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Samsung installs keylogger on its laptop computers
- motters 16y agoThe second part is more interesting, but it doesn't give any indication as to whether the keylogger was installed on a small number of internal test machines which then accidentally escaped into consumerland, or whether this is a more widespread practice. If it is widespread then Samsung are really entering a world of pain in terms of lawsuits.
- mrcharles 16y agoIt would be interesting to hear from the HN community, people with Samsung laptops, if they've had this happen, or if they check now, if this keylogger is discovered.
- dionysianstanza 16y agoCurrently on an R720 and I've no SL folder, either. I've poked around various locations on the machine and run some scans with a number of different tools, but I've discovered nothing untoward, as yet. My attestation is somewhat of an irrelevance, however, as I've no way of accurately replicating the environment in which Mr Hassan carried out his research. It looks as though I shall simply have to wait and see how this all plays out over the coming days.
- tldnr 16y agoI've got an R580, had a quick look in the Windows folder and can't see any SL folder.
- infinity 16y agoI have a Samsung Q210 Aura Seven, I could not find any folders called "SL" or any other suspicious things so far on the preinstalled Windows Vista.
- ordinary 16y agoNC10 here, nothing crazy on mine.
- biot 16y agoGiven US law enforcement's use of surveillance on individuals with certain foreign ties, in order to faithfully replicate this it might require someone named "Mohamed" unfortunately.
- po 16y agoTalk about burying the lede... And what does he mean by "After the initial set up of the laptop"? What exactly did he do? Couldn't it just mean that the security software he is using to do the scan or the media he is using is infected? I just think this sounds fishy until he's verified it with a completely different set of tools.
- codingthewheel 16y agoNot only that, but there are legit reasons to include a keylogger as part of a laptop build out. Every computer has, or should have, this kind of auditing capacity. The question is a) whether it's turned on by default and b) whether any information is being transmitted on the sly. In all likelihood, this was either some sort of mistake, or the keylogger is intended for use by the computer's owner -- not by Samsung. EDIT: Sorry for scaring people. Listen, I HATE keyloggers and other invasive software. Here: http://bit.ly/2U3iAH http://bit.ly/2U3iAH My point was that I can see a legit need for low-level auditing by whoever owns the PC. Including such a package that's turned off by default, might be better than forcing a worried parent to sift through 12 keyloggers on Google, half of which are malware, a quarter of which don't work, in order to find out if her 12-year-old is composing YouTube dances and uploading them to 4chan.
- unwind 16y agoWhy should my computer have auditing capability, without my explicit knowledge or me making the decision to put it there? Who is it good for?
- sonnekki 16y ago> Who is it good for? Someone who desires to keep track of a user's key strokes, for example a corporation. This is coming from someone who consents to monitoring every day. While I agree it is not good for the singular, non-ignorant person, I'm sure there's a massive market for "Corporate Consumers" who'd like to save a buck instead of spending effort configuring a system. About having the capability of auditing, I suppose it saves production costs to have one laptop with a switch, as opposed to two laptops with slight hardware or software differences.
- jpablo 16y agoThis in no way compares to the Sony Rootkit fiasco. Even if the keylogger is still there I'll hardly doubt that Samsung installed it on purpose.
- wladimir 16y agoHe should have analyzed the SL configuration to see where the logged keystrokes are sent. That'd have been interesting to see. Now it's just guesswork.
- Tyrannosaurs 16y agoIt's an interesting one. If it was Samsung's responsibility (big if at this stage obviously) then I'd actually be more scared if they didn't install it on purpose. I get that large corporations intentionally do bad things for money but I kind of assume that they're competent enough that they don't accidentally let their master install for a new laptop get infected with a key logger. I'm not saying that I believe them to be completely competent, just that the level of cock ups I expect from them doesn't run to this. For me if they did install it accidentally then that's worse than them installing it deliberately for some ill considered audit or support purpose.
- jpr 16y ago> I kind of assume that they're competent "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
- JoshTriplett 16y agoSufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.
- Tyrannosaurs 16y agoPossibly I should be clearer. I assume them to be broadly technically competent in so much as they won't let their master install get infected with a key logger. I'm happy to accept that they may be incompetent when it comes to making decisions about whether it would be a good idea to install a key logger for support or audit purposes.
