15 ms·

Schools Beat Earlier Plagues With Outdoor Classes

117 points by sylvainkalache 6y ago

bravoetch 6y ago
Or online. Cheaper and less frostbite for kids in places with extreme winter conditions.
- klyrs 6y ago
  I have a rambunctious 4yo entering kindergarten this year. He needs direct attention of a present human, not a screen to watch.
  - mmm_grayons 6y ago
    That sounds like he needs childcare, not education. That is the responsibility of his parents.
    - Spivak 6y ago
      I don't think you deserve the downvotes here. The fact that we've conflated daycare with education is something that the pandemic is forcing us to confront. The US is built around the idea that school and childcare are synonymous and there is very little in the way of infrastructure for a parent working full-time to deal with the situation of not having 9-5 supervision for their kids. Public school is pretty much the answer to the problem of what do with families that can't individually afford full-time childcare or afford to have one parent stay home. It's easy to sit in your armchair and say something like "well they shouldn't have kids then" but the problem is that, largely, this system works!
      - klyrs 6y ago
        Kindergarten is meant to ease the transition from daycare to school. Kids who attend kindergarten have better lifelong outcomes than those who skip it. In fact, it's the children who are dumped straight into grade 1 who are in more need of a "daycare" environment, because by and large, they do not have adequate preparation. And two parents working full-time, with a single child, do not have the resources or additional children required to provide a classroom environment. We're both software engineers. We prefer our children to be taught by people who specialize in teaching children. Your parent got downvoted because the comment is a shallow dismissal.
        Spivak 6y ago
        You're right about Kindergarten being a very important part of socialization. I've honestly never really heard of people skipping it outside of kids who were bored and needed actual work to keep them occupied. But my point is that school, at least K-8, for the parent functions both as daycare and education. The pandemic and virtual classrooms is making schools provide the education but not the daycare and we're seeing how unprepared the US is to lose this service for a while. Parents still have to go to work but also can't just leave their kids at home alone, and having someone stay with them 9-5 to keep them focused on school is more expensive than a lot of families can afford.
        mmm_grayons 6y ago
        > the comment is a shallow dismissal No, it's not. > two parents working full-time, with a single child, do not have the resources or additional children required to provide a classroom environment You said your children need childcare as much as education. If you don't have the resources to provide what you believe your children need, perhaps you shouldn't have had children. If you want both parents to work full time, there's certainly an expectation that the children will need care. Why did you assume the state (read: your fellow taxpayers) would or should subsidize that? You are reaping the benefits of having children without bearing all the responsibilities. This situation is simply revealing the negative externalities many parents force on their neighbors.
        Spivak 6y ago
        I'm a little confused on your point. We've had the situation where primary school serves a purpose of providing education, socialization, and giving kids somewhere to go where they'll be supervised for the workday. When you're figuring out how the finances for raising a kid are going to work out it would be kinda weird assume that this core institution that you pay property taxes for and in a lot of cases likely moved for would suddenly go away and that you'd have to figure out how to afford the full-time salary of an in-home caretaker or how to live without an income (but that doesn't really work out for single parents). This really isn't a question of bearing the responsibilities or whatever. Even if you send your kids to private school you're still in the same boat. This new disease-laden world is wildly inefficient because you can't benefit from having having a 30+ to 1 child/adult ratio and parents are just kinda stuck.
  - tomjen3 6y ago
    I am sure a Border Collie could deal with him no issue and I don't think dogs can get Covid-19.
    - deckiedan 6y ago
      Many of us live in rental accomodation that have no-pets rules.
      - mmm_grayons 6y ago
        Good point, but many people are making changes due to a radically different lifestyle. Moving to new places to find work, moving out of cities for more space and lower rent/cheaper house. It's not reasonable to expect you get through this without making lifestyle changes.
    - goodcanadian 6y ago
      From https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/animals.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/... We know that cats, dogs, and a few other types of animals can be infected with SARS-CoV-2
    - klyrs 6y ago
      The purpose of kindergarten is to prepare children for a classroom environment, including interpersonal skills. If you think a border collie is capable of that, I've got a talking horse to sell you.
- topkai22 6y ago
  The limited data I've seen is that online learning wasn't effective compared to in person classes. Now admittedly that was an natural experiment conducted in the worst way possible, but it certainly matches my experience that young kids thrive most with at least some in person learning. Utilizing outdoor space is a good idea until late fall in the northern US, and possible due most of the school year in places with moderate climate.
pengaru 6y ago
Wouldn't earlier plagues been in times of ubiquitous stay at home mothers as well? Surely a good chunk of kids just got home schooled.
- topkai22 6y ago
  Possibly, but my great great grandparents were school aged in New York in the late 1800s. There were 10+ kids and 2 adults in the family. Mom might have been at home, but she was busy.
  - sukilot 6y ago
