6 ms·

My theory about handwritten note-taking is that the bandwidth difference between thinking (fast) and writing (slow) is somehow extremely beneficial to the proce

My theory about handwritten note-taking is that the bandwidth difference between thinking (fast) and writing (slow) is somehow extremely beneficial to the process of generating creative and evocative output. There have been so many journaling sessions which I started with the absolute conviction that I had nothing new to say, and after 4 pages of extremely creative and detailed ideas, surprising even to me, I had no choice but to exclaim, "Now where did that even come from?!". Maybe the hypnotic act of twirling the pen on paper slowly puts the mind into that sub-conscious creative state similar to what happens when one is about to fall asleep? It is honestly magical. I now use OneNote every day (because I can search through a large volume of notes easily), and I quite miss the dramatic revelations of pen on paper journaling. My notes were about programming and trading. For those who write fiction, I bet slow, old, typewriters are similarly more beneficial than the latest ergonomic keyboard and Word 365!

sooheon 6y ago
Ted Chiang's "The Truth of Fact, the Truth of Fiction" is one of the best treatments I've read on this topic. https://web.archive.org/web/20140222103103/http://subterraneanpress.com/magazine/fall_2013/the_truth_of_fact_the_truth_of_feeling_by_ted_chiang https://web.archive.org/web/20140222103103/http://subterrane...
laudable-logic 6y ago
Have you tried using OneNote's handwriting recognition feature? I am curious if that experience would allow for the regaining of the pen-to-paper "magic". Edit: typo
- corty 6y ago
  I have, and it doesn't work. The recognition is good enough for a demo, in the store you will be really impressed how well it works. However, when really taking notes on the go you use your own abbreviations it doesn't know, use slang or scientific/technical language. Thats where it breaks down and degrades into the usual "I hate you, autocorrect" spiel. Also, OneNote does it's recognition and replaces your handwritten text by printed text of a different size. This makes all kinds of diagrams, side-by-side-text, tables, etc impossible. I have gone back to a paper notebook.
  - ygra 6y ago
    You don't have to replace your handwritten text. It's searchable even as ink. Can't say I've ever used the ink to text feature.
- vijucat 6y ago
  I used it way back (5+ years ago), and it was too cumbersome to train the recognition engine to recognize my writing properly...Maybe it has improved since then? Maybe the iPad ecosystem does this better Not sure, to be honest. The writing experience was not ideal, either. I'd scroll the page by mistake, etc;
gverrilla 6y ago
The secret here is about the input: a key stroke on the keyboard is always the same movement, more or less, while letters are each a different symbol/drawing. There's very little creativity to pressing keys on a keyboard, while handwritten text is unique to each person, in time.
- heyoni 6y ago
  Every keystroke isn’t the same if that’s how deep you’re going to get into it. You never use the exact amount of force, or fall from exactly the same angle when typing either. It has nothing to do with that. There’s nothing inherently creative about writing. But it adds value in that it forces you to spend more time on a single thought while writing, which is not the case while typing. On a computer, you write your notes so much quicker that by the time you’re done, you barely put any thought into it. I have so notes I don’t even remember creating, but that never happens with handwritten ones.
  - rabidrat 6y ago
    > You never use the exact amount of force, or fall from exactly the same angle when typing either. None of that metadata is recorded, or could ever be revisited. But when I write with a pen, I can see the differences and sometimes it clearly relates back to the emotional experience.
    - smrq 6y ago
      Hack idea: a keyboard that records this data (speed of typing? force of key presses, maybe approximated by keyboard vibrations?) paired with an app that tweaks font settings accordingly. Definitely way more effort than it's worth, but it might be a cool dumb thing to build.
  - gverrilla 6y ago
    that's why I said "more or less". force and angle ain't really comparable to the freedom that exists in handwriting. this is why there is calligraphy as an art-form, and no equivalent for keyboards. about time to type, there's nothing stopping you from typing slower at all. also, if you choose to do it, it won't stop the forgetting-effect you mentioned. not to mention how much harder it is to learn how to draw letters and words vs typing in a keyboard..
intended 6y ago
That’s my issue with the Microsoft surface stylus work- and a lesser extent Apple. They don’t compare to written, and a decent amount is the pen tip friction. Wacom comes close. However the apps themselves ? I’d like to use one note more, but PDFs don’t become copy-able text. Searchable but not copyable. Writing on a surface device is ugh. And I had really high hopes that they would push on the tech. Procreate -iOS- has the best redo and undo features and gestures - which may as well be a lost art since no one else seems to be copying them and saving us manhours of annoyance.