- Derbasti 16y agoWell, if this turns out to be true, no more Samsung in my family.
- denysonique 16y agoHowever, a scan result does not mean much, a full proof would be if he found the keystrokes actually logged in some file and/or being sent to somewhere. Btw, I am typing this from a Samsung R510 laptop. Fortunetaly I don't use crappy windows. I run Gentoo Linux.
- nopassrecover 16y ago"Fortunetaly (sic) I don't use crappy windows. I run Gentoo Linux." A reasonable observation followed by a stupid effectively ad hominem attack. The reason your Linux PC is free from the Samsung keylogger (if it does exist) is only because there's little to no incentive to bother with attacking Linux users. Do you really believe Microsoft has spent billions in research and hiring the brightest minds in technology to create an inherently insecure OS, or is it more likely that the incredibly large userbase creates much greater incentives for security attacks?
- notoem 16y agoNo, the reason his computer does not have the keylogger is because he installed an operating system other than the one it came with (assuming the story is accurate). Even if he had reinstalled Windows, he would not have it.
- limmeau 16y agoUnless the BIOS knows how to install Windows keyloggers in Windows root partitions and Linux keyloggers in Linux root partitions.
- iuytghyjuyh 16y agoUnless of course he needed to install any video,network, chipset, audio, bluetooth etc drivers from Samsung's site in which case all bets are off.
- nopassrecover 16y agoSure, but this doesn't substantiate calling Windows stupid, which by itself implies fault with the OS.
- hbz 16y agoI wonder where it stores all this logged information. Despite a lot of references to the Sony rootkit, the author doesn't specifically call this a rootkit other than to say it's "completely undetectable" (not really). There's also mention of traces of the program being found in c:\windows\SL, which means its not very well hidden. More information is required.
- GiraffeNecktie 16y agoI would have expected this to show up from many different sources. The fact that only one person is reporting this makes the story somewhat suspect. Surely he's not the only Samsung owner to run a malware scan.
- westbywest 16y agoHe mentioned the models of Samsung laptops that he had access to. Perhaps someone on this HN thread could verify?
- pavel_lishin 16y ago> Surely he's not the only Samsung owner to run a malware scan. On a machine he just bought, without installing anything else? Besides, someone has to be first.
- GiraffeNecktie 16y agoHe noticed this back in February so I'd think that's a fairly long time to be the only report. A few other things bothered me about the article: the heavy handed reference to Sony's rootkit, as others noted, is inappropriate since the Sony rootkit was clearly a deliberate decision. In this case, the most we can say at this point in time is that he found a keylogger on a Samsung computer. Whether it was put there deliberately or not is unknown. Which leads to my further gripes with the headline (which flatly implies that it was deliberate), with the fact that he didn't retain the evidence but chose to write about it (which means noone can verify his findings), and with his apparent lack of curiousity about whether the keylogger was operational and where it might be sending its data.
- capstone 16y agoOn March 1, 2011, I called and logged incident 2101163379 with Samsung Support. ... The supervisor confirmed that Samsung did knowingly put this software on the laptop to "monitor the performance of the machine and to find out how it is being used."
- jgrahamc 16y agoMohamed Hassan, MSIA, CISSP, CISA graduated from the Master of Science in Information Assurance (MSIA) program from Norwich University in 2009 Really bad way to start an article. Who cares about all these qualifications? Did he find a key logger and how did Samsung respond? Unfortunately, they have decided to make us wait for the response. That seems really lame IMHO.
- Lost_BiomedE 16y agoI think it means that the author does/did not expect you to be the target audience. To you, an appeal to authority does not mean much, but for someone who does not have much technological knowledge, it may have some weight. Maybe they were trying to pull views from yahoo finance or something?
- jobu 16y agoPerhaps he wasn't getting any response from Samsung, and posted this to prod them into action. Still this seems like a really terrible way to end an article: In the next article, Mr Hassan discusses how Samsung responded to his discovery.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- yalogin 16y agoIsn't networkworld targeted towards tech oriented people?