    The kids can teach each other, as was done in small "one room" schools of the past.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  >>Surely a good chunk of kids just got home schooled. This was before widespread laundry machines and dishwashers. Those "stay at home mothers" worked. School was, and still is, in part a babysitting service. If the kids were to stay at home they would have been helping mom, not asking her for reading lessons. This was also a time of increasing literacy and education overall. Illiteracy was not uncommon. There is a good chance that many parents were simply not as well educated as their school-age children. Homeschooling is all well and good, unless mom cannot read.
  - sukilot 6y ago
    Then how did moms get by when kids were in school not helping? I'm sure some parents or school studenta were illiterate, but not the majority. And families were larger, so they'd have multiple children to teach each other.
    - ivanbakel 6y ago
      >Then how did moms get by when kids were in school not helping? They got by better because children were in school. If you don't have to keep an eye on your kids, you can commit 100% to all the housework and get it done that much sooner. They were productive with or without the children around. The point is that there was no productivity to spare for mother and child to do any teaching/learning.
mmm_grayons 6y ago
So students should be expected to operate in hundred-degree heat? It's well-know heat harms focus and productivity. This is fine for kids in new york who can just bundle up against the cold, but one can only do so much against heat in places like Texas where temps can top 110.
- topkai22 6y ago
  Come on, this obviously depends on where you are- the article is a New York city newspaper talking about new york and the northeast. You can't do outdoor classes in Texas in August, but by late September or October it becomes totally feasible.
  - matthewowen 6y ago
    To add to this: the article was published in the "metropolitan" section this weekend. It's very much intended to be local.
- AuryGlenz 6y ago
  No amount of bundling will work for Minnesota winters. About once a year school gets cancelled state wide due to it being too cold for kids to even wait for a bus.
not_a_moth 6y ago
Can one seriously compare COVID-19 to a TB plague? Especially in context of schools where mortality rate for the school aged appears to be less than any seasonal flu on record.
- jedberg 6y ago
  > Especially in context of schools where mortality rate for the school aged appears to be less than any seasonal flu on record. There is no good data to back that up. Since we've been keep track, most kids have been staying home, away from other kids. Schools have been closed, playgrounds have been closed, and so on. There is a good chance it doesn't affect them as much, but it's not entirely clear since they haven't been socializing as much as adults. The data we do have says that COVID-19 is 3 times deadlier than the flu for kids 5-17, and 190 times deadlier for kids 0-4, but that's because the numbers are small: https://i.insider.com/5ef234caf34d051bc821d0d8?width=700&format=jpeg&auto=webp https://i.insider.com/5ef234caf34d051bc821d0d8?width=700&for... Also, lots of adults work in schools. 1/3 of teachers in the US are over 50.
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago
    All kids live with adults, and they get high exposure to the virus when their family gets infected. From this we know that kids have a low mortality rate.
    - gHosts 6y ago
      Conversely, their parents and grand parents get infected by the little plague carriers returning from the plague pit and general viral exchange facility that is school. And the grand parents and obese parents are vulnerable as all merry hell.
      - tomohawk 6y ago
        Nope. In Iceland, they did extensive testing, and genetic tracing of infections. Children infecting other children was extremely rare. In almost all cases, it was adults infecting them. There was only a SINGLE case of a child infecting an adult. https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/blog/hunting-down-covid-19/ https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/blog/hunting-down-covi...
CivBase 6y ago
Unfortunately, I doubt any schools in my neck of the woods could seriously consider that. North-midwestern winters are very uncomfortable.
- wallacoloo 6y ago
  In my neck of the woods, it’s not too uncommon to find year-round outdoor seating at restaurants thanks to radiative heaters. Mind you, I’ve never tried one of these when it’s colder than maybe 45 F. But do you think something like that is feasible?
  - wyldfire 6y ago
    Northern midwest US - up until January, probably. I don't think they'd be terribly effective in late January or most of February.
  - KMag 6y ago
    Having grown up in Minnesota, come late January and early February, on the days when the high temperatures are under 0F/-18 C, putting a child out there for 8 hours under a radiant heater, I think you might actually melt hats/coat hoods before you fully prevent frostbitten toes. Even if you can keep the whole kid at reasonable temperatures, I think it would just be very distracting. Also, for that power/propane bill, you're probably better off with either per-desk transparent positive-pressure medical isolation tents or full-face snorkel masks fitted with 3D printed adapters to ceramic-element anesthesia machine air filters. In addition, kids play. Some small percentage of those kids are going to get burned by heaters.
  - kayodelycaon 6y ago
    Grew up in Wisconsin, this wouldn't work at all. I've been around a roaring bonfire in winter. There's a massive temperature difference a few feet in any direction. It's far too easy to overheat or freeze if you aren't paying attention. Any amount of wind makes this more complicated. Radiative heating outside, in winter only works if you have some kind of shelter to reflect and contain the heat. Even then you have to be mindful of your environment.
paganel 6y ago
