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For context: I'm an American who's currently working as a software engineer in France (for a French company). I agree that engineering salaries are much higher

by mroset 6y ago

For context: I'm an American who's currently working as a software engineer in France (for a French company). I agree that engineering salaries are much higher in the US than in Europe and other non-US countries, however it's worth considering that there are additional expenses to hiring in other countries. My french salary is ~30-40% lower than I was making in the US. However, my cost to my employer is nearly as high. Employer taxes are much higher, my company is required to reimburse my transit and all-but-obligated to cover lunch as well. Certainly, many US software companies do some/all of that, but not all. And beyond those pure costs, there are more liabilities to the employer. For instance, if they want to fire me, they're legally on the hook for four months of severance. And, I get ~7 weeks of combined vacation time and "comp time" (based on the fact that I work more than 35 hours a week). In the US, I got 2-3 weeks. I don't have exact numbers, and I don't disagree that there are potentially savings to be had, but I don't think it's nearly as clear cut that you could get anything close to twice as many developers.

benhurmarcel 6y ago
Here is an official simulator for France: https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net It's not 100% accurate (the exact amounts depend on many variables) but gives a good idea. For example, a cost to the employer of USD 100k (87460€/year) gives a before-taxes salary of USD 70.5k, and a salary after all taxes of USD 47k.
- dahfizz 6y ago
  > before-taxes salary of USD 70.5k, and a salary after all taxes of USD 47k. What!? That's over 30% of your income gone, and for a relatively average income. That's not even counting VAT and other taxes.... No wonder there's so much "free" stuff in Europe.
  - benhurmarcel 6y ago
    €61k before taxes isn't really a relatively average income in France. A junior engineer (with a Masters) starts around €35k ($40k) before-taxes. Country-wide median salary is €28k ($32k). But across all those salaries it doesn't change the fact that around 45~55% of the employer's cost isn't going to the employee. And yes, taxes and cotisations are very high. On the other hand they cover most higher costs and risks in life (education, health, basic retirement…).
    - dahfizz 6y ago
      Isn't $70.5k USD around €61k EUR?
      - benhurmarcel 6y ago
        You're right, I mixed up. I edit it. Still, €61k isn't an average salary. An engineer reaches that after about 10-15 years (from personal experience and some statistics I have access to). It's double the national median.
        dahfizz 6y ago
        Wow, that's just crazy to me. It makes sense with the much stronger safety net, it's just a shock. How does rent and food costs compare to America, do you know?
        benhurmarcel 6y ago
        Even with the stronger safety net, it doesn't make up for the difference compared to the US for well-paid employees (such as engineers, or tech in general). US employees are much more well-off, there's no denying that. US levels for engineers compare more to Swiss level of living. However the safety net is much more beneficial for less-paid people, at a relatively low cost for them. I only visited the US so others might be able to provide a more detailed comparison. It seems to me that rent is generally significantly higher in US cities (might be different in lower CoL areas), and groceries and other smaller budgets were slightly higher in France (restaurants, tech purchases, cars…).
        codpiece 6y ago
        I have worked in the US and Europe, and may give a direct comparison. US healthcare and education consume a vast portion of your pay. We paid cash for our daughter's college (biomedical engineering) at a total of over $300K. That buys her freedom of choice when it comes time to take a job, get an advanced degree, etc. Her colleagues will have more than $500K USD debt hanging over their heads when you factor interest payments. The company pays for a portion of health insurance, but much of the cost is picked up by the employee, either though co-payments or deductibles. We live modestly, drive low-end cars and don't dine out often. We see our European friends taking great vacations and their children bounce in and out of college programs. We see free healthcare, mountain cottages, and other perks unavailable to us.
  - pantaloony 6y ago
    Notably, I doubt you could get family healthcare coverage in the US that reduced your financial risk as much as France’s does for under $25,000/yr. Even at that rate I bet your exposure’s still worse.
    - dahfizz 6y ago
      > I doubt you could get family healthcare coverage in the US that reduced your financial risk as much as France’s does for under $25,000/yr. I'm not so sure. It looks like the average liability for a family (12 monthly premiums plus deductable) comes in at just under $23k[1]. That's the max the average family would pay. Obviously for just a single person total liability is a lot lower. So for a person like me who makes good money being an engineer, I am still better off in America where I can make a lot of money but also pay a little more in COL / healthcare stuff. [1] https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/individual-and-family/how-much-does-individual-health-insurance-cost https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/individual-and-fa...
      - pantaloony 6y ago
        Wow, that’s... much cheaper than I’ve seen. In my non-coastal middling-wealth state, you’re looking at $1500/m for an HSA family plan that still leaves you with tens of thousands in risk per year, and reducing that risk gets expensive fast (often it’s even worse, and you end up guaranteed to pay more per year than you might pay if something goes wrong under one of the cheaper plans)
  - balfirevic 6y ago
    For fun, here are the figures for Croatia (yearly take-home salary and total cost for employer, all in USD for easier comparison): Average salary (take-home): $11874 Average salary (total cost for employer): $19875 Median salary (take-home): $10225 Median salary (total cost for employer): $16526 Starting junior dev salary (take-home): $14800 Starting junior dev salary (total cost for employer): $25800 Senior dev salary (they can go higher, but that's relatively rare for local employers) (take-home): $27700 Senior dev salary (total cost for employer): $52000 VAT is 25%. Safety net is a joke. Health care is universal, but not that good. Education is mediocre at best.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