- claudeganon 6y ago
  They make screen films to recreate this friction on the iPad Pro. A lot of my artists friends use them: https://paperlike.com/ https://paperlike.com/
  - bosie 6y ago
    Another endorsement for paperlike. The latest version is even better. And it’s much smoother and you don’t lose as much sharpness of the screen
  - dopu 6y ago
    Haven't used paperlike, but I use a much cheaper matte protector from TechArmor for drawing / taking notes on my iPad Pro and it's great. Would definitely recommend getting something like it. Bare screen's always felt too 'slippery' for me.
  - amelius 6y ago
    I always get bubbles under my screen protectors. And I don't use Apple. Not for me, I guess.
  - intended 6y ago
    Thanks ! I’ll look into it. Now if only the surface writing experience were comparable - I like one note 2016 more than the one on the iPad. God cmon MSFT, make this stuff just work. During one of the surface launch events, a presenter said her entire life was on one note. I can see that happen. But I can only see it, I can’t believe it will happen until the input modalities feel much better.
formerly_proven 6y ago
Similar experience here. Digital notetaking on non-touch devices fundamentally doesn't work, because non-textual expression requires too much work, digital notetaking with a stylus is better, but still doesn't work for the reasons you outlined. Writing with a fountain pen on good paper is like meditation to me; you wouldn't want to contaminate meditation with computers, like they contaminated everything else...
- vaxman 6y ago
  iPad with a 360 keyboard shell (Amazon) and a (genuine) ApplePencil in a magnetic sleeve (Amazon) is fine. Apple makes a variety of sizes and weights and they can be heavily customized. I recommend Notability tho GoodNotes is great too. As far as meditation, just don’t use the PiP or background audio capability (or have them display your favorite zen experience).
- vagab0nd 6y ago
  Any tips on how to get good paper?
  - formerly_proven 6y ago
    Oxford Optik Paper (90 g/m²) is very good, but clearly a premium option (2.5 EUR per 50 page A4 pad). I use Midori MD journals, not sure if they even sell writing pads, which are excellent as well. At university I mostly used cheap Brunnen paper for note-taking, not nearly as good as the Oxford, and you'd only want to write on it single-sided, but very cheap (a ten pack of 50 page pads costs the same as a single Oxford pad) and much better than some of the other cheap paper which basically seems to be photocopier paper glued together, which is awful to write on. There are probably paper review forums or blogs or something like that that might help you find nice paper locally. I always buy blank pads and usually use my own ruling backing paper, which has black and somewhat thicker lines than what comes with writing pads, which makes them easier to see in not-that-great lighting conditions.
mumblemumble 6y ago
I think you could even generalize that a bit, and say that limits tend to foster creativity. My best software designs happen when I'm taking notes on paper, and I think it's largely what you say - I can't write as fast as I can think, which more or less forces me to think more carefully. The founder of You Need a Budget makes a similar argument about budgeting and not spending on credit - the financial limits encourage you to manage your entire lifestyle more creatively. It's often observed that small, scrappy, hungry companies tend to come up with more creative solutions than large, well-capitalized corporations, and even observed that formerly small and creative startups seem to lose that spark as the money rolls in. There's that section in The Odyssey with the island of the lotus-eaters. Speaking of poetry, I suspect that many poets would say that their creativity is enhanced by working within the limits imposed by a poetic form.
- vijucat 6y ago
  Wonderful reply. Thanks!
jhwhite 6y ago
I almost feel the opposite. I've had tons of ideas and when I started writing them out they flowed out of my mind faster than I could write. But I don't have the best retention either. So I would have tons and tons of ideas and by the time I got it to paper I could remember maybe 3 things and couldn't recall the rest.
mjrbrennan 6y ago
I write fiction, and I write everything in longhand for this exact reason. It can be difficult start some days but once I do it’s easier to get into that “edge of sleep” state you describe, where the creative juices start flowing more freely. My handwriting is awful, but being able to quickly scribble out ideas and add margin notes is very useful. Writing longhand allows much better harmony between my brain and the page. There are no distractions on paper either! One downside is that I have to then type all my writing up, but I use this time as an opportunity to do a first editing pass.