Also, the fact that many schools in the US have classes with no windows should be made illegal, when I first heard about that I thought it was a joke (until I saw some photos). The communists did a lot of things wrong in my country when they came to power after WW2 but one of the things that they did do right was to build lots and lots of new schools, and every one of the classes in those schools had big windows by mandated design, not just as an afterthought.
- doukdouk 6y ago
  Do you have any of those photos? I find it hard to believe.
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    I am surprised about your comment. What do you find hard to believe? I am from (western) Germany, and I find it hard to believe, that there are class rooms without windows. Except for one or two special purpose rooms, in my school time, I have never ever seen a class room, which didn't have windows on one long side. The other long side would be towards the hallway. The rooms almost never needed artificial lighting (unless in the first hour in the Winter or really bad weather) and plenty of fresh air when opening the window. Daylight and fresh air are the best ways to keep the pupils awake.
    - doukdouk 6y ago
      It 's "not having windows in the US" part that is surprising, not the "having windows in Germany".
      - bobbean 6y ago
        I live in the US, I don't think my highschool had windows in any of its classrooms. They're may have been one or two that I don't remember, but the majority only had a "window" in the door that was a small rectangle, about 6 inches wide and 2 feet tall. Some didn't even have that, or the teacher had it covered with poster board.
abalashov 6y ago
That's a troubling thought down here in eastern Georgia, where it has been in the high 90F (35-37C) range for the past few weeks, with heat index north of 100F (38-40C), and no shortage of humidity. And that's not even remotely as bad as it gets closer to the Gulf coast. And it stays pretty unbearable until late October or so. Yes, I know the article wasn't insinuating that the entire country, regardless of climactic region, should hold outdoor classes. But enough of the US sits below "unbearable" latitudes enough of the year that I don't think this suggestion has much applicability beyond what is explicitly considered "the north". Besides, I've been to New York City in August and September before; depending on the day, the heat, and especially the humidity, can give the South a run for its money.
- SamReidHughes 6y ago
  They had schools before air conditioning. All we had when I was a kid were big oscillating fans on the wall, and that was the 1990’s. I think Georgia will have it easy, because winter will be the real impediment.
  - badRNG 6y ago
    While I'm sure the kids could survive if given shade and water, I'd have to imagine completing assignments on a school-issued Chromebook or iPad at home where it is climate controlled is a far better learning environment than in triple digit heat index temps or the cold winter in northern states. Sure, there will be certain places and times where this might work, but probably not Georgia in the summer.
    - Frost1x 6y ago
      A reasonable portion of my K-12 education lacked AC. It's pretty difficult to focus on materials and learning when you're sweating or nearly sweating and about to fall asleep to help reduce your core body temperature. It's not very conducive for learning. Take some cognitively demanding task you have to do or struggle with and then try doing it in sweltering heat. At least for me, my patience recedes very quickly and I'm far more concerned with my immediate discomfort than I am dancing through some abstract ideas, making it very difficult to focus.
simonjgreen 6y ago
This is precisely what my children's school is doing right now, and consequently they've had much greater adoption from parents of sending their children back to school. 75% vs the county average of 33%.
tomohawk 6y ago
It is unhelpful to only look at risks due to covid without looking at those risks in comparison to others. Optimizing for least covid problems may cause death or morbidity due to other things to actually cause more damage. Hospitalization rates in the US for covid is: 0% for 10 and under .1% for 10 - 20 In the US, the number of deaths for covid is: 20 (total!) for 0 - 14 125 (total!) for 15 - 24 By comparison, suicide caused 514 deaths for 10-14 year olds, and 6500 deaths for 15-24 year olds in 2017. https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml By comparison, the CDC estimates that around 600 children died of the flu in 2017/2018. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/children.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/children.htm
- macintux 6y ago
  That rather disregards the adults who will be required to be in close proximity to all of these children during the day, and the adults who will be caring for these children when they’re home.
2038AD 6y ago
I've got a feeling that children are more likely to pay attention outside
imgabe 6y ago
When I was a senior in high school I made a point of asking our English teacher every day if we could go outside. Rain, shine, snow, whatever. It became a running joke. Finally, towards the end of the year, on a lovely Spring day, she agreed we could go outside. But there was a catch: we had a pop quiz. 20% of the grade was some question about a book we read. The other 80% was to write a short essay: Explain the educational benefits of going outside.
NicoJuicy 6y ago
That's a great idea ( in some areas) actually
ElCaudillo 6y ago
Kids are not little plague carriers you piece of shit. Doomers like you should be thrown in mass graves.
rossdavidh 6y ago
Speaking as someone who: 1) lives in a Sun Belt state (Texas) 2) went to grade school in an un-airconditioned building Yes, it could be done, and should be considered. However, school years used to start at Labor Day, for this reason, and there were a lot of serious metal-bladed fans to make it bearable. Even outside, you would need shade (perhaps canopies?) and fans. It was also a lower population density than modern urban schools. All that body heat makes a difference. However, definitely worth considering, and in many non-urban areas I believe it could work.
- Frost1x 6y ago