- dkarl 16y agoIt was mentioned because the author of the column (M.E. Kabay) used to be a director of the same program at Norwich University that Hassan got his master's from, and as he said, "it is a pleasure to collaborate with an alumnus." Basically it's a shout-out to the university.
- GiraffeNecktie 16y agoSomewhat ironic now that the whole story turns out, not only to be false, but the result of stunningly inept research. Yeay Norwich!
- piaskal 16y agoIf it's true I wonder if Samsung actually does that deliberately or were their production systems hit by some malware.
- lell 16y agoIt's possible --- and the customer service manager he was talking to just said anything to get off the phone, even if it meant lying about something he didn't understand. Maybe he didn't even realize it would paint his company in a bad light.
- albedoa 16y agoThe findings are false-positive proof since I have used the tool that discovered it for six years now and I am yet to see it misidentify an item throughout the years. Thus, it is false-positive proof? Why wouldn't he test it against other tools? Why wouldn't he try to find out as much about this as you can before writing an accusatory article? Further, why is he running a full-system security scan on a fresh installation of Windows? Is that normal? If this is a genuine accusation of wrongdoing, then I think that the actual sequence of events and his entire methodology should be disclosed.
- drzaiusapelord 16y agoWow, that's a lot of faith in the AV industry and definition based AV. Perhaps Mr. Security Consultant should realize the limitations of his tools and the importance of doing random samples. He seriously saw this on one laptop and is accusing Samsung of a conspiracy? Not that I put anything above big multinational companies, but some due dilligance would be nice. I guess its all about selling ad impressions. Facts, accuracy, and responsibility come last.
- capstone 16y agoHe seriously saw this on one laptop and is accusing Samsung of a conspiracy? He saw it on TWO laptops. Not that I put anything above big multinational companies, but some due dilligance would be nice. He called Samsung to report the issue and had Samsung supervisor confirm that keyloggers are knowingly installed on Samsung laptops in order to monitor usage.
- danielsoneg 16y agoHe saw it on TWO laptops. Using the same methodology and the same software - granted, it's "false-positive proof", but there are variables here he didn't account for. Methodology matters. Samsung supervisor No, Samsung SUPPORT supervisor. I'm comfortable going out on a limb and hypothesizing that: A) The Samsung Support Supervisor knew exactly as much about the situation as the author - that is, Nothing. He called telephone support, not the engineering department. B) It's entirely possible said supervisor bullshitted something that sounded plausible and positive. Again, it's a call center support supervisor, not a press release or any sort of official statement by the company. The author has an extremely small sample, a very small amount of extremely limited evidence, and nothing that could be called a credible statement from Samsung. IF Samsung is knowingly doing this it's a terrible policy and a serious problem. IF it's for the reason the supervisor said, it's Incredibly bad policy. IF the article is true, it's possibly criminal. We don't have enough evidence to claim that yet, and until more testing is done and Samsung makes a statement, it's not an Incident, it's a curious event that certainly calls for further investigation.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- motters 16y agoIt's a disappointing cliff-hanger ending. Without more information it's impossible to say whether this is just some malware accident or a deliberate policy by Samsung. I'm inclined to think that the former situation is more likely.
- donohoe 16y agoThe link to the part where someone from Samsung confirms they installed the keylogger so they could lern how people use the machines.
- motters 16y agoSecond part http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/sec/2011/040411sec1.html http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/sec/2011/040411sec1....
- iuytghyjuyh 16y agoSo if youy use a Samsung machine in a lawyers office, or in a classified role or anywhere subject to HIPA presumably you should switch brands - or face a negligence charge? Could be an expensive mistake on Samsung's part - especially if somebody decides that lawyers, governemnt, hospitals also shouldn't use any Samsung phones, copiers, printers etc 'just in case'
- loganlinn 16y agoIs there not a hole in this argument? Why wouldn't he first question the store at which he bought both of these Samsung laptops? This isn't solid evidence that the source of the keylogger is from the hardware manufacturer and is borderline defamation.
- darkmethod 16y agoThe following line from the article in question leads me to believe that he did not purchase the second laptop from the same store. "I returned that laptop to the store where I bought it and bought a higher Samsung model (R540) from another store." I will wait for confirmation/proof in either direction before drawing any conclusion regarding possible "defamation" on the authors part.
