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> 4 years US students spend obtaining an undergraduate degree before starting medical school. This seems wasteful. While it's not required, the majority of stu

> 4 years US students spend obtaining an undergraduate degree before starting medical school. This seems wasteful. While it's not required, the majority of students DO follow a pre-med program that allows them to take Biology, Organic chem, Chemistry, Physics, Psychology, etc... These aren't wasted years, for the majority of medical students. I think the solution is more about having more medical schools and reinforcing STEM for younger students so that the supply can keep up with demand. One of the reasons so many foreign students go into medicine is because they come from countries with very strong culture of STEM education at a young age - something that's not done in the majority of US school districts.

arcticbull 6y ago
> These aren't wasted years, for the majority of medical students. They aren't wasted but they're not necessary either, and I think that was the point. Let's say I wanted to become a general contractor, but for some reason that's a graduate program. I spend 4 years taking civil engineering. Did I waste my time learning about concrete... no, probably not, but it is necessary to do my job? Also no. It's also hard to equate your "stronger early focus on STEM" with a pre-med program. If all it takes is teaching biology and math a little earlier, is that 4 years really the best use of time?
- senortumnus 6y ago
  I place enormous value on my undergrad training in chemistry before going on to med school. Impossible to prove but I do think the deeper your foundation in life sciences the better your ability to adapt to new medicines, procedures, & other advances in medicine. Speaking as a urologist. Edit: the pre med prereqs are a good start. But I value the skills & concepts from the senior level bio/chem classes that I wouldn’t have gotten with a 6 yr track. Something also to be said for the emotional maturity that comes with 4 yrs prior to med school.
  - TheTruestKyle 6y ago
    But not the real world.
  - asapatient 6y ago
    "Impossible to prove..." sure, but that's tautology outside some very constrained problem domains like mathematics. The salient question is cost/benefit. What is the cost in terms of lives and resources of those extra years? Do sufficient benefits obtain? The US is globally known as a great place to get treated for cancers, especially. 5 year survival rates are relatively high - but of course only a fraction of Americans actually have access to the kind of diagnostics and treatments that deliver these outcomes, and only a smaller fraction of those with said access actually pass on significant assets to their heirs. For most, the medical- and death-industrial complex fulfills its primary extractive purpose. I find it deeply ironic that your literally academic perspective ("Something also to be said for the emotional maturity that comes with 4 yrs prior to med school") is so utterly subjective - i.e. about your feelings, NOT data around outcomes. In the OECD, people live longer, on average, in places where less time and money is spent educating physicians. Yes, there are confounding factors - but this is true even controlling for the big ones like obesity
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Presumably, at a whole society level that would then mean the UK adapts poorer to new procedures than the US. Have you observed things that make you believe that is the case? Not looking for proof of what you say (you say “impossible to prove” after all, and that’s fair) but surely something makes you believe this.
- nradov 6y ago
  I don't understand your example. A strong knowledge of concrete is necessary to do a good job as a general contractor. I'm pretty sure the licensing exam has some questions about concrete.
soluproj 6y ago
All accredited US allopathic schools do require the same set of prerequisite classes to be taken by applicants (the ones you mentioned). The required courses typically take 1-2 years to complete depending on an individual’s course load and pain tolerance.
- titanomachy 6y ago
  Does anyone use the term "allopathic" besides naturopaths or osteopaths? If you just say "medical school" people will assume MD program.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - glioma 6y ago
    In the US if someone says medical student or medical school they either mean a DO or MD. If someone says allopathic, the mean the MD school subsection of medical students. As of last year, MD and DO students go on to the same residencies, the difference lies only in name and the addition of osteopathy (a combination of valid physical therapy and some voodoo techniques) which the majority of DO students don't believe in, and the few that do keep perpetuating the BS forward unfortunately
    - titanomachy 6y ago
      Thanks for the perspective, my country (Canada) doesn't have DO so it's not something I understand too well. Here, "allopath" seems mostly used as a derogatory term by naturopaths, homeopaths, etc.
loraa 6y ago
Also remember that many third world type countries see these types of careers as a way to leave their country to go to the western world. People in the western world figure out they can make more than doctors by being jackasses on YouTube.
burfog 6y ago
It's wasted, mostly. Add it up: These are good students, so they enter college with AP Chemistry and AP Biology credit. Start off college with Organic Chemistry 1, then Organic Chemistry 2, then Biochemistry. That's just 1 year to take the classes actually needed to enter medical school in the USA. Some students might even take those classes via dual enrollment (a.k.a. dual credit, early college, etc.) while still in high school. That is 0 to 1 years needed after high school. The medical schools demand a 3-year degree (actual time) at minimum, which in the USA means a 4-year degree. Subtract as you please, and you'll get an unjustified excess of 2 to 4 years.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- oasisbob 6y ago
  Do AP classes require a strong lab component? My honors chem class was in 10th grade. It barely touched on electronegativity, nor acid/base chemistry in a through way. To expect a student to pull that experience forward two years later and integrate it with calculus to pull off organic chemistry seems non-ideal for many students. And you really need the through physics/calculus component unless you want to wave biochem students past thermodynamics, which seems crazy to this former biochem student. Cut the one quarter quantum mechanics class, perhaps.
  - burfog 6y ago
    AP science classes do require a strong lab component. This is required for use of the "AP" trademark on a transcript. There is a competing college credit test system, International Baccalaureate, that actually includes lab work as part of the test. Physics and calculus are available too. The right ones would be AP Calculus BC, AP Physics C Mechanics, and AP Physics C E+M.

