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> before-taxes salary of USD 70.5k, and a salary after all taxes of USD 47k. What!? That's over 30% of your income gone, and for a relatively average income. T

> before-taxes salary of USD 70.5k, and a salary after all taxes of USD 47k. What!? That's over 30% of your income gone, and for a relatively average income. That's not even counting VAT and other taxes.... No wonder there's so much "free" stuff in Europe.

benhurmarcel 6y ago
€61k before taxes isn't really a relatively average income in France. A junior engineer (with a Masters) starts around €35k ($40k) before-taxes. Country-wide median salary is €28k ($32k). But across all those salaries it doesn't change the fact that around 45~55% of the employer's cost isn't going to the employee. And yes, taxes and cotisations are very high. On the other hand they cover most higher costs and risks in life (education, health, basic retirement…).
- dahfizz 6y ago
  Isn't $70.5k USD around €61k EUR?
  - benhurmarcel 6y ago
    You're right, I mixed up. I edit it. Still, €61k isn't an average salary. An engineer reaches that after about 10-15 years (from personal experience and some statistics I have access to). It's double the national median.
    - dahfizz 6y ago
      Wow, that's just crazy to me. It makes sense with the much stronger safety net, it's just a shock. How does rent and food costs compare to America, do you know?
      - benhurmarcel 6y ago
        Even with the stronger safety net, it doesn't make up for the difference compared to the US for well-paid employees (such as engineers, or tech in general). US employees are much more well-off, there's no denying that. US levels for engineers compare more to Swiss level of living. However the safety net is much more beneficial for less-paid people, at a relatively low cost for them. I only visited the US so others might be able to provide a more detailed comparison. It seems to me that rent is generally significantly higher in US cities (might be different in lower CoL areas), and groceries and other smaller budgets were slightly higher in France (restaurants, tech purchases, cars…).
        codpiece 6y ago
        I have worked in the US and Europe, and may give a direct comparison. US healthcare and education consume a vast portion of your pay. We paid cash for our daughter's college (biomedical engineering) at a total of over $300K. That buys her freedom of choice when it comes time to take a job, get an advanced degree, etc. Her colleagues will have more than $500K USD debt hanging over their heads when you factor interest payments. The company pays for a portion of health insurance, but much of the cost is picked up by the employee, either though co-payments or deductibles. We live modestly, drive low-end cars and don't dine out often. We see our European friends taking great vacations and their children bounce in and out of college programs. We see free healthcare, mountain cottages, and other perks unavailable to us.
        benhurmarcel 6y ago
        Interesting, thank you. It seems the calculation becomes very different when you factor in the cost of a child (especially if he goes to college).
      - cosmodisk 6y ago
        Without going into numbers all I can say about US vs Europe: for people with low income,Europe is much much better. For middle class, it boils down to some difficult choices( kids, education, leisure) and is probably equal. While upper middle class or highly paid professionals have it better in the US.
      - LandR 6y ago
        I'm in Scotland, my salary is about £45-£48k. I take home about £31k. The median salary here is about £21k nationwide. I bought my home for £170k, now worth about £230k. it's a decent sized apartment in a nice area in the city where I work. For an indication of size, my living room is about 23ft by 28ft, 2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms. Some photos to show what I got for my money: https://imgur.com/gallery/6oNLRtl https://imgur.com/gallery/6oNLRtl My outgoings each month average out to around £1200k. Mortgage is under £450 a month. Healthcare is all free, university is free, prescriptions are free.
        balfirevic 6y ago
        Did you have a large down payment? That looks like a small monthly cost for such mortgage. Or maybe the interest on such loan in Scotland is very small.
        LandR 6y ago
        My down payment was £70k, interest rate is 2.14% When I renew at end of year it shoul be around 1.1%
        balfirevic 6y ago
        Well damn, I don't think there is anything below 3.00% (3.50% more common) where I live. That's nominal - 3.5% - 4.0% is the effective interest rate. I don't know much about mortgages, so not sure if I'm missing something. Congrats on your place - it looks great!
        dahfizz 6y ago
        Is that right? I think inflation makes the effective interest rate lower than the nominal rate. You could imagine that inflation pays ~1% of your mortgage for you because each dollar that you owe is becoming less and less valuable.
        balfirevic 6y ago
pantaloony 6y ago
Notably, I doubt you could get family healthcare coverage in the US that reduced your financial risk as much as France’s does for under $25,000/yr. Even at that rate I bet your exposure’s still worse.
- dahfizz 6y ago
  > I doubt you could get family healthcare coverage in the US that reduced your financial risk as much as France’s does for under $25,000/yr. I'm not so sure. It looks like the average liability for a family (12 monthly premiums plus deductable) comes in at just under $23k[1]. That's the max the average family would pay. Obviously for just a single person total liability is a lot lower. So for a person like me who makes good money being an engineer, I am still better off in America where I can make a lot of money but also pay a little more in COL / healthcare stuff. [1] https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/individual-and-family/how-much-does-individual-health-insurance-cost https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/individual-and-fa...
  - pantaloony 6y ago
    Wow, that’s... much cheaper than I’ve seen. In my non-coastal middling-wealth state, you’re looking at $1500/m for an HSA family plan that still leaves you with tens of thousands in risk per year, and reducing that risk gets expensive fast (often it’s even worse, and you end up guaranteed to pay more per year than you might pay if something goes wrong under one of the cheaper plans)
balfirevic 6y ago
For fun, here are the figures for Croatia (yearly take-home salary and total cost for employer, all in USD for easier comparison): Average salary (take-home): $11874 Average salary (total cost for employer): $19875 Median salary (take-home): $10225 Median salary (total cost for employer): $16526 Starting junior dev salary (take-home): $14800 Starting junior dev salary (total cost for employer): $25800 Senior dev salary (they can go higher, but that's relatively rare for local employers) (take-home): $27700 Senior dev salary (total cost for employer): $52000 VAT is 25%. Safety net is a joke. Health care is universal, but not that good. Education is mediocre at best.