  >Even outside, you would need shade (perhaps canopies?) and fans. I imagine fans may be problematic due to the way COVID19 primarily spreads. You might be able to design your way out of it with clever fan and student placement but without that, you might create highways for the virus to spread from one student to the next.
  - AstralStorm 6y ago
    Well, a ceiling fan producing laminar flow is very likely to limit the spread. Side fans and windows, unlikely. The have been a few good studies of airflow dynamics. Ultimately the best cheapest defense building wise would be airflow over 12 CFM in a top to bottom way. This is essentially an air curtain strength. That's rather expensive and takes a lot of big fans or very strong HVAC system with many air outlets. Being outside only works as long as you can spread people out heavily enough. It's better than unventilated buildings, but the benefit is overshadowed by density or distance. (See: Florida beach policy and cases after the delay.)
    - rossdavidh 6y ago
      Having worked in semiconductor fabs with laminar flow, I can say that it dries your eyes out if you're not wearing goggles.
  - megameter 6y ago
    The spread can be bisected into two parts: 1. Droplets directly exhaled. This is the stuff that you mask for. 2. Particles suspended in air. This is why staying indoors is particularly dangerous; it tends to hang around and build up without being vented. The virus dies quickly outside of droplets and in direct sunlight: this is why being outside is low risk given masks and distancing. Either it's coughed on you, or it dies within minutes. An indoors area that circulates its air quickly is almost as good, provided UV is part of the process. Fans are mostly a good idea in this respect and one could imagine an indoors "UV gate" through which air is pushed to disinfect it. I would not be surprised if the idea already exists.
viburnum 6y ago
Anything to avoid actually eradicating the virus, as many other countries have done now.
bpyne 6y ago
Some good ideas exist in this article. I could see this strategy implemented in my district as one of several starting in the Fall. But it's not going to be easy. I'm in New England. The sheer number of students and the percentage of them who have inadequate Winter clothing and food would make the strategy impossible to implement as a one size fits all approach. A quick search shows that my school district has 10,479 students. The number of students on free or reduced price lunch is a good indicator of access to adequate Winter clothing as well. We have 44% of the students on free or reduced price lunch. To implement a strategy of windows open or outdoor classrooms, we would have to account for 4,610 students' Winter clothing needs for temperatures ranging from 0F-55F. Some communities have much higher percentages of students on free and reduced price lunch. A quick look at a neighbor city 15 minutes' drive to the north shows 95% on free or reduced price lunch. Districts less affected by poverty could probably implement an outdoor or windows open strategy. But a mountain of logistics exist in trying to implement in communities like mine. Unfortunately, in our county, communities like mine are the norm.
getpost 6y ago
Traffic noise is a problem for many schools in urban areas — another reason you don’t want to open windows or teach outside. Moreover, some schools have only small 100% paved outdoor areas. Example: Ánimo Westside Charter Middle School (funded by Gates Foundation) https://goo.gl/maps/Wn2bu5kkh97Ygqt88 https://goo.gl/maps/Wn2bu5kkh97Ygqt88 Nearby public elementary school adjacent to nature area, with ample unpaved space, somewhat less noisy, bit still problematic. Playa Vista Elementary https://goo.gl/maps/tydUVn1X9ppB7p699 https://goo.gl/maps/tydUVn1X9ppB7p699 (Not complaining about charter schools, but this is an interesting juxtaposition, unrelated to the main point of this topic.)
sylvainkalache 6y ago
Obviously, easier said than done, especially for urban communities. But I bet students could have better learning outcome, considering that indoor space are often poorly ventilated and have an excess of CO2 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/06/health/conference-room-air.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/06/health/conference-room-ai...
mullen 6y ago
This is just a Red Herring. The solution is not outdoor classes, redesigned schools or open windows but good governance. American's have convinced themselves that electing smart people who are skilled at government is a bad thing and that electing populist morons who will say anything to get elected is the path we should be taking. Had Hillary Clinton been elected, Americans would not be in this situation and we would not be taking about these pointless side issues. The US would have dealt with this pandemic issue months ago and not talking about these Red Herring pointless topics. Just a distraction and chasing miracle cures that don't exist.
dpeck 6y ago
large pavilions with picnic tables, lighting, and fans works well and we should be building them all over our communities. They're cheap to build, keep everyone dry, shaded, and reasonably cool. It's obviously not as good as air conditioning, but I've worked under them when on a camp staff in central Georgia during some extremely hot summers in the '90s (and the 90s/100s F) and it is tolerable for most people. Brief research tells me the construction cost is generally under $25k which is a blip in most education budgets. As a bonus we have more outdoor community space when we manage to get past this.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dpeck 6y ago
  added and out of the edit time: Even if these were only around existing school property and different classes used just morning or evening the kids could still get some instruction, the parents could have a brief break, and get food (and God forbid some other help for the kids at risk) for the children who need it. We'd be in a much better place than we are now thinking that young elementary kids can do virtual learning. This would go a long way with getting us through most/all autumn in much of the US.

