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I work in the travel industry as a programmer (god only knows for how much longer) - I can tell you that Sabre and other GDS's are only used if you go through a

I work in the travel industry as a programmer (god only knows for how much longer) - I can tell you that Sabre and other GDS's are only used if you go through a travel agent or use some online reservation systems. If you book through the airline's systems or on online reservation systems they likely use the airline's systems to track travel instead of GDS since the GDS wants to take a big cut of every ticket sale. And obviously only legacy travel companies like Hertz and Mariott integrate with GDS's, new travel companies Uber and Airbnb likely don't have any relationship with Sabre. You're only likely to be in a Sabre system if you've been booked by your company through a travel agent and rent using legacy car/hotel companies also through your company's travel agent.

ta17711771 6y ago
So, corporate bigwhig types who don't understand technology?
- skim_milk 6y ago
  Having travel agents for companies is actually a good idea, having someone work to set up travel for workers saves a crapload of time and money for everyone and better done if its outsourced to someone that knows travel. Lots of board and CXX whigs book their vacations through their agent on their company's dime as a part of their benefits package which is actually a great deal for them. I'm more of a thrill seeker so I wouldn't use one but the average person who just wants a stable planned-out vacation that they only get once a year it's a really good idea.
  - BryanBigs 6y ago
    At my old SP500 firm, Corp travel agents were always - and I mean ALWAYS - worse than what I could get from the airline directly. Why? Internal accounting. Some part of HR got to count part of the "fee" as revenue, billed against my travel budget. Insane. Once that became common knowledge, my coworkers and I were 'strongky encouraged' by our department head to buy travel with our Corp cards. This led to a strongly worded memo from the head of HR at FY end demanding we stop the process. That led to meetings, committees, more dueling memos. Great use of everyone's time. I am so glad I don't work there anymore.
    - Spooky23 6y ago
      Yup, that's pretty common with legacy contracts. Internal accounting bullshit ruins all sorts of things. I worked at a place where "thou shalt" use some stupid travel agent to buy intercity train tickets. You had to call the company and pick up the paper ticket in some inconvenient place between the hours of 10-3, closed from 12-1. The ticket cost ~$5-10 more than buying it at the train station, split between the travel agent and procurement group, unless you purchased it a month in advance, and could be used for 6 months. The "hack" was that business units with lots of travel would buy 100 at a time every couple of months, and you'd need to find a secretary with a stash to get a paper ticket. I would ply them with my wife's baking to ensure a steady supply. Not surprisingly, many tickets were wasted unused (in pursuit of saving the $5), or people took unnecessary trips to avoid wasting money on tickets (and wasting 3x more in per diems, etc). The next innovation was to declare that the trip was an emergency, and then you could buy the ticket from the conductor, in cash. The penance for less hassle is that you had to write a sad tale about why attending a training class met some standard for "emergency" travel.
    - cosmie 6y ago
      My company used to be like that, but was acquired last year and the company that acquired us has such a refreshing travel process: - Booking fees are itemized and stated up front. $3 for bookings handled 100% via the online reservation system, $25 if you ever have to talk to an actual agent. - The online reservation system shows publicly listed rates as well as negotiated rates, and you're free to choose what you want within policy. The negotiated rates were virtually never the cheapest, but they also tended to come with a lot more flexibility (i.e. no change fees, refundable up to time of departure, 24 hour cancellation of hotel reservations, etc). Those two aspects, combined with the fact that the travel would ultimately be booked to your card on file anyway (generally a corp card for anyone traveling frequently), pretty much negates any incentive to go outside of the official travel system. Depending on the trip and your travel budget, you can either go with the riskier but cheaper options or go with the more flexible but also more expensive options. The default booking fee is tiny enough to be understandable, and the incremental $22 fee ends up well worth it in the situations you need to call the travel team's 1-800 number to get you out of a bind. The old system didn't bother me much as I was used to it being The Way Companies Are. But after being spoiled here, I dread the day I end up in another travel-heavy job and have to go back to the more typical Big Corp travel process.
  - Xylakant 6y ago
    I've seen engineers with a three digit hourly rate spend multiple hours trying to achieve double digit savings.
- cosmie 6y ago