sooheon 6y ago

Ted Chiang's "The Truth of Fact, the Truth of Fiction" is one of the best treatments I've read on this topic. https://web.archive.org/web/20140222103103/http://subterraneanpress.com/magazine/fall_2013/the_truth_of_fact_the_truth_of_feeling_by_ted_chiang https://web.archive.org/web/20140222103103/http://subterrane...

laudable-logic 6y ago

Have you tried using OneNote's handwriting recognition feature? I am curious if that experience would allow for the regaining of the pen-to-paper "magic". Edit: typo

corty 6y ago
I have, and it doesn't work. The recognition is good enough for a demo, in the store you will be really impressed how well it works. However, when really taking notes on the go you use your own abbreviations it doesn't know, use slang or scientific/technical language. Thats where it breaks down and degrades into the usual "I hate you, autocorrect" spiel. Also, OneNote does it's recognition and replaces your handwritten text by printed text of a different size. This makes all kinds of diagrams, side-by-side-text, tables, etc impossible. I have gone back to a paper notebook.
- ygra 6y ago
  You don't have to replace your handwritten text. It's searchable even as ink. Can't say I've ever used the ink to text feature.
vijucat 6y ago
I used it way back (5+ years ago), and it was too cumbersome to train the recognition engine to recognize my writing properly...Maybe it has improved since then? Maybe the iPad ecosystem does this better Not sure, to be honest. The writing experience was not ideal, either. I'd scroll the page by mistake, etc;

gverrilla 6y ago

The secret here is about the input: a key stroke on the keyboard is always the same movement, more or less, while letters are each a different symbol/drawing. There's very little creativity to pressing keys on a keyboard, while handwritten text is unique to each person, in time.

heyoni 6y ago
Every keystroke isn’t the same if that’s how deep you’re going to get into it. You never use the exact amount of force, or fall from exactly the same angle when typing either. It has nothing to do with that. There’s nothing inherently creative about writing. But it adds value in that it forces you to spend more time on a single thought while writing, which is not the case while typing. On a computer, you write your notes so much quicker that by the time you’re done, you barely put any thought into it. I have so notes I don’t even remember creating, but that never happens with handwritten ones.
- rabidrat 6y ago
  > You never use the exact amount of force, or fall from exactly the same angle when typing either. None of that metadata is recorded, or could ever be revisited. But when I write with a pen, I can see the differences and sometimes it clearly relates back to the emotional experience.
  - smrq 6y ago
    Hack idea: a keyboard that records this data (speed of typing? force of key presses, maybe approximated by keyboard vibrations?) paired with an app that tweaks font settings accordingly. Definitely way more effort than it's worth, but it might be a cool dumb thing to build.
- gverrilla 6y ago
  that's why I said "more or less". force and angle ain't really comparable to the freedom that exists in handwriting. this is why there is calligraphy as an art-form, and no equivalent for keyboards. about time to type, there's nothing stopping you from typing slower at all. also, if you choose to do it, it won't stop the forgetting-effect you mentioned. not to mention how much harder it is to learn how to draw letters and words vs typing in a keyboard..

intended 6y ago

That’s my issue with the Microsoft surface stylus work- and a lesser extent Apple. They don’t compare to written, and a decent amount is the pen tip friction. Wacom comes close. However the apps themselves ? I’d like to use one note more, but PDFs don’t become copy-able text. Searchable but not copyable. Writing on a surface device is ugh. And I had really high hopes that they would push on the tech. Procreate -iOS- has the best redo and undo features and gestures - which may as well be a lost art since no one else seems to be copying them and saving us manhours of annoyance.