- loganlinn 16y agoIndeed, we shouldn't jump to any conclusions. My point was that the author appears to already have, especially given the article's title. There are lots of situations that could explain to origin of the malware (reseller, pre-installed bloatware, etc), but the author chose one.
- Bo102010 16y agoThis strikes me as dubious at best. I think a more likely explanation is that his detection software is flagging anything with the path "c:\windows\SL" as malware. He says "This key logger is completely undetectable," which is clearly untrue (he has allegedly detected it). If it's logging his keystrokes, it's either storing them locally or sending them off somewhere else, or both. If he's as qualified as he says, he should be able to find out which (find a file that increases in size after a lot of keystrokes, use Wireshark...).
- mmazing 16y agoYeah, except Samsung admitted that they installed it in the followup article.
- Bo102010 16y agoI stand corrected, and should have read the followup article. I don't think the Samsung "confirmation" brings me to 50% confidence that Samsung actually was logging and capturing people's keystrokes, though. I would still like to see what the keylogger is actually doing - storing, transmitting, what?
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- bennysaurus 16y agoUh no they didn't, this guy has said this is what he was told on a phone call. Samsung has not released a public statement saying this is what they actually do. Without confirmation from anyone else that has a Samsung laptop (have just checked my brother's bought 2 months ago and found nothing) this really should be taken with a grain of salt.
- BrandonM 16y ago> I think a more likely explanation is that his detection software is flagging anything with the path "c:\windows\SL" as malware. "SL" stands for "Samsung Laptop," some manufacturer-specific software?
- 16s 16y agoOff-topic: I wrote a very primitive passive keystroke logger a few years ago (just to demonstrate how they work). I still have the source code and folks email me about it often: https://github.com/16s/16k https://github.com/16s/16k My example is really trivial and it only works on Windows, but it works well and demonstrates the concept of passive keystroke logging. Unlike system wide hooks, passive logging just monitors the key states. Sort of like when you are playing a video game and press the 'P' key. The game pauses because it's monitoring the P key's state (up or down) and can tell when it changes. Extend that concept to the entire keyboard and you have a passive keystroke logger. Passive loggers are more challenging to detect as well and they run just fine as a normal user (no need to be root).
- getsat 16y agoJust use SetWindowsHookEx() with WH_KEYBOARD_LL. Here's some ancient proof of concept code I wrote for detecting user activity (keyboard and mouse): https://gist.github.com/a95f198292c9e453e054 https://gist.github.com/a95f198292c9e453e054 This was originally to be used with malware that needs to run when the user is away from their workstation. You can access p->vkCode in KeyboardProc() to see which keys are pressed. One interesting thing to note is that if you remove the invisible window/message pumping loop, the program behaves erratically when processing the low-level inputs. I never looked into this.
- iuguy 16y agoThis is really really easy to detect for malware analysts. One of the first things you look for in memory on a compromised system is hooking. Most rootkits use hooks at different levels to hide or monitor things. Strangely, on a clean system most hooks tend to be from the Antivirus (usually hooking filesystem calls for on demand scans).
- getsat 16y agoDefinitely. Any amateur effort will generally involve SetWindowsHookEx() + DLL injection to capture keystrokes. The intention was to move this up to ring 0 eventually, but I decided to work on more lucrative things instead.
- derrida 16y agoSo, has ANYONE verified this independently yet?
- rheide 16y agoCould be any number of reasons for this. The store may have messed up and had its computers infected by a virus. Or Samsung itself. Or user error, like other people pointed out already. What I would be interested to know is if the logger actually phones home, and if so, to where. That would give fairly conclusive proof if Samsung did it or someone else. If it's just logging stuff locally then what's the point? Maybe Samsung (if Samsung is indeed the culrpit) could claim it's for tech support reasons?
- jedsmith 16y agoAm I the only one that wipes the OEM operating system as soon as I buy a computer? Even if I'm putting Windows right back on it? I started doing it because of the crap they bundle in there, but this seems like an unintended good reason to do so as well.