  Corporate bigwig types (whether technical or otherwise) are generally not booking their own travel - that's what executive assistants are for. I'm a technologically literate corporate peon, and still booked >$15k in travel last year through SABRE via our online corporate booking system, and about $10k in bookings executed manually by our travel team. The online bookings still routed through an internal travel agent for final approval and execution of the booking, but I never actually interacted with anyone. The manual bookings were the only time I ever spoke with an agent, and it was almost always to handle an itinerary that was too complex for the UI of the online booking system to accommodate.
walrus01 6y ago
You think US intelligence doesn't have access to other major airlines' back end databases, or things like major hotels' reward programs, airbnb, uber, lyft?
- monksy 6y ago
  They have PNRs https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/ask-ars-can-i-see-what-the-feds-know-about-where-ive-traveled/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/ask-ars-can-i-se...
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  As someone who has worked on security for said systems, and who is somewhat familiar with the types of requests that are serviced to LEAs and TLAs, I do think that they don’t have access to back end databases. What, you think we set up a VPN for them so their SQL client in Fort Meade can just query as they please? Or do you think they hack us?
  - gruez 6y ago
    There's precedent for all the things you described. >What, you think we set up a VPN for them so their SQL client in Fort Meade can just query as they please? https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/12801415/prism-slide-4.1419979622.jpg https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/12801415/p... >Or do you think they hack us? https://i.stack.imgur.com/jWW5v.jpg https://i.stack.imgur.com/jWW5v.jpg
    - JoeSmithson 6y ago
      Your first link doesn't support your quote. The queries are sent to the data holder who send back the data, the agency does not have direct access
      - gruez 6y ago
        >the agency does not have direct access Sure, NSA can't directly query against whatever database gmail uses to store your email, but they still have all your emails, photos, and login history. As far as your privacy is concerned, there isn't really any meaningful difference.
112012123 6y ago
Definitely depends on the airline. The big US carriers all have their own systems, but the vast majority of foreign carriers use a GDS on their backend. It's just not worth building in-house unless you're at very large scale.
- Svip 6y ago
  Old non-US airlines definitely have their own systems. I know Scandinavian Airlines have their own, and it looks like Lufthansa and KLM-Air France do too.[0] I would be surprised if say British Airways didn't. [0] https://www.emirates247.com/business/corporate/buying-ticket-from-airline-website-cheaper-than-travel-agency-2015-06-12-1.593520 https://www.emirates247.com/business/corporate/buying-ticket...
  - Uberphallus 6y ago
    Nope, they all use Amadeus, except for Scandinavian Airlines. Actually Lufthansa and Air France CREATED Amadeus to consolidate their GDS operations. They're now pissed because Amadeus takes a piece of the cake and plays weird pricing shenanigans, but they're still there. Source: worked at Amadeus.
    - BrandoElFollito 6y ago
      This creation is also visible through the split between France (R&D in South of France) and Germany (datacenters and operations)
  - 112012123 6y ago
    These guys do use Amadeus on the backend to manage their ticket inventory. Specifically Amadeus Altea - though you are correct that they try very hard to avoid paying GDS distribution fees for selling tickets through the GDS third party sales channels (which is what that article is discussing).
useful 6y ago
The industry is moving to a being able to purchase products instead of complete PSS/GDS solutions. As an airline you'll be able to buy an inventory management system from Amadeus, a pricing system from Sabre, a support system from TravelSky, and a website from Travelport. The best example I can think of is American. They have Amadeus running their international website. Their ticketing system is internal. And all their inventory is managed in Sabre. Southwest was similar, for a while Amadeus ran their international site while Southwest ran an outdated internal system for domestic travel that didnt support flights leaving and arriving on different days. They eventually had Amadeus move into running their domestic stuff a few years ago and now they have red-eyes. Delta runs all their own stuff on a mainframe and from the outside it looked like a slow moving disaster. I know Amadeus sees all their inventory and looks at each passenger.
- dave5104 6y ago
  > They eventually had Amadeus move into running their domestic stuff a few years ago and now they have red-eyes. Heh. I remember thinking years back that it was odd that Southwest never had any overnight flights, especially transcontinental. Just assumed it was the way they did business and some sort of cost cutting measure. Didn't think it'd be due to a software limitation!
  - redbeard0x0a 6y ago
    > due to a software limitation This _is_ a cost cutting measure. They decided not to pay for their software to support red eyes.