claudeganon 6y ago
They make screen films to recreate this friction on the iPad Pro. A lot of my artists friends use them: https://paperlike.com/ https://paperlike.com/
- bosie 6y ago
  Another endorsement for paperlike. The latest version is even better. And it’s much smoother and you don’t lose as much sharpness of the screen
- dopu 6y ago
  Haven't used paperlike, but I use a much cheaper matte protector from TechArmor for drawing / taking notes on my iPad Pro and it's great. Would definitely recommend getting something like it. Bare screen's always felt too 'slippery' for me.
- amelius 6y ago
  I always get bubbles under my screen protectors. And I don't use Apple. Not for me, I guess.
- intended 6y ago
  Thanks ! I’ll look into it. Now if only the surface writing experience were comparable - I like one note 2016 more than the one on the iPad. God cmon MSFT, make this stuff just work. During one of the surface launch events, a presenter said her entire life was on one note. I can see that happen. But I can only see it, I can’t believe it will happen until the input modalities feel much better.

formerly_proven 6y ago

Similar experience here. Digital notetaking on non-touch devices fundamentally doesn't work, because non-textual expression requires too much work, digital notetaking with a stylus is better, but still doesn't work for the reasons you outlined. Writing with a fountain pen on good paper is like meditation to me; you wouldn't want to contaminate meditation with computers, like they contaminated everything else...

vaxman 6y ago
iPad with a 360 keyboard shell (Amazon) and a (genuine) ApplePencil in a magnetic sleeve (Amazon) is fine. Apple makes a variety of sizes and weights and they can be heavily customized. I recommend Notability tho GoodNotes is great too. As far as meditation, just don’t use the PiP or background audio capability (or have them display your favorite zen experience).
vagab0nd 6y ago
Any tips on how to get good paper?
- formerly_proven 6y ago
  Oxford Optik Paper (90 g/m²) is very good, but clearly a premium option (2.5 EUR per 50 page A4 pad). I use Midori MD journals, not sure if they even sell writing pads, which are excellent as well. At university I mostly used cheap Brunnen paper for note-taking, not nearly as good as the Oxford, and you'd only want to write on it single-sided, but very cheap (a ten pack of 50 page pads costs the same as a single Oxford pad) and much better than some of the other cheap paper which basically seems to be photocopier paper glued together, which is awful to write on. There are probably paper review forums or blogs or something like that that might help you find nice paper locally. I always buy blank pads and usually use my own ruling backing paper, which has black and somewhat thicker lines than what comes with writing pads, which makes them easier to see in not-that-great lighting conditions.

mumblemumble 6y ago

I think you could even generalize that a bit, and say that limits tend to foster creativity. My best software designs happen when I'm taking notes on paper, and I think it's largely what you say - I can't write as fast as I can think, which more or less forces me to think more carefully. The founder of You Need a Budget makes a similar argument about budgeting and not spending on credit - the financial limits encourage you to manage your entire lifestyle more creatively. It's often observed that small, scrappy, hungry companies tend to come up with more creative solutions than large, well-capitalized corporations, and even observed that formerly small and creative startups seem to lose that spark as the money rolls in. There's that section in The Odyssey with the island of the lotus-eaters. Speaking of poetry, I suspect that many poets would say that their creativity is enhanced by working within the limits imposed by a poetic form.

vijucat 6y ago
Wonderful reply. Thanks!

jhwhite 6y ago

I almost feel the opposite. I've had tons of ideas and when I started writing them out they flowed out of my mind faster than I could write. But I don't have the best retention either. So I would have tons and tons of ideas and by the time I got it to paper I could remember maybe 3 things and couldn't recall the rest.

mjrbrennan 6y ago

I write fiction, and I write everything in longhand for this exact reason. It can be difficult start some days but once I do it’s easier to get into that “edge of sleep” state you describe, where the creative juices start flowing more freely. My handwriting is awful, but being able to quickly scribble out ideas and add margin notes is very useful. Writing longhand allows much better harmony between my brain and the page. There are no distractions on paper either! One downside is that I have to then type all my writing up, but I use this time as an opportunity to do a first editing pass.