons being taught: Unless we react strongly, clearly, and persistently, progress will not happen and things will slide for the worse. It's not the lesson I want to learn, it's not a lesson I am comfortable with, but it does appear to be what I've seen in the last few decades.
- refurb 6y ago
  Go back another 30 years and everything you mention was happening as well. JFK - lying about the missile gap with Russia to get elected Johnson - lying about his intentions in Vietnam Nixon - too many to list If anything, I'd say there is more transparency around unethical behavior by elected officials.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    > If anything, I'd say there is more transparency around unethical behavior by elected officials. Yes, and it's because there are more watchdogs and reporting than ever before, and "the internet does not forget"
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    > I'd say there is more transparency around unethical behavior by elected officials. And politicians using inordinate behaviours as political currency and more people to condone the same absurdities
  - ergothus 6y ago
    > I'd say there is more transparency around unethical behavior by elected officials And that's what worries me - note in my post above I was careful to talk about "public". Before there was a veil of deniability, the idea that at least a pretense of innocence had to be maintained. Now it feels like there is little care to hide it. Sure, many of us are outraged, but that outrage has done nothing to translate into stopping the actions.
    - tdeck 6y ago
      Your perspective really resonates with me, and it reminds me of the old quote "Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue". When people lie to cover up their misdeeds, it at least promotes the collective acknowledgement that we have certain values.
      - jacobush 6y ago
thereare5lights 6y ago
Which does nothing to stop it from happening
aww_dang 6y ago
State controlled media? VOA aside, which network(s) are you referring to here?
- jacobush 6y ago
  Fox
  - aww_dang 6y ago
    Can this claim be substantiated?
    - jacobush 6y ago
      Yes, but you have to watch Fox
      - aww_dang 6y ago
        Seems like they were very critical of the previous administration. They're as partisan as any other network, but I don't see how "state sponsored" applies here.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
"denounced" is not good enough; this should make the government fall and trigger reelections, this should be the trigger that makes people exercise their 2nd amendment and form a militia for their own safety, because civilian are oppressed, murdered and abducted by the police and masked, unmarked militia. But no, let's focus on the Karens who claim oppression because they need to wear a mask in Walmart instead.
- aww_dang 6y ago
  Interestingly, another BLM (Bureau of Land Management) protest in Oregon did involve armed militia members and was widely denounced by partisans on the opposing spectrum. I recall the racially loaded term "Vanilla ISIS" being used.

djsumdog 6y ago

This article doesn't cover that it's the US Marshals who are involved, and many of their senior people have survived multiple presidents. Also I'm not sure if you've kept up, but antifa shitheads are causing a lot of damage in Portland, Seattle, et. al. The media has barely covered CHAZ/CHOP, an area that had their own corrupt organized crime style police force, and was only shut down after 6 shootings, 2 gunshot deaths, alleged rapes, alleged extortion, a possible execution[0], a 12-party class action lawsuit enjoining all business owners and residents of Capitol Hill against the city of Seattle[1] and protests at the mayor's house. (I use to live in Cap Hill and heard from friends who still lived there; it was a nightmare and they were very glad to see the police finally clear it out). If the US Marshall are arresting people with either warrants or holding them with evidence/charges, I'm totally okay with that. So long as there is transparency and due process of law. I'm sure there are peaceful protestors who might be caught in the chaf, but there are a lot of straight up criminal activity taking advantage of the civil unrest and it does need to be addressed. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imh-wiHzJ24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imh-wiHzJ24 [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRNqSvcLms0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRNqSvcLms0

shkkmo 6y ago
> The media has barely covered CHAZ/CHOP Really? I saw it covered relentlessly until it was shut down. > If the US Marshall are arresting people with either warrants or holding them with evidence/charges, I'm totally okay with that. That is not what is being contested. There is video evidence of am incident where "masked federal agents in camouflage gear, with no badges identifying who they work for, arrested a man without telling him what he was being charged with or reading him his Miranda rights. They put him in an unmarked van and drove away." [0] [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2020/07/18/federal-law-enforcement-is-making-unconstitutional-arrests-in-portland/#4b7d002a12a6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2020/07/18/federa...
- djsumdog 6y ago
  That's not illegal. So long as they have probable cause, and identify as LEO, the police don't have to tell them why they're being charged. That happens at arraignment. They don't even have to read the suspect their rights, so long as they don't ask them any questions (and if they have video evidence of the person doing something, they're not going to bother reading rights or asking questions at all. They're just going to wait until arraignment). The person arrested can challenge that if there is no probably cause (with the right attorney, there is money to be had there) but most don't because ... there's usually probably cause.