    - jakub_g 6y ago
      In case someone is as confused as me wth the discussion is about (never heard that jargon): > In commercial aviation, a red-eye flight is a flight scheduled to depart at night and arrive the next morning. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-eye_flight https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-eye_flight
  - 112012123 6y ago
znpy 6y ago
Is there a way to know if you've gone through sabre?
- opportune 6y ago
  If you’re an EU resident, I’m guessing you could force their hand using GDPR?
  - bitdivision 6y ago
    Looking at their website they have GDPR forms for employees and for clients, but they don't have anything for Joe Public, not sure if this is because they don't 'own' the data themselves?
  - Technetium 6y ago
    I'm going to say that's probably a hard no. If you're not cleared then certain documents will just not exist or would come back saying that some information has been redacted for national security reasons. You can see some examples of such requests here if you search hard enough https://www.muckrock.com https://www.muckrock.com
cm2187 6y ago
When you mean travel agent, do you also include the likes of expedia, opodo, etc?
- splonk 6y ago
  Both of them also have GDS integrations. I don't know exactly how much but I'd assume it's the bulk of their traffic. As a general rule the large majority of anything you don't book directly with the airline/hotel (and for all I know, some of what you do) is very likely to be in a GDS somewhere.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
  Yes, they are called OTAs - Online Travel Agencies.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  Or Orbitz?
aahhahahaaa 6y ago
They don't use a GDS on the front end, but doesn't all that data feed into a GDS somewhere on the backend? I don't know much about Sabre but I know Amadeus reaches pretty far across everything.
- skim_milk 6y ago
  Travel agencies still like to use the frontend even though they're even less user friendly than VIM. This isn't the right time for it but once upon a time you could research what travel agencies use what GDS by the job requirements these agencies put out - usually you need like 5 years experience with Sabre/Apollo/whatever for any job here. Once your travel details are in the GDS then the airline clerks, car rental sales person, hotel clerks, and your travel agent can check out or update your travel info for you just based on the PNR number on your airline ticket for convenience if you're just not into that weird smartphone thing. You can change a bunch of things during the trip like what car you drive and hotel amenities during your stay so after the trip ends we download your trip from Sabre and build reports for your boss or whatever.
keithnz 6y ago
I used to work for Sabre, they do a lot more than just bookings, they provide all the software to run an airline basically. I worked in the area for scheduling air crew. But also crossed over into all the flight tracking. Their systems hold a lot of data, though the airlines own and host that data in secure facilities. Fun Facts, when I worked there, you could fly for free on American Airlines ( the company got split out from AA ). They claimed to employ the most PhDs at one time ( lots of operations research). Also claimed to invent database transactions for the problem of people trying to book the same seat on airplanes at the same time (early 60s I believe)
squeaky-clean 6y ago
Also a travel industry programmer. Same feelings about for how much longer, heh. > If you book through the airline's systems or on online reservation systems they likely use the airline's systems to track travel instead of GDS since the GDS wants to take a big cut of every ticket sale. But in my experience, the airline backend and pricing is usually outsourced to Sabre or Amadeus. Frontier and Southwest are the only big players I know of that handle that sort of thing themselves, and Frontier has a teeny-tiny routelist compared to the others.
- namdnay 6y ago
  Southwest is Amadeus too now :)
- tyingq 6y ago
  "But in my experience, the airline backend and pricing is usually outsourced to Sabre or Amadeus" True, but that doesn't make the reservations visible in the GDS. If Sabre or Amadeus is running your "CRS (Central Res System)", they aren't allowed to do anything with the data that you haven't asked them to.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
baybal2 6y ago
> I can tell you that Sabre and other GDS's are only used if you go through a travel agent or use some online reservation systems. It doesn't change the fact that a state will get the PNR from the airline.
77pt77 6y ago
Many tickets I've bough in Europe via the airline's website were using amadeus (spanish?).
dagoban 6y ago
not true. BA,LH,LX,OS,AF,KL,... all run on AMA AA runs on Sabre Its actually the other way around, some airlines have their own system, but most use some sort of GDS. i.e. even when you make a booking directly with one of the airlines above mentioned, the entire PNR is still created and used in a GDS. Even when you use Farelogix (for LH NDC bookings for example) the entire PNR also gets created in AMA. When you want to make changes in the LH PNR that FLX does not support yet, you still have to make the changes in the AMA PNR.

