10 ms·

I agree, but in the specific case of Netflix, people are let go all the time, and managers have a lot of authority to make the decision to fire someone. Tenure

I agree, but in the specific case of Netflix, people are let go all the time, and managers have a lot of authority to make the decision to fire someone. Tenure doesn't matter, either -- you could work there for 6 years and end up getting fired when you get a new manager or the existing one decides you're phoning it in.

xvector 6y ago
That's a massive amount of trust placed in managers. I've had asshole managers before that didn't have this much power thanks to company structure. Honestly I would never work at a place like this. Maybe it's lean and efficient for the company, but it definitely doesn't sound fun for the employee.
- jedberg 6y ago
  It's not as bad as it sounds. Yes, it certainly happens and it sucks for the good person that it happens to. But managers like that don't last very long. When you get let go, they ask in the exit interview if you were warned, if your manager gave you any feedback leading up to it, etc. And then they follow up if the person says, "it was a total shock". I've definitely seen managers make some bad firing decisions, but they were let go soon afterwards. Word gets around quickly to their manager that they let go someone who was a strong contributor.
  - johnm 6y ago
    So then what was the behavior after the bad manager was let go? Did they actually reach out to those who were let go? The toxic effects of bad managers is way larger than ICs.
    - jedberg 6y ago
      In some cases the fired people were invited back, but usually if they were good they already had another job.
      - brabel 6y ago
        That supposes that good people get good jobs easily. Given the stupidity of the interview system and my own experience trying to get a better job after working my ass off on improving myself, I think this is really not guaranteed to be the case.
  - johnm 6y ago
    Is there mobility so people can leave bad managers and move to other teams easily (i.e., vote with their feet) rather than being stuck under bad managers and getting screwed this way?
    - jedberg 6y ago
      Yes, it's easy to change teams. You just find a new manager and ask if they have openings. You don't want to leave your old team high and dry, but the only requirement was the new manager saying yes. Obviously in reality there were most likely some negotiations amongst the managers, as the new manager wouldn't want to get a reputation for stealing people. But I saw people change teams pretty regularly. Not just because of bad managers, but because they just wanted a new challenge.
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    When you get let go, they ask in the exit interview if you were warned Why would anyone give any kind of useful information in the exit interview? The only one who benefits is the company, they need to cover their back in case a suit over harassment comes up. If anyone wants revenge over poor management, keep silent, let the fellow continue to lose the company money and set them up for a lawsuit. HR is not on your side. The company is not on your side. The union would be, but in software we can't have that.
    - jedberg 6y ago
      That's a very cynical view. While the company may not be on your side, helping your coworkers by proving feedback about bad management is a good thing. Also, why would you want the company to fail? Just because they have one bad manager? My friends still work there, and if you have stock options, you even have a financial interest in the continued success of the company. I see no downside in providing truthful feedback during an exit interview. Sure, it won't help you, but it helps everyone else that's still there.
      - HarryHirsch 6y ago
        The company only looks out for itself and will support you only when it benefits. It will never benefit from supporting an ex-employee that left on bad terms, and the ex-employee will never benefit either from supporting it. So why bother, there is no rational reason. The bond to co-workers at a former workplace is strange and tenuous - actually it goes the other way around, they reach out to you when they want to improve their situation. Let them ask you when they want out, then offer a hand.
        jedberg 6y ago
        > and the ex-employee will never benefit either from supporting it. Like I said, even when you get fired, you still have stock options. So you do in fact benefit by helping the company when you're leaving. > The bond to co-workers at a former workplace is strange and tenuous - actually it goes the other way around, they reach out to you when they want to improve their situation. Let them ask you when they want out, then offer a hand. Why not offer them help when they don't ask, in the form of giving feedback to HR? Why do they need to ask? Why can't I be altruistic and help just because? I'll say this -- you're entitled to your opinion, but I really hope I never work with or for someone who shares your outlook. And I especially hope I never manage someone with your outlook. Whatever happened to "we're all in this together"?
  - normalnorm 6y ago
    > When you get let go I'm sorry for going a bit offtopic, but I have noticed this weird linguistic contortion "get let go" often. Why the euphemisms? You get fired. It doesn't hurt to speak plainly. This "let go" expression seems weirdly childish, like how people say that someone "passed on" to avoid confronting the hard reality of death. And I'm not picking on you, I know that almost everyone talks like this now.
    - jedberg 6y ago
      Well at Netflix in particular, there is no real difference between being fired and being laid off, since both come with the same severance and benefits. So it makes sense to use a generic term. In most cases you use the generic term to avoid liability. Saying someone was fired could be libelous/slanderous.
      - normalnorm 6y ago
        Interesting point, but in most cases people say it when talking about themselves (I was let go) or in the hypothetical, as was the case here with OP: "When you get let go". So no risk of liability, there must be some other explanation.
        jedberg 6y ago
