7 ms·

Maybe these Portlanders should stop trying to burn down the federal courthouse.

whatthesmack 6y ago
My thoughts exactly. When they’re being violent and destroying things, does it really come as a surprise that they’re getting arrested?
- LurkersWillLurk 6y ago
  This isn't about whether or not they get arrested. This is about certain ground rules and principles that the government must always uphold, even against unprincipled opponents. Federal law enforcement officers, dressed in camo gear and without any identifying insignia, arresting and covering the faces of alleged rioters and stuffing them into unmarked vehicles and taking them God-knows-where is absolutely unacceptable. These principles are what separates the government from the rioters. How are you going to hold the government accountable when you don't even know which government agency a certain police officer belongs to?
  - Google234 6y ago
    I have a feel we know where the rioters are being taken after being arrested. This has been going on for more than a month.
    - beervirus 6y ago
      Where do you think they’re going?
    - DuskStar 6y ago
      Well, the answer seems to be "back to the streets", since the guy in the video everyone seems to have seen was released without charges...
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    The uniforms in the videos clearly say "POLICE" on them. According to the people released, they were read their Miranda rights - and who cares that they are dressed in camo and using unmarked cars? As long as the suspect is put before a judge, I don't see the issue.
    - LurkersWillLurk 6y ago
      A tiny amount of "police" text isn't worth much of anything. There is absolutely no defensible reason to hide the agency patch and badge number of every individual officer on the ground. There is absolutely no defensible reason to tie beanbags around the faces of arrestees. There is absolutely no defensible reason for the police to put arrestees into unmarked vehicles. There is no way of ascertaining exactly who these federal agents are. This precludes court redress and is unacceptable.
      - kyleee 6y ago
        They have agency patches on too, just for the sake of truth
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      So, uh, are they police? I mean, they do seem to be sworn law enforcement, I just wonder if they are operating under any sort of valid remit that would make it reasonable to call them police.
- e12e 6y ago
  By federal agencies?
lordofgibbons 6y ago
Agreed. No rights for the suspected criminals! Let's round them up all of the suspects and put them in a dark hole with no records of the detainment </sarcasm>
- koheripbal 6y ago
  The process of arrest and bringing them to court is literally the process by which the gov't shows the court the evidence against them. So you have a few videos of their arrest... what's the problem?
  - jorblumesea 6y ago
    Unmarked vehicles filled with agents refusing to identify themselves whisking away protestors to unofficial sites to be interrogated (but released hours later without charges) is not "justice as usual". It's crazy that we're trying to justify this. If they've truly done something wrong, issue a warrant or do a normal arrest like every other criminal. It's hard to see this as anything less than extra judicial intimidation.
Kednicma 6y ago
How would they do it? Heck, how would you do it? This isn't idle banter, nor am I trolling for a ban or an FBI watchlist. The federal courthouse building [0] is one of several stone buildings downtown, built out of massive blocks of stone on the outside, with a core of steel and concrete. This building is basically a block-sized stone. I've been inside it a few times. I would not characterize it as flammable in the slightest. Additionally, even during peaceful times, the courthouse blocks are designed to be guarded. Each courthouse is inset from the street and there are stone steps giving guards the high ground. I have personally had an experience where I was walking past this building, and I looked up the stairs at the door, and I slowed down. Within about five seconds, the door was open and a federal agent was asking me what I needed, while I was still standing on the sidewalk. The sidewalks are covered with spaces for police and federal agents to park, and again even during peaceful times, ever since 9/11 there have been multiple federal cars parked around these blocks. So yeah, on both "how oxidize building" and "how not get shot by feds", I'd rate this courthouse 0/10, could not burn it and I'd get shot if I tried. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gus_J._Solomon_United_States_Courthouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gus_J._Solomon_United_States_C...
- koheripbal 6y ago
  The exterior walls are stone - the entire interior and roof are wood, as well as most the interior walls, floors, ceilings, and furniture/carpeting. It is absolutely flammable.
  - eesmith 6y ago
    Carpeting is treated with fire retardant. Interior structures are built to fire code. Solid wood is flammable, yes, but difficult to ignite. Treated oak has even been used as a spacecraft re-entry heat shield - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanhui_Shi_Weixing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanhui_Shi_Weixing . After the Oklahoma City bombing, federal buildings were made more resistant to terrorist attacks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_building_security https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_building... says Federal courts are Level IV, or one below the Pentagon. Verified with https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GAOREPORTS-T-GGD-98-141/pdf/GAOREPORTS-T-GGD-98-141.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GAOREPORTS-T-GGD-98-141/... . If it's so easy to ignite that a few firework mortars can set it ablaze, then the US federal building security system is a joke just waiting for the next McVeigh and Nichols.