- iuytghyjuyh 16y agoBut then you have to go the laptop makers site for any extra drivers - how do you know that they don't have the keylogger in them? Although Intel's own drivers now work better for most embedded Intel chipsets than the crap the laptop maker puts out
- wewyor 16y agoThe only problem is that now you have to find a way to download the iso's from microsofts' servers to do it now because most laptop manufacturers only give recovery media that gives you all the crapware when you reinstall. It wasn't that long ago that you got actual windows install media when you bought a computer.
- Silhouette 16y ago> It wasn't that long ago that you got actual windows install media when you bought a computer. Oh, I'm afraid that was actually quite a long time ago. However, the last time I checked, Microsoft did impose a condition that mostly affected laptop manufacturers, such that they were required to provide any genuine Windows customer with real Windows media on request, rather than just some not-quite-real-Windows recovery media. Is this no longer the case? If that is still a requirement for installing OEM Windows on laptops for sale, maybe a campaign where a significant fraction of Samsung laptop customers suddenly started demanding real media would attract the attention of whatever fool thought this was a good idea. This is not mutually exclusive with an expensive class action lawsuit, of course. }:-)
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- anon1385 16y agohttp://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/sec/2011/040411sec1.html http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/sec/2011/040411sec1.... Samsung responds to installation of keylogger on its laptop computers The supervisor who spoke with me was not sure how this software ended up in the new laptop thus put me on hold. He confirmed that yes, Samsung did knowingly put this software on the laptop to, as he put it, "monitor the performance of the machine and to find out how it is being used." In other words, Samsung wanted to gather usage data without obtaining consent from laptop owners. […] We contacted three public relations officers for Samsung for comment about this issue and gave them a week to send us their comments. No one from the company replied.
- blinkingled 16y agoThank heavens this was software based - now imagine if they shipped keyboard firmware with a built in keylogger! Who knows, may be some do - that would be nearly impossible to detect as they can encrypt it. On a related note - My bank requires me to use a on-screen virtual keyboard to log into the online account. The keys of this virtual keyboard are randomly rearranged every time it is invoked. That could certainly beat keyloggers.
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- JakeSc 16y agoWhich bank? That is very smart. Is the virtual keyboard built into the website (i.e., Javascript)?
- blinkingled 16y agoCitibank - you can try it here - http://www.online.citibank.co.in/ http://www.online.citibank.co.in/ . AFAICT it is JavaScript based - don't see any plugin used on the login site.
- brown9-2 16y agoING Direct has something similar for entering your PIN.
- darren_ 16y agoYou'd think so, but actually there exist keyloggers that take screenshots on mouseclicks, precisely to bypass this.
- blinkingled 16y agoOf course :) On the other hand, security is about putting as many deterrents as practically possible - nothing can be 100% secure. So to that extent it is still better to have measures like on screen keyboard than not. And then even if you somehow perfected the on-screen keyboard to not give out screenshots - there is always browser based malware that can send your session or creds to the attacker without bothering about keylogging!
- jgrahamc 16y agoSamsung's response is here: http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/sec/2011/040411sec1.html http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/sec/2011/040411sec1....
- kwis 16y agoWell, this rules out my plan to buy a Series 9 for travel. Hopefully the supervisor he talked to was just blowing smoke and trying to get him to go away. If this is legitimately approved by Samsung, somebody needs their head examined. Or failing that, they should loan me their laptop after they've done some banking and online shopping on it.
- pbhjpbhj 16y agoThat's kinda mind blowing. Use of such a laptop in the UK would appear to contravene the Computer Misuse Act (on at least a count of unauthorised computer access), if you have a Samsung with this software I suggest you hire a good lawyer and shop around for investment opportunities for your payout. What are the chances that Samsung have also breached government secrets acts with this in several countries!?
- jedsmith 16y agoWhat's mind blowing is that anybody believes what a support department says.
- pbhjpbhj 16y agoI'm trusting the report here but it was at least second level and they referred somewhere for help with the query so it appears it was 3rd level support. Certainly attributable to the company in such a case.
- narrator 16y agoThis isn't the first time Samsung did this kind of thing. On their android phones, they have a system called CarrierIQ that is deeply embedded into the system and can monitor practically all aspects of phone usage. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=11763089 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=11763089
- tikna 16y agoIf you think logically, why they would even do that? What can they get out of logged data. Can you give me the answer? I think you are exaggerating this thing too much.
