8 ms·

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Prozac. I don't know why, and I've heard from many others that Prozac was harmful to them. But from my point of view, it was nothing short of a lifechanging miracle. I can't remember the last time I've had suicidal ideation. Most people keep this sort of thing quiet, and I think silence is part of the problem. When I was younger, I might have looked down on someone for saying what I just said. When you have a broken leg, everyone notices and can relate; when you have a broken mind, no one can see it, and so no one can feel sympathy, let alone empathy. So what's the takeaway here? One: do not lose hope. I came very close to losing hope, and it would have denied me so much. Two: make a doctor's appointment. There's a chance that you'll wind up on something that makes the situation worse; you need to make a followup appointment ahead of time. Support networks only got me so far.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
> All of that changed after going on Prozac. I don't know why, and I've heard from many others that Prozac was harmful to them. SSRIs are some of the most widely-used medications. Tens of millions of people in the United States alone use SSRIs regularly with good results. No medication is perfect, obviously, and at scale we're bound to see a percentage of people have negative experiences. The problem is that when tens of millions of people have tried SSRIs, even 1% significantly negative reactions adds up to a very large number of people. If 1% of those negative reactions make a point of blasting their negative experience all over the internet, we'll see thousands of negative reports everywhere. Combine this with the fact that few people are willing to publicly admit that SSRIs helped them, and the bias toward negative reviews online is huge. SSRIs are a particularly difficult topic, because they have a noticeable treatment lag (can take up to 1-2 months for positive effects, with positive effects increasing up to 6 months out) and can, in some cases, temporarily worsen symptoms during the initial ramp-up period. Even more difficult, not all SSRIs are the same. It might take 2-3 trials before someone finds the SSRI that works best for them. It might also take several dose adjustments to find the right tradeoff between efficacy and side effects. Unfortunately, many people go online and seek out horror stories before they have a chance to go through a few rounds of medication adjustments to make it work for them. Thanks for sharing your positive success story online. SSRIs aren't for everyone, but it would be a shame for people to spend years suffering from depression when a few SSRI trials might reveal an easy improvement to their lives. Worst case, they can taper off (tapering helps avoid discontinuation effects) and move on to different treatment avenues.
- slfnflctd 6y ago
  Great comment, I mostly agree. There are clearly many people who've been helped. Some of the other contraindications (for the disparate group in that 1% you mentioned) are still important to mention, I think. If you're not certain you'll always have health insurance. If you may ever want to try MDMA therapy, or just about any type of psychedelic therapy (or use them recreationally). If you're uncomfortable with being on something like this super long term and/or are concerned about withdrawal issues. If you can't stand the thought of risking becoming a happy-ish, functional zombie with no sexual interest in your partner. If you're worried the doctor won't diagnose you correctly. If you're not sure you can emotionally handle going through potentially a year or more of trial & error and having to wait months each time for results. Then think twice. I am extremely glad for the people SSRIs have saved, especially those who wouldn't have made it otherwise. It is also incredibly clear to me that despite my continuing issues with depression, they are probably the wrong approach for me.