arcticbull 6y ago

> These aren't wasted years, for the majority of medical students. They aren't wasted but they're not necessary either, and I think that was the point. Let's say I wanted to become a general contractor, but for some reason that's a graduate program. I spend 4 years taking civil engineering. Did I waste my time learning about concrete... no, probably not, but it is necessary to do my job? Also no. It's also hard to equate your "stronger early focus on STEM" with a pre-med program. If all it takes is teaching biology and math a little earlier, is that 4 years really the best use of time?

senortumnus 6y ago
I place enormous value on my undergrad training in chemistry before going on to med school. Impossible to prove but I do think the deeper your foundation in life sciences the better your ability to adapt to new medicines, procedures, & other advances in medicine. Speaking as a urologist. Edit: the pre med prereqs are a good start. But I value the skills & concepts from the senior level bio/chem classes that I wouldn’t have gotten with a 6 yr track. Something also to be said for the emotional maturity that comes with 4 yrs prior to med school.
- TheTruestKyle 6y ago
  But not the real world.
- asapatient 6y ago
  "Impossible to prove..." sure, but that's tautology outside some very constrained problem domains like mathematics. The salient question is cost/benefit. What is the cost in terms of lives and resources of those extra years? Do sufficient benefits obtain? The US is globally known as a great place to get treated for cancers, especially. 5 year survival rates are relatively high - but of course only a fraction of Americans actually have access to the kind of diagnostics and treatments that deliver these outcomes, and only a smaller fraction of those with said access actually pass on significant assets to their heirs. For most, the medical- and death-industrial complex fulfills its primary extractive purpose. I find it deeply ironic that your literally academic perspective ("Something also to be said for the emotional maturity that comes with 4 yrs prior to med school") is so utterly subjective - i.e. about your feelings, NOT data around outcomes. In the OECD, people live longer, on average, in places where less time and money is spent educating physicians. Yes, there are confounding factors - but this is true even controlling for the big ones like obesity
- renewiltord 6y ago
  Presumably, at a whole society level that would then mean the UK adapts poorer to new procedures than the US. Have you observed things that make you believe that is the case? Not looking for proof of what you say (you say “impossible to prove” after all, and that’s fair) but surely something makes you believe this.
nradov 6y ago
I don't understand your example. A strong knowledge of concrete is necessary to do a good job as a general contractor. I'm pretty sure the licensing exam has some questions about concrete.

soluproj 6y ago

All accredited US allopathic schools do require the same set of prerequisite classes to be taken by applicants (the ones you mentioned). The required courses typically take 1-2 years to complete depending on an individual’s course load and pain tolerance.

titanomachy 6y ago
Does anyone use the term "allopathic" besides naturopaths or osteopaths? If you just say "medical school" people will assume MD program.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- glioma 6y ago
  In the US if someone says medical student or medical school they either mean a DO or MD. If someone says allopathic, the mean the MD school subsection of medical students. As of last year, MD and DO students go on to the same residencies, the difference lies only in name and the addition of osteopathy (a combination of valid physical therapy and some voodoo techniques) which the majority of DO students don't believe in, and the few that do keep perpetuating the BS forward unfortunately
  - titanomachy 6y ago
    Thanks for the perspective, my country (Canada) doesn't have DO so it's not something I understand too well. Here, "allopath" seems mostly used as a derogatory term by naturopaths, homeopaths, etc.

loraa 6y ago

Also remember that many third world type countries see these types of careers as a way to leave their country to go to the western world. People in the western world figure out they can make more than doctors by being jackasses on YouTube.

burfog 6y ago

It's wasted, mostly. Add it up: These are good students, so they enter college with AP Chemistry and AP Biology credit. Start off college with Organic Chemistry 1, then Organic Chemistry 2, then Biochemistry. That's just 1 year to take the classes actually needed to enter medical school in the USA. Some students might even take those classes via dual enrollment (a.k.a. dual credit, early college, etc.) while still in high school. That is 0 to 1 years needed after high school. The medical schools demand a 3-year degree (actual time) at minimum, which in the USA means a 4-year degree. Subtract as you please, and you'll get an unjustified excess of 2 to 4 years.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
oasisbob 6y ago
Do AP classes require a strong lab component? My honors chem class was in 10th grade. It barely touched on electronegativity, nor acid/base chemistry in a through way. To expect a student to pull that experience forward two years later and integrate it with calculus to pull off organic chemistry seems non-ideal for many students. And you really need the through physics/calculus component unless you want to wave biochem students past thermodynamics, which seems crazy to this former biochem student. Cut the one quarter quantum mechanics class, perhaps.
- burfog 6y ago
  AP science classes do require a strong lab component. This is required for use of the "AP" trademark on a transcript. There is a competing college credit test system, International Baccalaureate, that actually includes lab work as part of the test. Physics and calculus are available too. The right ones would be AP Calculus BC, AP Physics C Mechanics, and AP Physics C E+M.