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Good article for the most part. I was amazed when I moved here from Santa Monica a.k.a. Silicon Beach at how much startup and VC activity there is. Even down in

Good article for the most part. I was amazed when I moved here from Santa Monica a.k.a. Silicon Beach at how much startup and VC activity there is. Even down in Provo which I'd probably call the southern terminus of Silicon Slopes I overheard VC pitches at the next table in the restaurants every day at lunch. There is a lot of hustle and prosperity going on out here. Provo is also a very Mormon town in a Mormon state, containing BYU and also their missionary training center. Despite that I haven't found the cultural shift too jarring, though I will say the liquor selection in the state-run stores is a little lacking. Overall it seems like a very healthy and industrious community and I don't doubt it will continue to grow as the previous centers of tech innovation in America start to run into some very hard limits in terms of housing, cost of living, density of young well-educated workers, and overall lifestyle quality.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Housing: The problem is that Provo and Salt Lake both sit in valleys with pretty steep mountains around them. There's not that much more room left to build more houses on. (Provo has some, south of it, and the Salt Lake Valley has some on the southwest quadrant, but they're getting somewhat close to maxed out.) So housing prices, while currently not that bad by the standards of the rest of the tech hubs, may not stay that way for long.
- elindbe2 6y ago
  Couldn't they build upwards though?
  - irrational 6y ago
    That would probably mean apartments, but Mormon families still tend to be very large (very very large by the standards of non-Mormon families) and they typically want large backyards for their kids. Maybe someday that will change, but not soon enough to make a material difference in our lifetimes.
    - TulliusCicero 6y ago
      Nah, that's not a real problem. 1. > but Mormon families still tend to be very large I think you'd be surprised. Mormon families are still larger than average, but there are plenty of Mormon families with just one or two kids. Not to mention that there are going to be plenty of "pre-kid" adults, or empty nesters around, and they need homes too. What reason is there to make most of the land exclusively single-family homes on big lots? 2. You can still have access to a backyard with multi-family housing. Where I live now in Munich, you have lots of small (or large) apartment complexes with shared backyards that kids play in all the time. 3. There's all kinds of ranges of housing in between "single family home with large front and back yards" and "massive apartment block surrounded by sea of asphalt". Duplexes, 4-plexes, and townhomes all make for increased density. In any case, why not loosen the regulations and let the market decide? If there really isn't demand for apartment buildings, then developers won't build them, since they like money and all.
  - codingdave 6y ago
    There is some upwards growth in a few downtowns, but for the most part, keeping the mountain views available to everyone is important to people here.
- dougmwne 6y ago
  Only in America could a person consider Salt Lake City "full" or too dense. The area is an enormous sprawl with almost no density. It's true that there are some mountain ranges, but there are plentiful passes that lead into adjacent large valleys. They only way you run out of room is if everyone needs a suburban McMansion.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    True on both counts. But to build dense apartments,you'd have to tear down existing stuff (for the most part). That's not an impossible obstacle, of course, but it would take rezoning. I don't know how easy that is to do here. And yes, there are other valleys. Summit County isn't great, though, partly because it's very expensive (ski resort country), and partly because the valleys are very small. There's Tooele Valley to the west, but access is a problem (the valley is west of the Salt Lake Valley, and runs north-south, but the only connection is at the north end). There's the valley Nephi is in, south of Provo. (Maybe 10 years ago I considered buying some land on the northern side of this valley, on the idea that it would eventually become subdivisions.) I wouldn't want to live there and work anywhere north of Provo, though. And Utah doesn't (yet) have the mindset to accept two-hour commutes. So yes, you're right. And yet... it's going to take either zoning changes or long commute times, and I'm not sure what the appetite here is for either.
    - TulliusCicero 6y ago
      > That's not an impossible obstacle, of course, but it would take rezoning. I don't know how easy that is to do here. Depends on what dimension you're measuring. Technically? Easy, at one point most of the US didn't have strict zoning, and most peer nations have nothing like this, it's hardly necessary. And usually these cities allow for apartments somewhere in the city, even if it's a small strip of land, it's not some unknown concept. Politically? Hoo boy, that's a hard one. Because most Americans who live in these areas hate anything other than super low housing density.
  - bpodgursky 6y ago
    Much of the original reason Silicon Valley took off as a tech hub where New York, Chicago and other dense cities failed, was that it appealed to engineers with families, who wanted a stable place to raise kids in comfort. If SLC is trying to be the next SV, there's no reason to emulate cities which tried and failed to be tech hubs. Model against the winners.