Or online. Cheaper and less frostbite for kids in places with extreme winter conditions.

klyrs 6y ago
I have a rambunctious 4yo entering kindergarten this year. He needs direct attention of a present human, not a screen to watch.
- mmm_grayons 6y ago
  That sounds like he needs childcare, not education. That is the responsibility of his parents.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    I don't think you deserve the downvotes here. The fact that we've conflated daycare with education is something that the pandemic is forcing us to confront. The US is built around the idea that school and childcare are synonymous and there is very little in the way of infrastructure for a parent working full-time to deal with the situation of not having 9-5 supervision for their kids. Public school is pretty much the answer to the problem of what do with families that can't individually afford full-time childcare or afford to have one parent stay home. It's easy to sit in your armchair and say something like "well they shouldn't have kids then" but the problem is that, largely, this system works!
    - klyrs 6y ago
      Kindergarten is meant to ease the transition from daycare to school. Kids who attend kindergarten have better lifelong outcomes than those who skip it. In fact, it's the children who are dumped straight into grade 1 who are in more need of a "daycare" environment, because by and large, they do not have adequate preparation. And two parents working full-time, with a single child, do not have the resources or additional children required to provide a classroom environment. We're both software engineers. We prefer our children to be taught by people who specialize in teaching children. Your parent got downvoted because the comment is a shallow dismissal.
      - Spivak 6y ago
        You're right about Kindergarten being a very important part of socialization. I've honestly never really heard of people skipping it outside of kids who were bored and needed actual work to keep them occupied. But my point is that school, at least K-8, for the parent functions both as daycare and education. The pandemic and virtual classrooms is making schools provide the education but not the daycare and we're seeing how unprepared the US is to lose this service for a while. Parents still have to go to work but also can't just leave their kids at home alone, and having someone stay with them 9-5 to keep them focused on school is more expensive than a lot of families can afford.
      - mmm_grayons 6y ago
        > the comment is a shallow dismissal No, it's not. > two parents working full-time, with a single child, do not have the resources or additional children required to provide a classroom environment You said your children need childcare as much as education. If you don't have the resources to provide what you believe your children need, perhaps you shouldn't have had children. If you want both parents to work full time, there's certainly an expectation that the children will need care. Why did you assume the state (read: your fellow taxpayers) would or should subsidize that? You are reaping the benefits of having children without bearing all the responsibilities. This situation is simply revealing the negative externalities many parents force on their neighbors.
        Spivak 6y ago
        I'm a little confused on your point. We've had the situation where primary school serves a purpose of providing education, socialization, and giving kids somewhere to go where they'll be supervised for the workday. When you're figuring out how the finances for raising a kid are going to work out it would be kinda weird assume that this core institution that you pay property taxes for and in a lot of cases likely moved for would suddenly go away and that you'd have to figure out how to afford the full-time salary of an in-home caretaker or how to live without an income (but that doesn't really work out for single parents). This really isn't a question of bearing the responsibilities or whatever. Even if you send your kids to private school you're still in the same boat. This new disease-laden world is wildly inefficient because you can't benefit from having having a 30+ to 1 child/adult ratio and parents are just kinda stuck.
- tomjen3 6y ago
  I am sure a Border Collie could deal with him no issue and I don't think dogs can get Covid-19.
  - deckiedan 6y ago
    Many of us live in rental accomodation that have no-pets rules.
    - mmm_grayons 6y ago
      Good point, but many people are making changes due to a radically different lifestyle. Moving to new places to find work, moving out of cities for more space and lower rent/cheaper house. It's not reasonable to expect you get through this without making lifestyle changes.
  - goodcanadian 6y ago
    From https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/animals.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/... We know that cats, dogs, and a few other types of animals can be infected with SARS-CoV-2
  - klyrs 6y ago
    The purpose of kindergarten is to prepare children for a classroom environment, including interpersonal skills. If you think a border collie is capable of that, I've got a talking horse to sell you.
topkai22 6y ago
The limited data I've seen is that online learning wasn't effective compared to in person classes. Now admittedly that was an natural experiment conducted in the worst way possible, but it certainly matches my experience that young kids thrive most with at least some in person learning. Utilizing outdoor space is a good idea until late fall in the northern US, and possible due most of the school year in places with moderate climate.