ta17711771 6y ago

So, corporate bigwhig types who don't understand technology?

skim_milk 6y ago
Having travel agents for companies is actually a good idea, having someone work to set up travel for workers saves a crapload of time and money for everyone and better done if its outsourced to someone that knows travel. Lots of board and CXX whigs book their vacations through their agent on their company's dime as a part of their benefits package which is actually a great deal for them. I'm more of a thrill seeker so I wouldn't use one but the average person who just wants a stable planned-out vacation that they only get once a year it's a really good idea.
- BryanBigs 6y ago
  At my old SP500 firm, Corp travel agents were always - and I mean ALWAYS - worse than what I could get from the airline directly. Why? Internal accounting. Some part of HR got to count part of the "fee" as revenue, billed against my travel budget. Insane. Once that became common knowledge, my coworkers and I were 'strongky encouraged' by our department head to buy travel with our Corp cards. This led to a strongly worded memo from the head of HR at FY end demanding we stop the process. That led to meetings, committees, more dueling memos. Great use of everyone's time. I am so glad I don't work there anymore.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    Yup, that's pretty common with legacy contracts. Internal accounting bullshit ruins all sorts of things. I worked at a place where "thou shalt" use some stupid travel agent to buy intercity train tickets. You had to call the company and pick up the paper ticket in some inconvenient place between the hours of 10-3, closed from 12-1. The ticket cost ~$5-10 more than buying it at the train station, split between the travel agent and procurement group, unless you purchased it a month in advance, and could be used for 6 months. The "hack" was that business units with lots of travel would buy 100 at a time every couple of months, and you'd need to find a secretary with a stash to get a paper ticket. I would ply them with my wife's baking to ensure a steady supply. Not surprisingly, many tickets were wasted unused (in pursuit of saving the $5), or people took unnecessary trips to avoid wasting money on tickets (and wasting 3x more in per diems, etc). The next innovation was to declare that the trip was an emergency, and then you could buy the ticket from the conductor, in cash. The penance for less hassle is that you had to write a sad tale about why attending a training class met some standard for "emergency" travel.
  - cosmie 6y ago
    My company used to be like that, but was acquired last year and the company that acquired us has such a refreshing travel process: - Booking fees are itemized and stated up front. $3 for bookings handled 100% via the online reservation system, $25 if you ever have to talk to an actual agent. - The online reservation system shows publicly listed rates as well as negotiated rates, and you're free to choose what you want within policy. The negotiated rates were virtually never the cheapest, but they also tended to come with a lot more flexibility (i.e. no change fees, refundable up to time of departure, 24 hour cancellation of hotel reservations, etc). Those two aspects, combined with the fact that the travel would ultimately be booked to your card on file anyway (generally a corp card for anyone traveling frequently), pretty much negates any incentive to go outside of the official travel system. Depending on the trip and your travel budget, you can either go with the riskier but cheaper options or go with the more flexible but also more expensive options. The default booking fee is tiny enough to be understandable, and the incremental $22 fee ends up well worth it in the situations you need to call the travel team's 1-800 number to get you out of a bind. The old system didn't bother me much as I was used to it being The Way Companies Are. But after being spoiled here, I dread the day I end up in another travel-heavy job and have to go back to the more typical Big Corp travel process.
- Xylakant 6y ago
  I've seen engineers with a three digit hourly rate spend multiple hours trying to achieve double digit savings.
cosmie 6y ago
Corporate bigwig types (whether technical or otherwise) are generally not booking their own travel - that's what executive assistants are for. I'm a technologically literate corporate peon, and still booked >$15k in travel last year through SABRE via our online corporate booking system, and about $10k in bookings executed manually by our travel team. The online bookings still routed through an internal travel agent for final approval and execution of the booking, but I never actually interacted with anyone. The manual bookings were the only time I ever spoke with an agent, and it was almost always to handle an itinerary that was too complex for the UI of the online booking system to accommodate.