- quotemstr 6y ago
  Salt Lake City is not very dense though. Even downtown is mostly relatively low-rise buildings, maybe 4-6 stories. A few skyscrapers would do wonders for housing capacity. Based on the time I've spent there, SLC is actually a very nice place. The only thing that concerns me is that the Great Salt Lake is slowly going the way [1] of the Aral Sea [2]. One of the things that makes SLC a bit more interesting and hospitable than the surrounding desert is the snowy mountains all around it and the moderating effect of the big nearby lake. Replace that lake with a dust bowl and you end up with something less compelling. [1] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/utah-s-great-salt-lake-has-lost-half-its-water-thanks-thirsty-humans https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/utah-s-great-salt-la... [2] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141001-aral-sea-shrinking-drought-water-environment/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141001-aral-...
- wolco 6y ago
  Wouldn't that be the type of property that would go up in value? Buy now..
- codingdave 6y ago
  They are working on plans to extend the rail lines farther south, which eases commutes and opens up more space for housing. We're seeing suburban neighborhoods go in as far south as Santaquin, because the jobs are also moving south... you can get tech jobs in Provo, not just Lehi or SLC. Also, as far north as American Fork, you can still find patches of open fields that have not yet been developed. The entire town of Vineyard barely existed a few years ago, and still has space to grow. The towns south of Provo are slowly getting more high density housing, and updating their master plans to accommodate more apartments and townhomes. The space for new housing will max out someday, but we are not there yet.
- nobleach 6y ago
  I live about 20 miles north of SLC. The home prices are still great up here (from about Centerville, up to South Ogden) There's also some room for growth. Although I am concerned about cities like Syracuse that have built awfully close to the Great Salt Lake.
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  They have tons of space. Just change regulations to allow more housing supply, like most other countries do. It's amazing how many cities in the US have a conversation that's roughly like: Help, housing prices are too high! Demand is outstripping our supply! Have you considered changing your local rules to allow for more supply? gasp
- wbl 6y ago
  Salt Lake can be much taller, away from the Temple and airport of course. Even three story apartment buildings would add a lot.
tropdrop 6y ago
I lived in Utah for 8 formative years (moving in from another country). I must say that growing up there and not being a part of The Church was very culturally jarring, even though I wasn't in Provo. Here is a good summary of our treatment as the only non-religious family in our neighborhood: We regularly brought cookies for Christmas to everyone on the street. When seeing surrounding houses shoveling snow, we would offer to use our snowblower to help. But when my mother fell on the driveway while struggling with two garbage bins and shouting for help, not one neighbor came out - not even the very pious bishop's family next door. She laid there in filth, and no one came. My mother is an engineer. Her experience in Utah tech was a constant drain on her mental faculties (read: suggestive comments from her male colleagues, pointed questions about the welfare of her children, etc.). Coming from the country we did, she was used to it, but I still found it amazing to see in America. In a very large Utah company, a line was crossed and she filed an HR complaint about an individual. This individual had little technical ability, but was known to be very religious and ingratiating to superiors. On the very same day he took a higher position, he laid my mother off - that's after ten years with the company, and every year her performance was commended with a raise, even when many other employees in the company started seeing years without raises! She was a stellar employee, but this individual's first action as manager was retaliation against the only female on the team for one HR complaint. Eventually, we could not take it and all left the state - I left as soon as I turned 18, my mother in now an engineer in a different state. After more than 8 years, we were still treated like strangers in our own neighborhood. The cultural shift doesn't feel too jarring on a visit - it's barely perceptible. But years of it starts to feel like social shunning.
- foobiekr 6y ago
  When I was a lot younger, I worked at an older high technology company in SLC and I mostly loved it. My co-workers were mostly great, the company was the best in its field (though was about to die, I'll get to that), I love the SLC area and Utah in general. I still have friends, mormon and not, from my time there. My direct management was kind, giving, open and knowledgeable and probably the best I have had in my career. However... the company had a really bad nepotism problem that resulted in protection and favoritism for mormons, and it was a cancer. I worked for the core part of the company, but they had multiple business units. There was an entire business unit that was falling apart because it was absolutely infested with incompetent LDS nepotism hires mostly in the management chain. It had apparently been a problem on and off for a decade+ but had recently started going really wrong when certain people had gotten into positions of authority. Within a few years, the company was effectively dead and had given up a bunch of its lines of business. All of the really good people I knew personally fled and went on to really amazing careers - and a lot left SLC due to the experience. Now.. the company might have died anyway. There were a lot of transitions at the time that took out the early high flyers. Certainly there were clouds on the horizon. But the immediate cause of death seems pretty clear. This was in the 90s, SLC was nice then as a place to live but is even nicer now - bike lanes downtown, etc. The air quality in the valley leaves a lot to be desired, the state government could easily clean that up if they wanted, and that's a problem. What stops me from moving back is the risk of social isolation for non-mormons and the nepotism. SLC proper is just under 50%, now, I think, but Utah county is 86% and the state as a whole 68%. It's a concern for them - they worry, "what if I get sick and need hospital care?" and wonder if they'll get the same level of treatment, they wonder if they'll ever be a tier-1 friend with half the population, etc.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

Housing: The problem is that Provo and Salt Lake both sit in valleys with pretty steep mountains around them. There's not that much more room left to build more houses on. (Provo has some, south of it, and the Salt Lake Valley has some on the southwest quadrant, but they're getting somewhat close to maxed out.) So housing prices, while currently not that bad by the standards of the rest of the tech hubs, may not stay that way for long.