Wouldn't earlier plagues been in times of ubiquitous stay at home mothers as well? Surely a good chunk of kids just got home schooled.

topkai22 6y ago
Possibly, but my great great grandparents were school aged in New York in the late 1800s. There were 10+ kids and 2 adults in the family. Mom might have been at home, but she was busy.
- sukilot 6y ago
  The kids can teach each other, as was done in small "one room" schools of the past.
sandworm101 6y ago
>>Surely a good chunk of kids just got home schooled. This was before widespread laundry machines and dishwashers. Those "stay at home mothers" worked. School was, and still is, in part a babysitting service. If the kids were to stay at home they would have been helping mom, not asking her for reading lessons. This was also a time of increasing literacy and education overall. Illiteracy was not uncommon. There is a good chance that many parents were simply not as well educated as their school-age children. Homeschooling is all well and good, unless mom cannot read.
- sukilot 6y ago
  Then how did moms get by when kids were in school not helping? I'm sure some parents or school studenta were illiterate, but not the majority. And families were larger, so they'd have multiple children to teach each other.
  - ivanbakel 6y ago
    >Then how did moms get by when kids were in school not helping? They got by better because children were in school. If you don't have to keep an eye on your kids, you can commit 100% to all the housework and get it done that much sooner. They were productive with or without the children around. The point is that there was no productivity to spare for mother and child to do any teaching/learning.

mmm_grayons 6y ago

So students should be expected to operate in hundred-degree heat? It's well-know heat harms focus and productivity. This is fine for kids in new york who can just bundle up against the cold, but one can only do so much against heat in places like Texas where temps can top 110.

topkai22 6y ago
Come on, this obviously depends on where you are- the article is a New York city newspaper talking about new york and the northeast. You can't do outdoor classes in Texas in August, but by late September or October it becomes totally feasible.
- matthewowen 6y ago
  To add to this: the article was published in the "metropolitan" section this weekend. It's very much intended to be local.
AuryGlenz 6y ago
No amount of bundling will work for Minnesota winters. About once a year school gets cancelled state wide due to it being too cold for kids to even wait for a bus.

not_a_moth 6y ago

Can one seriously compare COVID-19 to a TB plague? Especially in context of schools where mortality rate for the school aged appears to be less than any seasonal flu on record.

jedberg 6y ago
> Especially in context of schools where mortality rate for the school aged appears to be less than any seasonal flu on record. There is no good data to back that up. Since we've been keep track, most kids have been staying home, away from other kids. Schools have been closed, playgrounds have been closed, and so on. There is a good chance it doesn't affect them as much, but it's not entirely clear since they haven't been socializing as much as adults. The data we do have says that COVID-19 is 3 times deadlier than the flu for kids 5-17, and 190 times deadlier for kids 0-4, but that's because the numbers are small: https://i.insider.com/5ef234caf34d051bc821d0d8?width=700&format=jpeg&auto=webp https://i.insider.com/5ef234caf34d051bc821d0d8?width=700&for... Also, lots of adults work in schools. 1/3 of teachers in the US are over 50.
- SamReidHughes 6y ago
  All kids live with adults, and they get high exposure to the virus when their family gets infected. From this we know that kids have a low mortality rate.
  - gHosts 6y ago
    Conversely, their parents and grand parents get infected by the little plague carriers returning from the plague pit and general viral exchange facility that is school. And the grand parents and obese parents are vulnerable as all merry hell.
    - tomohawk 6y ago
      Nope. In Iceland, they did extensive testing, and genetic tracing of infections. Children infecting other children was extremely rare. In almost all cases, it was adults infecting them. There was only a SINGLE case of a child infecting an adult. https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/blog/hunting-down-covid-19/ https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/blog/hunting-down-covi...

CivBase 6y ago

Unfortunately, I doubt any schools in my neck of the woods could seriously consider that. North-midwestern winters are very uncomfortable.

wallacoloo 6y ago
In my neck of the woods, it’s not too uncommon to find year-round outdoor seating at restaurants thanks to radiative heaters. Mind you, I’ve never tried one of these when it’s colder than maybe 45 F. But do you think something like that is feasible?
- wyldfire 6y ago
  Northern midwest US - up until January, probably. I don't think they'd be terribly effective in late January or most of February.
- KMag 6y ago
  Having grown up in Minnesota, come late January and early February, on the days when the high temperatures are under 0F/-18 C, putting a child out there for 8 hours under a radiant heater, I think you might actually melt hats/coat hoods before you fully prevent frostbitten toes. Even if you can keep the whole kid at reasonable temperatures, I think it would just be very distracting. Also, for that power/propane bill, you're probably better off with either per-desk transparent positive-pressure medical isolation tents or full-face snorkel masks fitted with 3D printed adapters to ceramic-element anesthesia machine air filters. In addition, kids play. Some small percentage of those kids are going to get burned by heaters.
- kayodelycaon 6y ago
  Grew up in Wisconsin, this wouldn't work at all. I've been around a roaring bonfire in winter. There's a massive temperature difference a few feet in any direction. It's far too easy to overheat or freeze if you aren't paying attention. Any amount of wind makes this more complicated. Radiative heating outside, in winter only works if you have some kind of shelter to reflect and contain the heat. Even then you have to be mindful of your environment.

paganel 6y ago

Also, the fact that many schools in the US have classes with no windows should be made illegal, when I first heard about that I thought it was a joke (until I saw some photos). The communists did a lot of things wrong in my country when they came to power after WW2 but one of the things that they did do right was to build lots and lots of new schools, and every one of the classes in those schools had big windows by mandated design, not just as an afterthought.