        There is still a liability when talking about oneself. Sometimes when someone is fired they have to sign a non-disparagement agreement to get their severance. Saying you were fired could be considered disparaging.
        normalnorm 6y ago
        > Saying you were fired could be considered disparaging. I'm sorry, but I highly doubt that this is the case.
      - burntoutfire 6y ago
        The "let go" is total corporate newspeak. You can't "let" go someone who didn't ask to go nor doesn't want to. You can only force him to go (by firing him).
  - kingbirdy 6y ago
    That still sounds pretty bad. The person who fired you getting fired doesn't get you your job back.
    - jedberg 6y ago
      No it doesn't, but do you think at other companies people don't get fired for bad reasons?
      - kingbirdy 6y ago
        Of course people get fired at other companies, but that's whataboutism - it's bad no matter where it happens.
        aidenn0 6y ago
        It's not whataboutism when you are comparing two things. Jed is suggesting one company culture is superior to another. The fact that it doesn't solve a problem that the other also doesn't solve is non-sequitor in such a discussion.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - wolco 6y ago
    Exit interviewers are for those who quit. Never seen a firing exit interview.
    - jedberg 6y ago
      At Netflix everyone gets an exit interview, no matter the reason for leaving.
      - wolco 6y ago
        How does it physically happen? Usually you are called into a meeting. Told your services are no longer required. Then you are given career resource support / paperwork with an offer and helped off the property. At what point is there a chance for an exit interview? After they first fire you, you are in shock.
        tharkun_ 6y ago
        Sooo American. I mean sure if they fire you, that's how it goes usually but even the other way around people leave and are gone in two weeks and there's no way you get a replacement quick enough to have whoever leaves train them. And Co workers are usually told on the day. Such BS. There are more civil ways where both sides give a couple months notice and giving notice doesn't mean you get escorted off the property. It means you'll still do your job for a couple months, maybe even train a replacement.
        jedberg 6y ago
        After the paperwork, if you want to.
        watwut 6y ago
        In companies I worked for, people never left like that. They would be talked to and then continued going to work although significantly less motivated. The firing on spot must have big reason like not showing up or drinking. American companies do that thing where they fire you, you have to leave instantly and then they pay you salary for the time you would be still going to work in any normal company. The rest of team spends time guessing the situation, trying to contact you to figure out what happened and generally is disturbed.
  - shanemhansen 6y ago
    > When you get let go, they ask in the exit interview if you were warned, if your manager gave you any feedback leading up to it, etc. And then they follow up if the person says, "it was a total shock". I've definitely seen managers make some bad firing decisions, but they were let go soon afterwards. I guess "the firings will continue until morale improves?"
- traskjd 6y ago
  I feel like it has to be this way. You can’t both want to be trusted and enjoy the benefits of that autonomy and then expect others to not have that trust an autonomy. In many ways it shows it’s properly baked into the culture and not just some nice sound bite to attract engineering talent.
- derefr 6y ago
  In this sort of setup, you'd expect there to be a chance of asshole managers; but you'd also expect that those asshole managers would be quickly fired by their non-asshole managers. Being stuck under an asshole would only happen if you were in reality stuck under a whole chain of assholes, leading all the way to the top. And if that was true, the company would be in the middle of imploding anyway.
  - andrewem 6y ago
    This may sound flippant, but it's not: you mean like Uber. (See eg Susan Fowler's book Whistleblower.)
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  On the other hand, I'm sure those bad managers get the natural result of their management much quicker and more visibly when there is no bureaucractic structure protecting them from themselves.
- garfieldnate 6y ago
  I have to agree; it's one thing to empower leaders to enact their vision. It's another to give them carte blanch to screw over the people they are supposed to be leaders to. Firing is serious, and it doesn't just affect someone's work life.
jedberg 6y ago
I think the number of people that are let go is overexaggerated. But yes, it is easy to fire and hire. The two go hand in hand.
- remote_phone 6y ago
  My coworker was a product manager at Netflix and she said in a 2 year period she saw at least 20 engineers get fired. That seems pretty high to me.
  - yibg 6y ago
    Probably depends on team and circumstances. In my ~3 years there I've only seen a handful of engineers I interact with (which was a lot) get fired.
    - user5994461 6y ago
      That's a huge amount. I remember working in a large company with easily a hundred people over the years. I'd say there were only 2 employees that were fireable materials.
      - jedberg 6y ago
        Yeah but how hard was it to hire new people? There is a direct correlation. It's super easy to hire people at Netflix. It is literally just up to the hiring manager. The flip side is that it is also easy to fire, so you can quickly correct any mistakes you may have made in hiring. This of course means more churn. But to someone working there, this felt like a good thing. It means you didn't have people just biding their time like you see in most big companies. Never once did I think, "how does that person still have a job?" Unlike the other big companies I've worked for, where there is always at least one person who you know is just floating as long as they can and getting away with it.
        user5994461 6y ago
C1sc0cat 6y ago
Even a first line manager can fire? are there no hr processes
- jedberg 6y ago
  There is no HR process. In reality you've already had multiple discussions with HR and your manager if you're going to get fired, but it isn't required.