- tcj_phx 6y ago
  When a patient's symptoms are treated instead of the cause, most people will have subpar results. The SSRI Lexapro [0] helped my girlfriend relapse on cocaine, before i met her. Cocaine is a much stronger anti-depressant than the SSRI's due to its effects as a Mono-Amine Oxidase Inhibitor [2] (1st generation anti-depressants). Eventually the professionals figured out she is a poor methylator, and can't convert folic acid into Folate. Folate (Vitamin B9) is important for DNA synthesis. Food companies fortify with folic acid because it's more stable than other forms of Vitamin B9, even though we now know that some people are harmed by this fortification [1]. On the whole, fortification seems to be beneficial (fewer deformed babies), but poor methylators and old people seem to have negative side effects from getting their vitamin B9 from folic acid. She said adding the L-Methyl-Folate was like flipping a switch between "depressed" and "normal". Her involuntary medical professionals didn't say, "hey sorry we made a mistake, you're not actually broken", and continue to ignore the actual causes of her condition. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escitalopram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escitalopram [1] https://now.tufts.edu/articles/folic-acid-too-much-good-thing https://now.tufts.edu/articles/folic-acid-too-much-good-thin... / https://www.futurity.org/folic-acid-too-much-of-a-good-thing/ https://www.futurity.org/folic-acid-too-much-of-a-good-thing... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor (edit - added bit about cocaine being an MAOI)
ryneandal 6y ago
That's fantastic you found the right SSRI for you immediately, that's incredibly rare. I second the sentiment that when you find the one for you and everything clicks, it's a truly life-changing experience. One thing to watch out for with Prozac is diminishing sensitivity in the nether regions, that's probably the biggest reason I tried a few others and transitioned to another medication.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  > That's fantastic you found the right SSRI for you immediately, that's incredibly rare. It's not accurate to say that it's "incredibly rare". Most people can expect at least some dosage adjustments, if not a few trials of different medications. However, most people will see some improvements from any antidepressant treatment, even if it's not full remission. Getting to full remission is the challenge that requires fine-tuning. Practically speaking, antidepressant medication shouldn't be viewed as a one-stop solution to depression treatment. It should be used as a larger treatment regimen involving therapy (ideally professional, but even self-directed with books is helpful) and lifestyle changes to identify and address the source of the problems. As such, even a minor boost from an antidepressant can help move a person in the right direction, even if it isn't a one-stop cure for the depression. We need to collectively get past this idea that antidepressants are an all-or-nothing cure all and start viewing them as an adjunct to getting back on your feet and staying there.
  - ryneandal 6y ago
    > It's not accurate to say that it's "incredibly rare". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Both my psych and GP said it generally takes at least three different medications to find one that's effective for someone.
thelittleone 6y ago
Thanks for sharing. I've always been firmly grounded and positive person. And then a few years ago riding my bike down the road, I felt a immense wave of anxiety coming over me so intense that I felt like jumping off my bike and running away from myself. As an ex army special forces guy I found this particularly disturbing. And this was just the beginning. My situation continued in that general direction until I started experiencing pain in my liver area. I hoped it would go away but it didn't, so two months ago I decided to face it head on and get full tests done. Xrays, CT scans, ultrasounds, blood work. urinalysis the works. All came back clear. But I just felt it was not me... and searching my symptoms pointed to parasites. So I did a 6 day liver cleans (cant recommend this enough) followed by adjusted diet and two rounds of combantrin I'm please to be back to a very good place. Depression and anxiety are nasty. I was surprised to learn they are symptoms of parasites. They've evolved in such a way that they can manipulate the host into craving foods that are beneficial for them (not for the host). Symptoms among others include anxiety, depression and irritability.
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  What parasites are we talking about and what's a 6 day liver cleans ? (I mean, the procedure). Do you mean to say you had depression for a few months (with anxiety on top) ?
  - thelittleone 6y ago
    I had ups and downs after the first anxiety attack occurred but if normalized it was certainly a gradual decline into depression. Anxiety would come and go and although i never considered suicide I did wonder if I would be better of dead. The liver flush I did involved a morning celery and lemon juice. 5 light meals. 1L of apple juice spread throughout the day. After dinner a glass of water with epsom salts (tastes like pool water but has epic muscle relaxing effects so amazing sleeps) and psylium husk. On day six involves some more epsom salts, then drinking half a glass of olive oil with lemon juice. There's more to it but you can find this protocol pretty easily. Its quite common to pass a lot of stones in stool the next day which is old bile that has been hardened after being purged from the liver. It's important to check you don't have gall stones before doing the liver flush. An ultrasound will tell. In terms of parasites I cant say 100% but combantrin works on 4 main types (mostly parasitic worms) [1]. There's also liver flukes which seemed to be explain some symptoms. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrantel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrantel
wincy 6y ago
I started having disturbing, invasive thoughts a few months before the pandemic hit. I’d be watching a movie with my family after dinner then boom, I’d feel insane. It wasn’t suicidal just things like “soon you will be DEAD!” kind of stuff. Turned out it was me reacting to some of the food we were eating at home. The GP I saw suggested Lexapro which I’ve taken before and it’s not for me. I told him the problem had a strong correlation to food; if I fasted I didn’t get these thoughts. Doctors look at you weird when you say you think asparagus is driving you mad. He just sort of ignored me, I think the fact I saw him right after the pandemic hit just made him assume I was depressed and anxious because of the lockdown. The really crazy thing to me is that Nexium has basically made the problem go away (Prilosec worked but wasn’t quite as good) I saw a GI specialist and he showed me the low FODMAP elimination diet and suggested I eat low FODMAP foods and that has helped it the rest of the way. So crazy how much our gut can affect our mood and psychological profile.