doukdouk 6y ago
Do you have any of those photos? I find it hard to believe.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  I am surprised about your comment. What do you find hard to believe? I am from (western) Germany, and I find it hard to believe, that there are class rooms without windows. Except for one or two special purpose rooms, in my school time, I have never ever seen a class room, which didn't have windows on one long side. The other long side would be towards the hallway. The rooms almost never needed artificial lighting (unless in the first hour in the Winter or really bad weather) and plenty of fresh air when opening the window. Daylight and fresh air are the best ways to keep the pupils awake.
  - doukdouk 6y ago
    It 's "not having windows in the US" part that is surprising, not the "having windows in Germany".
    - bobbean 6y ago
      I live in the US, I don't think my highschool had windows in any of its classrooms. They're may have been one or two that I don't remember, but the majority only had a "window" in the door that was a small rectangle, about 6 inches wide and 2 feet tall. Some didn't even have that, or the teacher had it covered with poster board.

abalashov 6y ago

That's a troubling thought down here in eastern Georgia, where it has been in the high 90F (35-37C) range for the past few weeks, with heat index north of 100F (38-40C), and no shortage of humidity. And that's not even remotely as bad as it gets closer to the Gulf coast. And it stays pretty unbearable until late October or so. Yes, I know the article wasn't insinuating that the entire country, regardless of climactic region, should hold outdoor classes. But enough of the US sits below "unbearable" latitudes enough of the year that I don't think this suggestion has much applicability beyond what is explicitly considered "the north". Besides, I've been to New York City in August and September before; depending on the day, the heat, and especially the humidity, can give the South a run for its money.

SamReidHughes 6y ago
They had schools before air conditioning. All we had when I was a kid were big oscillating fans on the wall, and that was the 1990’s. I think Georgia will have it easy, because winter will be the real impediment.
- badRNG 6y ago
  While I'm sure the kids could survive if given shade and water, I'd have to imagine completing assignments on a school-issued Chromebook or iPad at home where it is climate controlled is a far better learning environment than in triple digit heat index temps or the cold winter in northern states. Sure, there will be certain places and times where this might work, but probably not Georgia in the summer.
  - Frost1x 6y ago
    A reasonable portion of my K-12 education lacked AC. It's pretty difficult to focus on materials and learning when you're sweating or nearly sweating and about to fall asleep to help reduce your core body temperature. It's not very conducive for learning. Take some cognitively demanding task you have to do or struggle with and then try doing it in sweltering heat. At least for me, my patience recedes very quickly and I'm far more concerned with my immediate discomfort than I am dancing through some abstract ideas, making it very difficult to focus.

simonjgreen 6y ago

This is precisely what my children's school is doing right now, and consequently they've had much greater adoption from parents of sending their children back to school. 75% vs the county average of 33%.

tomohawk 6y ago

It is unhelpful to only look at risks due to covid without looking at those risks in comparison to others. Optimizing for least covid problems may cause death or morbidity due to other things to actually cause more damage. Hospitalization rates in the US for covid is: 0% for 10 and under .1% for 10 - 20 In the US, the number of deaths for covid is: 20 (total!) for 0 - 14 125 (total!) for 15 - 24 By comparison, suicide caused 514 deaths for 10-14 year olds, and 6500 deaths for 15-24 year olds in 2017. https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml By comparison, the CDC estimates that around 600 children died of the flu in 2017/2018. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/children.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/children.htm

macintux 6y ago
That rather disregards the adults who will be required to be in close proximity to all of these children during the day, and the adults who will be caring for these children when they’re home.

2038AD 6y ago

I've got a feeling that children are more likely to pay attention outside

imgabe 6y ago

When I was a senior in high school I made a point of asking our English teacher every day if we could go outside. Rain, shine, snow, whatever. It became a running joke. Finally, towards the end of the year, on a lovely Spring day, she agreed we could go outside. But there was a catch: we had a pop quiz. 20% of the grade was some question about a book we read. The other 80% was to write a short essay: Explain the educational benefits of going outside.

NicoJuicy 6y ago

That's a great idea ( in some areas) actually

ElCaudillo 6y ago

Kids are not little plague carriers you piece of shit. Doomers like you should be thrown in mass graves.

rossdavidh 6y ago

Speaking as someone who: 1) lives in a Sun Belt state (Texas) 2) went to grade school in an un-airconditioned building Yes, it could be done, and should be considered. However, school years used to start at Labor Day, for this reason, and there were a lot of serious metal-bladed fans to make it bearable. Even outside, you would need shade (perhaps canopies?) and fans. It was also a lower population density than modern urban schools. All that body heat makes a difference. However, definitely worth considering, and in many non-urban areas I believe it could work.