xvector 6y ago

That's a massive amount of trust placed in managers. I've had asshole managers before that didn't have this much power thanks to company structure. Honestly I would never work at a place like this. Maybe it's lean and efficient for the company, but it definitely doesn't sound fun for the employee.

jedberg 6y ago
It's not as bad as it sounds. Yes, it certainly happens and it sucks for the good person that it happens to. But managers like that don't last very long. When you get let go, they ask in the exit interview if you were warned, if your manager gave you any feedback leading up to it, etc. And then they follow up if the person says, "it was a total shock". I've definitely seen managers make some bad firing decisions, but they were let go soon afterwards. Word gets around quickly to their manager that they let go someone who was a strong contributor.
- johnm 6y ago
  So then what was the behavior after the bad manager was let go? Did they actually reach out to those who were let go? The toxic effects of bad managers is way larger than ICs.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    In some cases the fired people were invited back, but usually if they were good they already had another job.
    - brabel 6y ago
      That supposes that good people get good jobs easily. Given the stupidity of the interview system and my own experience trying to get a better job after working my ass off on improving myself, I think this is really not guaranteed to be the case.
- johnm 6y ago
  Is there mobility so people can leave bad managers and move to other teams easily (i.e., vote with their feet) rather than being stuck under bad managers and getting screwed this way?
  - jedberg 6y ago
    Yes, it's easy to change teams. You just find a new manager and ask if they have openings. You don't want to leave your old team high and dry, but the only requirement was the new manager saying yes. Obviously in reality there were most likely some negotiations amongst the managers, as the new manager wouldn't want to get a reputation for stealing people. But I saw people change teams pretty regularly. Not just because of bad managers, but because they just wanted a new challenge.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  When you get let go, they ask in the exit interview if you were warned Why would anyone give any kind of useful information in the exit interview? The only one who benefits is the company, they need to cover their back in case a suit over harassment comes up. If anyone wants revenge over poor management, keep silent, let the fellow continue to lose the company money and set them up for a lawsuit. HR is not on your side. The company is not on your side. The union would be, but in software we can't have that.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    That's a very cynical view. While the company may not be on your side, helping your coworkers by proving feedback about bad management is a good thing. Also, why would you want the company to fail? Just because they have one bad manager? My friends still work there, and if you have stock options, you even have a financial interest in the continued success of the company. I see no downside in providing truthful feedback during an exit interview. Sure, it won't help you, but it helps everyone else that's still there.
    - HarryHirsch 6y ago
      The company only looks out for itself and will support you only when it benefits. It will never benefit from supporting an ex-employee that left on bad terms, and the ex-employee will never benefit either from supporting it. So why bother, there is no rational reason. The bond to co-workers at a former workplace is strange and tenuous - actually it goes the other way around, they reach out to you when they want to improve their situation. Let them ask you when they want out, then offer a hand.
      - jedberg 6y ago
        > and the ex-employee will never benefit either from supporting it. Like I said, even when you get fired, you still have stock options. So you do in fact benefit by helping the company when you're leaving. > The bond to co-workers at a former workplace is strange and tenuous - actually it goes the other way around, they reach out to you when they want to improve their situation. Let them ask you when they want out, then offer a hand. Why not offer them help when they don't ask, in the form of giving feedback to HR? Why do they need to ask? Why can't I be altruistic and help just because? I'll say this -- you're entitled to your opinion, but I really hope I never work with or for someone who shares your outlook. And I especially hope I never manage someone with your outlook. Whatever happened to "we're all in this together"?
- normalnorm 6y ago
  > When you get let go I'm sorry for going a bit offtopic, but I have noticed this weird linguistic contortion "get let go" often. Why the euphemisms? You get fired. It doesn't hurt to speak plainly. This "let go" expression seems weirdly childish, like how people say that someone "passed on" to avoid confronting the hard reality of death. And I'm not picking on you, I know that almost everyone talks like this now.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    Well at Netflix in particular, there is no real difference between being fired and being laid off, since both come with the same severance and benefits. So it makes sense to use a generic term. In most cases you use the generic term to avoid liability. Saying someone was fired could be libelous/slanderous.