plato_rx 6y ago

Violent riots have been ongoing in Portland for almost 2 months. These riots are well documented, but most mainstream media ignores them for political reasons. State and Federal property in Portland has been defaced on an almost nightly basis. Local police are being attacked by violent rioters. Innocent people are being hurt by the rioters and police are in the impossible position of trying to enforce the law in the face of a violent and hostile mob. The Mayor's and Governor's perpetual inaction is becoming intolerable. Enough is enough. I and many others support the Federal Government exercising its legal authority to impose order on the chaos. No one is being "spirited away for speaking ill of Trump". Violent rioters are being dealt with in accordance with the law.

fearingreprisal 6y ago

It's very disingenuous to imply that these people are being arrested ( or whatever other term you'd use ) for purely political reasons. These people are involved in a riot. These people are not being individually targeted based upon their identity. If they were not involved in what is a violent and largely unlawful civil disobedience they would not be apprehended.

sudosysgen 6y ago
The CCP would state literally the exact same argument to justify their actions : "It's very disingenuous to imply that these people are being arrested for purely political reasons, they are causing social unrest and preventing harmony. They are not being targeted because of their identity, but because of their actions". And it's just as bullshit when China says it and when the Feds say it. There is no justification for black-bagging people. When that happens, it is almost always for political reasons. If it wasn't, then they could use normal legal channels instead of violating the law. By the way, civil disobedience is always illegal. That's what the "disobediance" means.
- fearingreprisal 6y ago
  There is a very clear difference between "Arrested for disagreeing with Donald Trump" and "Arrested for participation in an illegal act". You know what the difference is. Everyone knows China's crackdown on dissidents is entirely different from people participating in the riot getting arrested by Federal agents in unmarked cars.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    How do you know that they were participating in a riot? By the way, in Oregon, Federal agents are not allowed to carry out such actions without registering beforehand with the State. So this was literally an illegal arrest made by agents of a completely unrelated agency being used in order to do what Donald Trump wants instead of following the process of the law. China's crackdown on dissidents is very similar, they also use the tactic where they push peaceful protests into riots and then use that as an excuse to arrest everyone.

adventured 6y ago

They did the same thing during the Occupy Wall Street movement protests. There is a video of federal agents pulling protesters off the street and into an unmarked car, during that time. The federal response to these protests is far lighter than their response to that protest movement was, they've arrested a lot fewer people and have been far less physical with the protesters. They're using many of the same tactics though: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-co...

lordvon 6y ago
You have to make the distinction between violent rioters (namely antifa) and genuine protestors. this is the 2nd high-profile time this attempted hijacking has happened. there is even a meme: look up "bike lock guy" (Internet Historian's video on YouTube is pretty funny). anyways the federal agents are not pulling out random genuine protestors (how would that make sense?). they are pulling out the violent ones.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  There is never, ever, ever any possible excuse for kidnapping people without due process. Ever, ever. Because there's no way to prove that they were violent rioters. They just as well could have been total innocents, and you'd have no way to know.
  - Fjolsvith 6y ago
    Except you'd have no way of knowing whether they knew they were violent rioters.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    > There is never, ever, ever any possible excuse for kidnapping people without due process. I don't know if you are a native speaker, but the word kidnap might not be the one you should be using. "Kidnap" has strong connotations, and while sime people will happily use that property of the word to create feelings I don't think it is appropriate here. kidnap: abduct (someone) and hold them captive, typically to obtain a ransom. There's a lot to be said about police, federal agents, TSA etc, but lets keep this serious.

lordvon 6y ago

You misunderstand. Do not conflate protestors with violent rioters, who are taking advantage of the protests (as many protestors on the ground can attest). The state government has refused to do anything about violent rioters, even releasing those arrested for felony crimes. Federal agents are picking up where the state government has refused to take action.