Frost1x 6y ago
>Even outside, you would need shade (perhaps canopies?) and fans. I imagine fans may be problematic due to the way COVID19 primarily spreads. You might be able to design your way out of it with clever fan and student placement but without that, you might create highways for the virus to spread from one student to the next.
- AstralStorm 6y ago
  Well, a ceiling fan producing laminar flow is very likely to limit the spread. Side fans and windows, unlikely. The have been a few good studies of airflow dynamics. Ultimately the best cheapest defense building wise would be airflow over 12 CFM in a top to bottom way. This is essentially an air curtain strength. That's rather expensive and takes a lot of big fans or very strong HVAC system with many air outlets. Being outside only works as long as you can spread people out heavily enough. It's better than unventilated buildings, but the benefit is overshadowed by density or distance. (See: Florida beach policy and cases after the delay.)
  - rossdavidh 6y ago
    Having worked in semiconductor fabs with laminar flow, I can say that it dries your eyes out if you're not wearing goggles.
- megameter 6y ago
  The spread can be bisected into two parts: 1. Droplets directly exhaled. This is the stuff that you mask for. 2. Particles suspended in air. This is why staying indoors is particularly dangerous; it tends to hang around and build up without being vented. The virus dies quickly outside of droplets and in direct sunlight: this is why being outside is low risk given masks and distancing. Either it's coughed on you, or it dies within minutes. An indoors area that circulates its air quickly is almost as good, provided UV is part of the process. Fans are mostly a good idea in this respect and one could imagine an indoors "UV gate" through which air is pushed to disinfect it. I would not be surprised if the idea already exists.

viburnum 6y ago

Anything to avoid actually eradicating the virus, as many other countries have done now.

bpyne 6y ago

Some good ideas exist in this article. I could see this strategy implemented in my district as one of several starting in the Fall. But it's not going to be easy. I'm in New England. The sheer number of students and the percentage of them who have inadequate Winter clothing and food would make the strategy impossible to implement as a one size fits all approach. A quick search shows that my school district has 10,479 students. The number of students on free or reduced price lunch is a good indicator of access to adequate Winter clothing as well. We have 44% of the students on free or reduced price lunch. To implement a strategy of windows open or outdoor classrooms, we would have to account for 4,610 students' Winter clothing needs for temperatures ranging from 0F-55F. Some communities have much higher percentages of students on free and reduced price lunch. A quick look at a neighbor city 15 minutes' drive to the north shows 95% on free or reduced price lunch. Districts less affected by poverty could probably implement an outdoor or windows open strategy. But a mountain of logistics exist in trying to implement in communities like mine. Unfortunately, in our county, communities like mine are the norm.

getpost 6y ago

Traffic noise is a problem for many schools in urban areas — another reason you don’t want to open windows or teach outside. Moreover, some schools have only small 100% paved outdoor areas. Example: Ánimo Westside Charter Middle School (funded by Gates Foundation) https://goo.gl/maps/Wn2bu5kkh97Ygqt88 https://goo.gl/maps/Wn2bu5kkh97Ygqt88 Nearby public elementary school adjacent to nature area, with ample unpaved space, somewhat less noisy, bit still problematic. Playa Vista Elementary https://goo.gl/maps/tydUVn1X9ppB7p699 https://goo.gl/maps/tydUVn1X9ppB7p699 (Not complaining about charter schools, but this is an interesting juxtaposition, unrelated to the main point of this topic.)

sylvainkalache 6y ago

Obviously, easier said than done, especially for urban communities. But I bet students could have better learning outcome, considering that indoor space are often poorly ventilated and have an excess of CO2 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/06/health/conference-room-air.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/06/health/conference-room-ai...

mullen 6y ago

This is just a Red Herring. The solution is not outdoor classes, redesigned schools or open windows but good governance. American's have convinced themselves that electing smart people who are skilled at government is a bad thing and that electing populist morons who will say anything to get elected is the path we should be taking. Had Hillary Clinton been elected, Americans would not be in this situation and we would not be taking about these pointless side issues. The US would have dealt with this pandemic issue months ago and not talking about these Red Herring pointless topics. Just a distraction and chasing miracle cures that don't exist.

dpeck 6y ago

large pavilions with picnic tables, lighting, and fans works well and we should be building them all over our communities. They're cheap to build, keep everyone dry, shaded, and reasonably cool. It's obviously not as good as air conditioning, but I've worked under them when on a camp staff in central Georgia during some extremely hot summers in the '90s (and the 90s/100s F) and it is tolerable for most people. Brief research tells me the construction cost is generally under $25k which is a blip in most education budgets. As a bonus we have more outdoor community space when we manage to get past this.

deleted 6y ago
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dpeck 6y ago
added and out of the edit time: Even if these were only around existing school property and different classes used just morning or evening the kids could still get some instruction, the parents could have a brief break, and get food (and God forbid some other help for the kids at risk) for the children who need it. We'd be in a much better place than we are now thinking that young elementary kids can do virtual learning. This would go a long way with getting us through most/all autumn in much of the US.