    - normalnorm 6y ago
      Interesting point, but in most cases people say it when talking about themselves (I was let go) or in the hypothetical, as was the case here with OP: "When you get let go". So no risk of liability, there must be some other explanation.
      - jedberg 6y ago
        There is still a liability when talking about oneself. Sometimes when someone is fired they have to sign a non-disparagement agreement to get their severance. Saying you were fired could be considered disparaging.
        normalnorm 6y ago
        > Saying you were fired could be considered disparaging. I'm sorry, but I highly doubt that this is the case.
    - burntoutfire 6y ago
      The "let go" is total corporate newspeak. You can't "let" go someone who didn't ask to go nor doesn't want to. You can only force him to go (by firing him).
- kingbirdy 6y ago
  That still sounds pretty bad. The person who fired you getting fired doesn't get you your job back.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    No it doesn't, but do you think at other companies people don't get fired for bad reasons?
    - kingbirdy 6y ago
      Of course people get fired at other companies, but that's whataboutism - it's bad no matter where it happens.
      - aidenn0 6y ago
        It's not whataboutism when you are comparing two things. Jed is suggesting one company culture is superior to another. The fact that it doesn't solve a problem that the other also doesn't solve is non-sequitor in such a discussion.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- wolco 6y ago
  Exit interviewers are for those who quit. Never seen a firing exit interview.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    At Netflix everyone gets an exit interview, no matter the reason for leaving.
    - wolco 6y ago
      How does it physically happen? Usually you are called into a meeting. Told your services are no longer required. Then you are given career resource support / paperwork with an offer and helped off the property. At what point is there a chance for an exit interview? After they first fire you, you are in shock.
      - tharkun_ 6y ago
        Sooo American. I mean sure if they fire you, that's how it goes usually but even the other way around people leave and are gone in two weeks and there's no way you get a replacement quick enough to have whoever leaves train them. And Co workers are usually told on the day. Such BS. There are more civil ways where both sides give a couple months notice and giving notice doesn't mean you get escorted off the property. It means you'll still do your job for a couple months, maybe even train a replacement.
      - jedberg 6y ago
        After the paperwork, if you want to.
      - watwut 6y ago
        In companies I worked for, people never left like that. They would be talked to and then continued going to work although significantly less motivated. The firing on spot must have big reason like not showing up or drinking. American companies do that thing where they fire you, you have to leave instantly and then they pay you salary for the time you would be still going to work in any normal company. The rest of team spends time guessing the situation, trying to contact you to figure out what happened and generally is disturbed.
- shanemhansen 6y ago
  > When you get let go, they ask in the exit interview if you were warned, if your manager gave you any feedback leading up to it, etc. And then they follow up if the person says, "it was a total shock". I've definitely seen managers make some bad firing decisions, but they were let go soon afterwards. I guess "the firings will continue until morale improves?"
traskjd 6y ago
I feel like it has to be this way. You can’t both want to be trusted and enjoy the benefits of that autonomy and then expect others to not have that trust an autonomy. In many ways it shows it’s properly baked into the culture and not just some nice sound bite to attract engineering talent.
derefr 6y ago
In this sort of setup, you'd expect there to be a chance of asshole managers; but you'd also expect that those asshole managers would be quickly fired by their non-asshole managers. Being stuck under an asshole would only happen if you were in reality stuck under a whole chain of assholes, leading all the way to the top. And if that was true, the company would be in the middle of imploding anyway.
- andrewem 6y ago
  This may sound flippant, but it's not: you mean like Uber. (See eg Susan Fowler's book Whistleblower.)
marcosdumay 6y ago
On the other hand, I'm sure those bad managers get the natural result of their management much quicker and more visibly when there is no bureaucractic structure protecting them from themselves.
garfieldnate 6y ago
I have to agree; it's one thing to empower leaders to enact their vision. It's another to give them carte blanch to screw over the people they are supposed to be leaders to. Firing is serious, and it doesn't just affect someone's work life.