benhurmarcel 6y ago

€61k before taxes isn't really a relatively average income in France. A junior engineer (with a Masters) starts around €35k ($40k) before-taxes. Country-wide median salary is €28k ($32k). But across all those salaries it doesn't change the fact that around 45~55% of the employer's cost isn't going to the employee. And yes, taxes and cotisations are very high. On the other hand they cover most higher costs and risks in life (education, health, basic retirement…).

dahfizz 6y ago
Isn't $70.5k USD around €61k EUR?
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  You're right, I mixed up. I edit it. Still, €61k isn't an average salary. An engineer reaches that after about 10-15 years (from personal experience and some statistics I have access to). It's double the national median.
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    Wow, that's just crazy to me. It makes sense with the much stronger safety net, it's just a shock. How does rent and food costs compare to America, do you know?
    - benhurmarcel 6y ago
      Even with the stronger safety net, it doesn't make up for the difference compared to the US for well-paid employees (such as engineers, or tech in general). US employees are much more well-off, there's no denying that. US levels for engineers compare more to Swiss level of living. However the safety net is much more beneficial for less-paid people, at a relatively low cost for them. I only visited the US so others might be able to provide a more detailed comparison. It seems to me that rent is generally significantly higher in US cities (might be different in lower CoL areas), and groceries and other smaller budgets were slightly higher in France (restaurants, tech purchases, cars…).
      - codpiece 6y ago
        I have worked in the US and Europe, and may give a direct comparison. US healthcare and education consume a vast portion of your pay. We paid cash for our daughter's college (biomedical engineering) at a total of over $300K. That buys her freedom of choice when it comes time to take a job, get an advanced degree, etc. Her colleagues will have more than $500K USD debt hanging over their heads when you factor interest payments. The company pays for a portion of health insurance, but much of the cost is picked up by the employee, either though co-payments or deductibles. We live modestly, drive low-end cars and don't dine out often. We see our European friends taking great vacations and their children bounce in and out of college programs. We see free healthcare, mountain cottages, and other perks unavailable to us.
        benhurmarcel 6y ago
        Interesting, thank you. It seems the calculation becomes very different when you factor in the cost of a child (especially if he goes to college).
    - cosmodisk 6y ago
      Without going into numbers all I can say about US vs Europe: for people with low income,Europe is much much better. For middle class, it boils down to some difficult choices( kids, education, leisure) and is probably equal. While upper middle class or highly paid professionals have it better in the US.
    - LandR 6y ago
      I'm in Scotland, my salary is about £45-£48k. I take home about £31k. The median salary here is about £21k nationwide. I bought my home for £170k, now worth about £230k. it's a decent sized apartment in a nice area in the city where I work. For an indication of size, my living room is about 23ft by 28ft, 2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms. Some photos to show what I got for my money: https://imgur.com/gallery/6oNLRtl https://imgur.com/gallery/6oNLRtl My outgoings each month average out to around £1200k. Mortgage is under £450 a month. Healthcare is all free, university is free, prescriptions are free.
      - balfirevic 6y ago
        Did you have a large down payment? That looks like a small monthly cost for such mortgage. Or maybe the interest on such loan in Scotland is very small.
        LandR 6y ago
        My down payment was £70k, interest rate is 2.14% When I renew at end of year it shoul be around 1.1%
        balfirevic 6y ago
        Well damn, I don't think there is anything below 3.00% (3.50% more common) where I live. That's nominal - 3.5% - 4.0% is the effective interest rate. I don't know much about mortgages, so not sure if I'm missing something. Congrats on your place - it looks great!
        dahfizz 6y ago
        Is that right? I think inflation makes the effective interest rate lower than the nominal rate. You could imagine that inflation pays ~1% of your mortgage for you because each dollar that you owe is becoming less and less valuable.
        balfirevic 6y ago

pantaloony 6y ago

Notably, I doubt you could get family healthcare coverage in the US that reduced your financial risk as much as France’s does for under $25,000/yr. Even at that rate I bet your exposure’s still worse.

dahfizz 6y ago
> I doubt you could get family healthcare coverage in the US that reduced your financial risk as much as France’s does for under $25,000/yr. I'm not so sure. It looks like the average liability for a family (12 monthly premiums plus deductable) comes in at just under $23k[1]. That's the max the average family would pay. Obviously for just a single person total liability is a lot lower. So for a person like me who makes good money being an engineer, I am still better off in America where I can make a lot of money but also pay a little more in COL / healthcare stuff. [1] https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/individual-and-family/how-much-does-individual-health-insurance-cost https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/individual-and-fa...
- pantaloony 6y ago
  Wow, that’s... much cheaper than I’ve seen. In my non-coastal middling-wealth state, you’re looking at $1500/m for an HSA family plan that still leaves you with tens of thousands in risk per year, and reducing that risk gets expensive fast (often it’s even worse, and you end up guaranteed to pay more per year than you might pay if something goes wrong under one of the cheaper plans)

balfirevic 6y ago

For fun, here are the figures for Croatia (yearly take-home salary and total cost for employer, all in USD for easier comparison): Average salary (take-home): $11874 Average salary (total cost for employer): $19875 Median salary (take-home): $10225 Median salary (total cost for employer): $16526 Starting junior dev salary (take-home): $14800 Starting junior dev salary (total cost for employer): $25800 Senior dev salary (they can go higher, but that's relatively rare for local employers) (take-home): $27700 Senior dev salary (total cost for employer): $52000 VAT is 25%. Safety net is a joke. Health care is universal, but not that good. Education is mediocre at best.