by mroset 6y ago

benhurmarcel 6y ago

Here is an official simulator for France: https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net It's not 100% accurate (the exact amounts depend on many variables) but gives a good idea. For example, a cost to the employer of USD 100k (87460€/year) gives a before-taxes salary of USD 70.5k, and a salary after all taxes of USD 47k.

dahfizz 6y ago
> before-taxes salary of USD 70.5k, and a salary after all taxes of USD 47k. What!? That's over 30% of your income gone, and for a relatively average income. That's not even counting VAT and other taxes.... No wonder there's so much "free" stuff in Europe.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  €61k before taxes isn't really a relatively average income in France. A junior engineer (with a Masters) starts around €35k ($40k) before-taxes. Country-wide median salary is €28k ($32k). But across all those salaries it doesn't change the fact that around 45~55% of the employer's cost isn't going to the employee. And yes, taxes and cotisations are very high. On the other hand they cover most higher costs and risks in life (education, health, basic retirement…).
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    Isn't $70.5k USD around €61k EUR?
    - benhurmarcel 6y ago
      You're right, I mixed up. I edit it. Still, €61k isn't an average salary. An engineer reaches that after about 10-15 years (from personal experience and some statistics I have access to). It's double the national median.
      - dahfizz 6y ago
        Wow, that's just crazy to me. It makes sense with the much stronger safety net, it's just a shock. How does rent and food costs compare to America, do you know?
        benhurmarcel 6y ago
        Even with the stronger safety net, it doesn't make up for the difference compared to the US for well-paid employees (such as engineers, or tech in general). US employees are much more well-off, there's no denying that. US levels for engineers compare more to Swiss level of living. However the safety net is much more beneficial for less-paid people, at a relatively low cost for them. I only visited the US so others might be able to provide a more detailed comparison. It seems to me that rent is generally significantly higher in US cities (might be different in lower CoL areas), and groceries and other smaller budgets were slightly higher in France (restaurants, tech purchases, cars…).
        codpiece 6y ago
        I have worked in the US and Europe, and may give a direct comparison. US healthcare and education consume a vast portion of your pay. We paid cash for our daughter's college (biomedical engineering) at a total of over $300K. That buys her freedom of choice when it comes time to take a job, get an advanced degree, etc. Her colleagues will have more than $500K USD debt hanging over their heads when you factor interest payments. The company pays for a portion of health insurance, but much of the cost is picked up by the employee, either though co-payments or deductibles. We live modestly, drive low-end cars and don't dine out often. We see our European friends taking great vacations and their children bounce in and out of college programs. We see free healthcare, mountain cottages, and other perks unavailable to us.
- pantaloony 6y ago
  Notably, I doubt you could get family healthcare coverage in the US that reduced your financial risk as much as France’s does for under $25,000/yr. Even at that rate I bet your exposure’s still worse.
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    > I doubt you could get family healthcare coverage in the US that reduced your financial risk as much as France’s does for under $25,000/yr. I'm not so sure. It looks like the average liability for a family (12 monthly premiums plus deductable) comes in at just under $23k[1]. That's the max the average family would pay. Obviously for just a single person total liability is a lot lower. So for a person like me who makes good money being an engineer, I am still better off in America where I can make a lot of money but also pay a little more in COL / healthcare stuff. [1] https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/individual-and-family/how-much-does-individual-health-insurance-cost https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/individual-and-fa...
    - pantaloony 6y ago
      Wow, that’s... much cheaper than I’ve seen. In my non-coastal middling-wealth state, you’re looking at $1500/m for an HSA family plan that still leaves you with tens of thousands in risk per year, and reducing that risk gets expensive fast (often it’s even worse, and you end up guaranteed to pay more per year than you might pay if something goes wrong under one of the cheaper plans)
- balfirevic 6y ago
  For fun, here are the figures for Croatia (yearly take-home salary and total cost for employer, all in USD for easier comparison): Average salary (take-home): $11874 Average salary (total cost for employer): $19875 Median salary (take-home): $10225 Median salary (total cost for employer): $16526 Starting junior dev salary (take-home): $14800 Starting junior dev salary (total cost for employer): $25800 Senior dev salary (they can go higher, but that's relatively rare for local employers) (take-home): $27700 Senior dev salary (total cost for employer): $52000 VAT is 25%. Safety net is a joke. Health care is universal, but not that good. Education is mediocre at best.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]