My thoughts exactly. When they’re being violent and destroying things, does it really come as a surprise that they’re getting arrested?

LurkersWillLurk 6y ago
This isn't about whether or not they get arrested. This is about certain ground rules and principles that the government must always uphold, even against unprincipled opponents. Federal law enforcement officers, dressed in camo gear and without any identifying insignia, arresting and covering the faces of alleged rioters and stuffing them into unmarked vehicles and taking them God-knows-where is absolutely unacceptable. These principles are what separates the government from the rioters. How are you going to hold the government accountable when you don't even know which government agency a certain police officer belongs to?
- Google234 6y ago
  I have a feel we know where the rioters are being taken after being arrested. This has been going on for more than a month.
  - beervirus 6y ago
    Where do you think they’re going?
  - DuskStar 6y ago
    Well, the answer seems to be "back to the streets", since the guy in the video everyone seems to have seen was released without charges...
- koheripbal 6y ago
  The uniforms in the videos clearly say "POLICE" on them. According to the people released, they were read their Miranda rights - and who cares that they are dressed in camo and using unmarked cars? As long as the suspect is put before a judge, I don't see the issue.
  - LurkersWillLurk 6y ago
    A tiny amount of "police" text isn't worth much of anything. There is absolutely no defensible reason to hide the agency patch and badge number of every individual officer on the ground. There is absolutely no defensible reason to tie beanbags around the faces of arrestees. There is absolutely no defensible reason for the police to put arrestees into unmarked vehicles. There is no way of ascertaining exactly who these federal agents are. This precludes court redress and is unacceptable.
    - kyleee 6y ago
      They have agency patches on too, just for the sake of truth
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    So, uh, are they police? I mean, they do seem to be sworn law enforcement, I just wonder if they are operating under any sort of valid remit that would make it reasonable to call them police.
e12e 6y ago
By federal agencies?

lordofgibbons 6y ago

Agreed. No rights for the suspected criminals! Let's round them up all of the suspects and put them in a dark hole with no records of the detainment </sarcasm>

koheripbal 6y ago
The process of arrest and bringing them to court is literally the process by which the gov't shows the court the evidence against them. So you have a few videos of their arrest... what's the problem?
- jorblumesea 6y ago
  Unmarked vehicles filled with agents refusing to identify themselves whisking away protestors to unofficial sites to be interrogated (but released hours later without charges) is not "justice as usual". It's crazy that we're trying to justify this. If they've truly done something wrong, issue a warrant or do a normal arrest like every other criminal. It's hard to see this as anything less than extra judicial intimidation.

Kednicma 6y ago

How would they do it? Heck, how would you do it? This isn't idle banter, nor am I trolling for a ban or an FBI watchlist. The federal courthouse building [0] is one of several stone buildings downtown, built out of massive blocks of stone on the outside, with a core of steel and concrete. This building is basically a block-sized stone. I've been inside it a few times. I would not characterize it as flammable in the slightest. Additionally, even during peaceful times, the courthouse blocks are designed to be guarded. Each courthouse is inset from the street and there are stone steps giving guards the high ground. I have personally had an experience where I was walking past this building, and I looked up the stairs at the door, and I slowed down. Within about five seconds, the door was open and a federal agent was asking me what I needed, while I was still standing on the sidewalk. The sidewalks are covered with spaces for police and federal agents to park, and again even during peaceful times, ever since 9/11 there have been multiple federal cars parked around these blocks. So yeah, on both "how oxidize building" and "how not get shot by feds", I'd rate this courthouse 0/10, could not burn it and I'd get shot if I tried. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gus_J._Solomon_United_States_Courthouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gus_J._Solomon_United_States_C...

koheripbal 6y ago
The exterior walls are stone - the entire interior and roof are wood, as well as most the interior walls, floors, ceilings, and furniture/carpeting. It is absolutely flammable.
- eesmith 6y ago
  Carpeting is treated with fire retardant. Interior structures are built to fire code. Solid wood is flammable, yes, but difficult to ignite. Treated oak has even been used as a spacecraft re-entry heat shield - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanhui_Shi_Weixing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanhui_Shi_Weixing . After the Oklahoma City bombing, federal buildings were made more resistant to terrorist attacks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_building_security https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_building... says Federal courts are Level IV, or one below the Pentagon. Verified with https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GAOREPORTS-T-GGD-98-141/pdf/GAOREPORTS-T-GGD-98-141.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GAOREPORTS-T-GGD-98-141/... . If it's so easy to ignite that a few firework mortars can set it ablaze, then the US federal building security system is a joke just waiting for the next McVeigh and Nichols.