elindbe2 6y ago
Couldn't they build upwards though?
- irrational 6y ago
  That would probably mean apartments, but Mormon families still tend to be very large (very very large by the standards of non-Mormon families) and they typically want large backyards for their kids. Maybe someday that will change, but not soon enough to make a material difference in our lifetimes.
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    Nah, that's not a real problem. 1. > but Mormon families still tend to be very large I think you'd be surprised. Mormon families are still larger than average, but there are plenty of Mormon families with just one or two kids. Not to mention that there are going to be plenty of "pre-kid" adults, or empty nesters around, and they need homes too. What reason is there to make most of the land exclusively single-family homes on big lots? 2. You can still have access to a backyard with multi-family housing. Where I live now in Munich, you have lots of small (or large) apartment complexes with shared backyards that kids play in all the time. 3. There's all kinds of ranges of housing in between "single family home with large front and back yards" and "massive apartment block surrounded by sea of asphalt". Duplexes, 4-plexes, and townhomes all make for increased density. In any case, why not loosen the regulations and let the market decide? If there really isn't demand for apartment buildings, then developers won't build them, since they like money and all.
- codingdave 6y ago
  There is some upwards growth in a few downtowns, but for the most part, keeping the mountain views available to everyone is important to people here.
dougmwne 6y ago
Only in America could a person consider Salt Lake City "full" or too dense. The area is an enormous sprawl with almost no density. It's true that there are some mountain ranges, but there are plentiful passes that lead into adjacent large valleys. They only way you run out of room is if everyone needs a suburban McMansion.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  True on both counts. But to build dense apartments,you'd have to tear down existing stuff (for the most part). That's not an impossible obstacle, of course, but it would take rezoning. I don't know how easy that is to do here. And yes, there are other valleys. Summit County isn't great, though, partly because it's very expensive (ski resort country), and partly because the valleys are very small. There's Tooele Valley to the west, but access is a problem (the valley is west of the Salt Lake Valley, and runs north-south, but the only connection is at the north end). There's the valley Nephi is in, south of Provo. (Maybe 10 years ago I considered buying some land on the northern side of this valley, on the idea that it would eventually become subdivisions.) I wouldn't want to live there and work anywhere north of Provo, though. And Utah doesn't (yet) have the mindset to accept two-hour commutes. So yes, you're right. And yet... it's going to take either zoning changes or long commute times, and I'm not sure what the appetite here is for either.
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    > That's not an impossible obstacle, of course, but it would take rezoning. I don't know how easy that is to do here. Depends on what dimension you're measuring. Technically? Easy, at one point most of the US didn't have strict zoning, and most peer nations have nothing like this, it's hardly necessary. And usually these cities allow for apartments somewhere in the city, even if it's a small strip of land, it's not some unknown concept. Politically? Hoo boy, that's a hard one. Because most Americans who live in these areas hate anything other than super low housing density.
- bpodgursky 6y ago
  Much of the original reason Silicon Valley took off as a tech hub where New York, Chicago and other dense cities failed, was that it appealed to engineers with families, who wanted a stable place to raise kids in comfort. If SLC is trying to be the next SV, there's no reason to emulate cities which tried and failed to be tech hubs. Model against the winners.
quotemstr 6y ago
Salt Lake City is not very dense though. Even downtown is mostly relatively low-rise buildings, maybe 4-6 stories. A few skyscrapers would do wonders for housing capacity. Based on the time I've spent there, SLC is actually a very nice place. The only thing that concerns me is that the Great Salt Lake is slowly going the way [1] of the Aral Sea [2]. One of the things that makes SLC a bit more interesting and hospitable than the surrounding desert is the snowy mountains all around it and the moderating effect of the big nearby lake. Replace that lake with a dust bowl and you end up with something less compelling. [1] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/utah-s-great-salt-lake-has-lost-half-its-water-thanks-thirsty-humans https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/utah-s-great-salt-la... [2] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141001-aral-sea-shrinking-drought-water-environment/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141001-aral-...