jedberg 6y ago

I think the number of people that are let go is overexaggerated. But yes, it is easy to fire and hire. The two go hand in hand.

remote_phone 6y ago
My coworker was a product manager at Netflix and she said in a 2 year period she saw at least 20 engineers get fired. That seems pretty high to me.
- yibg 6y ago
  Probably depends on team and circumstances. In my ~3 years there I've only seen a handful of engineers I interact with (which was a lot) get fired.
  - user5994461 6y ago
    That's a huge amount. I remember working in a large company with easily a hundred people over the years. I'd say there were only 2 employees that were fireable materials.
    - jedberg 6y ago
      Yeah but how hard was it to hire new people? There is a direct correlation. It's super easy to hire people at Netflix. It is literally just up to the hiring manager. The flip side is that it is also easy to fire, so you can quickly correct any mistakes you may have made in hiring. This of course means more churn. But to someone working there, this felt like a good thing. It means you didn't have people just biding their time like you see in most big companies. Never once did I think, "how does that person still have a job?" Unlike the other big companies I've worked for, where there is always at least one person who you know is just floating as long as they can and getting away with it.
      - user5994461 6y ago

C1sc0cat 6y ago

Even a first line manager can fire? are there no hr processes

jedberg 6y ago
There is no HR process. In reality you've already had multiple discussions with HR and your manager if you're going to get fired, but it isn't required.