CuriouslyC 6y ago
Wrong. There is some vandalism and graffiti, but certainly not violent anarchy. Portland is just a far left target.
- Natsu 6y ago
  Six people have been shot and two have died in CHAZ/CHOP.
  - CuriouslyC 6y ago
    A. That's Seattle B. It's not a thing anymore C. There's evidence that a lot of that was far right extremists What's your point?
    - cloakandswagger 6y ago
      > There's evidence that a lot of that was far right extremists Wishing there was evidence of something is different than there actually being evidence of something.
      - CuriouslyC 6y ago
        People being shot by white people in tactical gear that nobody from the zone had seen before, around the same time you have people driving cars into protesters and people trying to shoot protesters with bows, and it's because I wish there was evidence. Riiiiight.

someonehere 6y ago

And what they don’t mention is a group within the protestors tried to fire bomb a federal building. All bets are off when anarchy hits federal buildings like that. Wait for the details of this to come out in the coming weeks.

tsimionescu 6y ago
If 'all bets are off' when a group 'tries' to attack a government building, then you have a problem with democracy. And 'waiting for the details to come out in a few weeks' is never justified. If the government has just cause, they should ideally show it before they do seemingly illegal actions, especially in the current climate; at the very least, once the governor of the state is suing to get federal agents to stop, any evidence of a just cause should be immediately made public. Since neither has happened, people should act now, not later. Any data that comes to light weeks from now is going to be rightfully suspected of being manufactured anyway.
- concordDance 6y ago
  > And 'waiting for the details to come out in a few weeks' is never justified. Given how distorted and contextless the politically relevant information we get is, waiting a few weeks for the details is almost always the right choice. This situation may be an exception but I doubt it.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    Doing nothing is not a default position in this type of situation - it is an active choice. This is similar to the pandemic. If you stop and wait for more data, you're not taking a conservative approach, you're deciding based on the available data that the best course of action is to do nothing.
    - concordDance 6y ago
      With an information environment as awful as the current one? That choice is still normally the best one.

calvinmorrison 6y ago

"kidnapping"

ekianjo 6y ago

Alternative take on this: they may be evacuating agents who were posing as protesters.

jacobush 6y ago
Too many have come forward for that to be the entire explanation. Even if it were true, how is that not also horrible? Are we just accepting agent provocateurs as how things should be now?
- ekianjo 6y ago
  > Are we just accepting agent provocateurs as how things should be now? It's not about accepting it, it's been knowingly used for decades in different countries around the world. Why would the US be immune to it?

refurb 6y ago

It's unbelievable how disconnected that article is to reality. 1. Cops pull over people and arrest them all the time using unmarked cars - why is it an issue now? 2. The cops are identified as such (that's the badge on the shoulder). Undercover cops can arrest people too - why is it any issue? 3. These people are being arrested and released - doesn't sound like kidnapping to me. Sounds like law enforcement doing their job. But hey, the never let the truth get in the way of your political goals, right?

onion2k 6y ago
These people are being arrested and released - doesn't sound like kidnapping to me. Sounds like law enforcement doing their job. People are arrested and released because they haven't committed a crime. Arresting people who haven't done anything wrong is not the job of the police.
- refurb 6y ago
  Haven't done anything wrong? It's all public info.[1] The Portland Police are arresting people for disturbing the peace. So are the federal police, the only difference is the people they are arresting are being release because the Portland DA chooses not to press charges. It's all political. I don't know about you, but I'd be more concerned about the Portland justice system being perverted just to stick it to Trump. [1]https://www.mcso.us/PAID/Home/Booking/1506008/1517573 https://www.mcso.us/PAID/Home/Booking/1506008/1517573
  - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
    Just because in the US we slap the catch-all "Disturbing the peace" charge on folks doesn't mean it's much better than the Chinese.
    - Mary-Jane 6y ago
      This. While it's sad that we wait till we can pin these activities on the other party, it's good to see us finally acknowledging the problem. I almost hope Trump wins the next election because if Biden does we'll all go back to ignoring these kinds of problems.