wolco 6y ago
Wouldn't that be the type of property that would go up in value? Buy now..
codingdave 6y ago
They are working on plans to extend the rail lines farther south, which eases commutes and opens up more space for housing. We're seeing suburban neighborhoods go in as far south as Santaquin, because the jobs are also moving south... you can get tech jobs in Provo, not just Lehi or SLC. Also, as far north as American Fork, you can still find patches of open fields that have not yet been developed. The entire town of Vineyard barely existed a few years ago, and still has space to grow. The towns south of Provo are slowly getting more high density housing, and updating their master plans to accommodate more apartments and townhomes. The space for new housing will max out someday, but we are not there yet.
nobleach 6y ago
I live about 20 miles north of SLC. The home prices are still great up here (from about Centerville, up to South Ogden) There's also some room for growth. Although I am concerned about cities like Syracuse that have built awfully close to the Great Salt Lake.
TulliusCicero 6y ago
They have tons of space. Just change regulations to allow more housing supply, like most other countries do. It's amazing how many cities in the US have a conversation that's roughly like: Help, housing prices are too high! Demand is outstripping our supply! Have you considered changing your local rules to allow for more supply? gasp
wbl 6y ago
Salt Lake can be much taller, away from the Temple and airport of course. Even three story apartment buildings would add a lot.

tropdrop 6y ago

I lived in Utah for 8 formative years (moving in from another country). I must say that growing up there and not being a part of The Church was very culturally jarring, even though I wasn't in Provo. Here is a good summary of our treatment as the only non-religious family in our neighborhood: We regularly brought cookies for Christmas to everyone on the street. When seeing surrounding houses shoveling snow, we would offer to use our snowblower to help. But when my mother fell on the driveway while struggling with two garbage bins and shouting for help, not one neighbor came out - not even the very pious bishop's family next door. She laid there in filth, and no one came. My mother is an engineer. Her experience in Utah tech was a constant drain on her mental faculties (read: suggestive comments from her male colleagues, pointed questions about the welfare of her children, etc.). Coming from the country we did, she was used to it, but I still found it amazing to see in America. In a very large Utah company, a line was crossed and she filed an HR complaint about an individual. This individual had little technical ability, but was known to be very religious and ingratiating to superiors. On the very same day he took a higher position, he laid my mother off - that's after ten years with the company, and every year her performance was commended with a raise, even when many other employees in the company started seeing years without raises! She was a stellar employee, but this individual's first action as manager was retaliation against the only female on the team for one HR complaint. Eventually, we could not take it and all left the state - I left as soon as I turned 18, my mother in now an engineer in a different state. After more than 8 years, we were still treated like strangers in our own neighborhood. The cultural shift doesn't feel too jarring on a visit - it's barely perceptible. But years of it starts to feel like social shunning.

foobiekr 6y ago
When I was a lot younger, I worked at an older high technology company in SLC and I mostly loved it. My co-workers were mostly great, the company was the best in its field (though was about to die, I'll get to that), I love the SLC area and Utah in general. I still have friends, mormon and not, from my time there. My direct management was kind, giving, open and knowledgeable and probably the best I have had in my career. However... the company had a really bad nepotism problem that resulted in protection and favoritism for mormons, and it was a cancer. I worked for the core part of the company, but they had multiple business units. There was an entire business unit that was falling apart because it was absolutely infested with incompetent LDS nepotism hires mostly in the management chain. It had apparently been a problem on and off for a decade+ but had recently started going really wrong when certain people had gotten into positions of authority. Within a few years, the company was effectively dead and had given up a bunch of its lines of business. All of the really good people I knew personally fled and went on to really amazing careers - and a lot left SLC due to the experience. Now.. the company might have died anyway. There were a lot of transitions at the time that took out the early high flyers. Certainly there were clouds on the horizon. But the immediate cause of death seems pretty clear. This was in the 90s, SLC was nice then as a place to live but is even nicer now - bike lanes downtown, etc. The air quality in the valley leaves a lot to be desired, the state government could easily clean that up if they wanted, and that's a problem. What stops me from moving back is the risk of social isolation for non-mormons and the nepotism. SLC proper is just under 50%, now, I think, but Utah county is 86% and the state as a whole 68%. It's a concern for them - they worry, "what if I get sick and need hospital care?" and wonder if they'll get the same level of treatment, they wonder if they'll ever be a tier-1 friend with half the population, etc.