walrus01 6y ago

You think US intelligence doesn't have access to other major airlines' back end databases, or things like major hotels' reward programs, airbnb, uber, lyft?

monksy 6y ago
They have PNRs https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/ask-ars-can-i-see-what-the-feds-know-about-where-ive-traveled/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/ask-ars-can-i-se...
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
As someone who has worked on security for said systems, and who is somewhat familiar with the types of requests that are serviced to LEAs and TLAs, I do think that they don’t have access to back end databases. What, you think we set up a VPN for them so their SQL client in Fort Meade can just query as they please? Or do you think they hack us?
- gruez 6y ago
  There's precedent for all the things you described. >What, you think we set up a VPN for them so their SQL client in Fort Meade can just query as they please? https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/12801415/prism-slide-4.1419979622.jpg https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/12801415/p... >Or do you think they hack us? https://i.stack.imgur.com/jWW5v.jpg https://i.stack.imgur.com/jWW5v.jpg
  - JoeSmithson 6y ago
    Your first link doesn't support your quote. The queries are sent to the data holder who send back the data, the agency does not have direct access
    - gruez 6y ago
      >the agency does not have direct access Sure, NSA can't directly query against whatever database gmail uses to store your email, but they still have all your emails, photos, and login history. As far as your privacy is concerned, there isn't really any meaningful difference.

112012123 6y ago

Definitely depends on the airline. The big US carriers all have their own systems, but the vast majority of foreign carriers use a GDS on their backend. It's just not worth building in-house unless you're at very large scale.

Svip 6y ago
Old non-US airlines definitely have their own systems. I know Scandinavian Airlines have their own, and it looks like Lufthansa and KLM-Air France do too.[0] I would be surprised if say British Airways didn't. [0] https://www.emirates247.com/business/corporate/buying-ticket-from-airline-website-cheaper-than-travel-agency-2015-06-12-1.593520 https://www.emirates247.com/business/corporate/buying-ticket...
- Uberphallus 6y ago
  Nope, they all use Amadeus, except for Scandinavian Airlines. Actually Lufthansa and Air France CREATED Amadeus to consolidate their GDS operations. They're now pissed because Amadeus takes a piece of the cake and plays weird pricing shenanigans, but they're still there. Source: worked at Amadeus.
  - BrandoElFollito 6y ago
    This creation is also visible through the split between France (R&D in South of France) and Germany (datacenters and operations)
- 112012123 6y ago
  These guys do use Amadeus on the backend to manage their ticket inventory. Specifically Amadeus Altea - though you are correct that they try very hard to avoid paying GDS distribution fees for selling tickets through the GDS third party sales channels (which is what that article is discussing).

useful 6y ago

The industry is moving to a being able to purchase products instead of complete PSS/GDS solutions. As an airline you'll be able to buy an inventory management system from Amadeus, a pricing system from Sabre, a support system from TravelSky, and a website from Travelport. The best example I can think of is American. They have Amadeus running their international website. Their ticketing system is internal. And all their inventory is managed in Sabre. Southwest was similar, for a while Amadeus ran their international site while Southwest ran an outdated internal system for domestic travel that didnt support flights leaving and arriving on different days. They eventually had Amadeus move into running their domestic stuff a few years ago and now they have red-eyes. Delta runs all their own stuff on a mainframe and from the outside it looked like a slow moving disaster. I know Amadeus sees all their inventory and looks at each passenger.

dave5104 6y ago
> They eventually had Amadeus move into running their domestic stuff a few years ago and now they have red-eyes. Heh. I remember thinking years back that it was odd that Southwest never had any overnight flights, especially transcontinental. Just assumed it was the way they did business and some sort of cost cutting measure. Didn't think it'd be due to a software limitation!
- redbeard0x0a 6y ago
  > due to a software limitation This _is_ a cost cutting measure. They decided not to pay for their software to support red eyes.
  - jakub_g 6y ago
    In case someone is as confused as me wth the discussion is about (never heard that jargon): > In commercial aviation, a red-eye flight is a flight scheduled to depart at night and arrive the next morning. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-eye_flight https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-eye_flight
- 112012123 6y ago

znpy 6y ago

Is there a way to know if you've gone through sabre?