- bbommarito 16y agoLet me pull on a conspiracy theorists hat here, and give one possible reason: When you purchase a laptop, at least in my experience, it records the serial number of the laptop purchased. Now, generally you don't purchase a laptop in cash (At least in the states, but that really has to do with overzealous cops who think anything over a hundred dollars is drug money), you use a credit/check card. What this means is at checkout they have an address, and name (From the card) and a serial number. You go home, and type away, log in to Facebook, do whatever you normally do, all the while keylogger is running away in the background. NSA walks over to Samsung and says "Hey, can we get those keylogger results? Great, here's your million dollars", takes those, then sees that John Doe is searching for poison on Google. They run off, and arrest him. Basically, that information would be NSA's wetdream. Is this true? Probably not, but it's one possible motive.
- unreal37 16y agoI am skeptical this is true. Some phone tech support guy overseas is not official confirmation of official policy. I would like to see more widespread confirmation ('happened to me too!') before people start dumping on Samsung. Also missing, evidence it was turned installed and running at bootup, evidence it was sending information anywhere. It should be fairly easy to use the laptop, connect to the internet, and see what data is sent to what server, owned by whom. THAT is evidence. These are just random unimportant files in some random directory until then.
- helmut_hed 16y agoHere's a plausible scenario under which Samsung is innocent: 1) Starlogger is part of the security software Hassan installed, and 2) The Samsung person he reached didn't know what he was talking about I have no idea if this is really what happened, but consider: Hassan says After the initial set up of the laptop, I installed licensed commercial security software and then ran a full system scan before installing any other software. This could simply be an embarrassing mistake, compounded by the ignorance of some call center person... I'm waiting for confirmation from others with Samsung systems.
- mulander 16y agoI own a HP laptop which recently had its mother board replaced. The machine came with an OEM installation of MS Windows Vista - I didn't reinstall / remove but I did lock out and changed the password for the 'Administrator' account. To my surprise when the laptop came back from repair (official HP on warranty repair) the Administrator account was unlocked and the recent activity on that account indicated that video files were being run recently from it. I assume that they must have a way to unlock the account I just hope it's not a full time remote control like mentioned in this article. You can be sure of one thing - I will never buy from HP again.
- MichaelGG 16y agoYou realise you can unlock/reset passwords just by booting a CD? Locked is just a small setting in a file on disk. As far as playing video files, that seems like it might have been part of testing - making sure it can handle a tiny bit of stress.
- mulander 16y agoBy booting an OS from a CD - yes I knew about this. I just hope it isn't a built in 'unlock' utility. If that was the case then OK. I also understand running things to check if they work - that's why I didn't make a problem out of it. I am not OK in changing/running things on the machine without contacting the owner. This makes a user uncomfortable.
- bigohms 16y agoDoes this mean a Samsung exec will get some jail time just like the Utah University student who did the same thing and changed his grades? http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070107/ai_n17107665/ http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070107/ai_...
- azal 16y agoIt sucks when companies start to impose crapware on consumers and defend it as useful.
- westbywest 16y ago"The statements that Samsung installs keylogger on R525 and R540 laptop computers are false. "After investigating into this matter, it was found that the software installed was in fact Vipre, not the commerical keylogger called StarLogger. The confusion arose because Microsoft's Live Application multi-language support folder, 'SL' folder, was mistaken for StarLogger "(Live Application is Microsoft's application which provides messenger, email, video, photo gallery functions. Depending on the language, under C:\windows folders 'SL' for Slovak, 'KO' for Korean, 'EN' for English are created.)" http://www.samsungtomorrow.com/1071 http://www.samsungtomorrow.com/1071
- tikna 16y agoI am trying to find "Mohamed Hassan" on Internet. Now there is a doubt in my mind that he is even a real person?
- mooky 16y agoOne user reporting an incident does not a story make. Lazy journalism. Also: a possible publicity attack from someone who has just started up a security consultancy... But this could rebound on him due to his EXTREMELY sloppy work and total lack of forensic skill.