opportune 6y ago
If you’re an EU resident, I’m guessing you could force their hand using GDPR?
- bitdivision 6y ago
  Looking at their website they have GDPR forms for employees and for clients, but they don't have anything for Joe Public, not sure if this is because they don't 'own' the data themselves?
- Technetium 6y ago
  I'm going to say that's probably a hard no. If you're not cleared then certain documents will just not exist or would come back saying that some information has been redacted for national security reasons. You can see some examples of such requests here if you search hard enough https://www.muckrock.com https://www.muckrock.com

cm2187 6y ago

When you mean travel agent, do you also include the likes of expedia, opodo, etc?

splonk 6y ago
Both of them also have GDS integrations. I don't know exactly how much but I'd assume it's the bulk of their traffic. As a general rule the large majority of anything you don't book directly with the airline/hotel (and for all I know, some of what you do) is very likely to be in a GDS somewhere.
isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
Yes, they are called OTAs - Online Travel Agencies.
mixmastamyk 6y ago
Or Orbitz?

aahhahahaaa 6y ago

They don't use a GDS on the front end, but doesn't all that data feed into a GDS somewhere on the backend? I don't know much about Sabre but I know Amadeus reaches pretty far across everything.

skim_milk 6y ago
Travel agencies still like to use the frontend even though they're even less user friendly than VIM. This isn't the right time for it but once upon a time you could research what travel agencies use what GDS by the job requirements these agencies put out - usually you need like 5 years experience with Sabre/Apollo/whatever for any job here. Once your travel details are in the GDS then the airline clerks, car rental sales person, hotel clerks, and your travel agent can check out or update your travel info for you just based on the PNR number on your airline ticket for convenience if you're just not into that weird smartphone thing. You can change a bunch of things during the trip like what car you drive and hotel amenities during your stay so after the trip ends we download your trip from Sabre and build reports for your boss or whatever.

keithnz 6y ago

I used to work for Sabre, they do a lot more than just bookings, they provide all the software to run an airline basically. I worked in the area for scheduling air crew. But also crossed over into all the flight tracking. Their systems hold a lot of data, though the airlines own and host that data in secure facilities. Fun Facts, when I worked there, you could fly for free on American Airlines ( the company got split out from AA ). They claimed to employ the most PhDs at one time ( lots of operations research). Also claimed to invent database transactions for the problem of people trying to book the same seat on airplanes at the same time (early 60s I believe)

squeaky-clean 6y ago

Also a travel industry programmer. Same feelings about for how much longer, heh. > If you book through the airline's systems or on online reservation systems they likely use the airline's systems to track travel instead of GDS since the GDS wants to take a big cut of every ticket sale. But in my experience, the airline backend and pricing is usually outsourced to Sabre or Amadeus. Frontier and Southwest are the only big players I know of that handle that sort of thing themselves, and Frontier has a teeny-tiny routelist compared to the others.

namdnay 6y ago
Southwest is Amadeus too now :)
tyingq 6y ago
"But in my experience, the airline backend and pricing is usually outsourced to Sabre or Amadeus" True, but that doesn't make the reservations visible in the GDS. If Sabre or Amadeus is running your "CRS (Central Res System)", they aren't allowed to do anything with the data that you haven't asked them to.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

baybal2 6y ago

> I can tell you that Sabre and other GDS's are only used if you go through a travel agent or use some online reservation systems. It doesn't change the fact that a state will get the PNR from the airline.

77pt77 6y ago

Many tickets I've bough in Europe via the airline's website were using amadeus (spanish?).

dagoban 6y ago

not true. BA,LH,LX,OS,AF,KL,... all run on AMA AA runs on Sabre Its actually the other way around, some airlines have their own system, but most use some sort of GDS. i.e. even when you make a booking directly with one of the airlines above mentioned, the entire PNR is still created and used in a GDS. Even when you use Farelogix (for LH NDC bookings for example) the entire PNR also gets created in AMA. When you want to make changes in the LH PNR that FLX does not support yet, you still have to make the changes in the AMA PNR.