- calibas 6y ago
  Many neurological disorders are at least linked to gut bacteria, including autism and schizophrenia. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/05/gut-bacteria-may-contribute-autism-symptoms-mouse-study-finds https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/05/gut-bacteria-may-con... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/balanced/201903/schizophrenia-and-the-gut https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/balanced/201903/schi...
  - wincy 6y ago
    Initially I suspected carbon monoxide poisoning, because it correlated to when I’d come home. The symptoms were that bad. Turns out it was the dinner I was cooking every night for the family, I’d sit down to relax and eat and just a few minutes after eating asparagus feel completely bonkers. I went to the emergency room, they gave me a few Xanax; then the GP who wanted to prescribe me Lexapro and referred me to a Gastroenterologist. It wasn’t until I got to the specialist that I felt like he “believed” me.
    - 488643689 6y ago
andreilys 6y ago
they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. The realization that thoughts think themselves was one of the most profound moments of my life. Identification with your thoughts is a recipe for unhappiness.
- hoorayimhelping 6y ago
  You don't have to listen to everything your brain tells you
- duderific 6y ago
  I've seen bumper stickers: "Don't believe everything that you think."
donatj 6y ago
My wife just started Prozac after years on other medications, and has had a similar “miracle”. Her mood has been the stablest of the last 10 years I’ve known her. It’s been life changing for her and thus myself, as selfish as that feels. Anyway just really glad to hear another’s similar story.
tcj_phx 6y ago
One of the ways that Prozac helps people is by increasing allopregnanolone in the brain [1]. This is a well-known effect of Prozac, and perhaps the other SSRI's. Allopregnanolone "is a neurosteroid and acts as a positive allosteric modulator of the GABA-A receptor, the major biological target of the inhibitory neurotransmitter γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA)" [0]. GABA -> relaxation [2]. GABA supplements don't work very well on account of the blood brain barrier... An evil pharma company recently got their version of allopregnanolone approved to treat postpartum depression. Cost of treatment: $34,000. It's cheaper to go upstream: progesterone, pregnenolone, or figure out why the body is having trouble making pregnenolone from cholesterol... Vitamin A? Thyroid? One theory of why women experience postpartum depression is that their progesterone levels "fall off a cliff" after they give birth. In theory supplementing progesterone would help postpartum depression better than allopregnanolone. No one can afford to do that study because there'd be no pay off, as all the important patents have expired. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopregnanolone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopregnanolone [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=allopregnanolone+fluoxetine https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=allopregnanolone+fluoxe... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Aminobutyric_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Aminobutyric_acid
- stainforth 6y ago
  So market incentives are provably not the way to best outcomes for humanity?
GordonS 6y ago
I've suffered with depression my entire life, or at least as far back as I can remember. Even as a young child I felt that way - despite the fact that my mother was a manic depressive (with multiple suicide attempts and stays in psychiatric hospitals over the years), I didn't recognise it as depression until I was much older; firstly because it was how things had always been, and secondly I guess because I got so good at hiding it that I'd subconsciously convinced myself. I was always sad, and saw little meaning in my life, or in life at all, really. I cried lot. I frequently fantasised about killing myself, though I never got close to actually doing so. I never talked about the way I felt. I felt ashamed, and I felt that people wouldn't understand - I've often heard "normal" people talk of how depressed people should "man up" or "get over it". Over the years, I got very good at hiding my true feelings. AFAIK, nobody ever guessed. Maybe 5 years ago I started taking 5-HTP, which I believe has an SSRI effect (but one that is more short lived than pharmaceutical SSRIs). I actually started taking it for another reason (neuropathic pain, which has of course not helped with depression!), as I'd never considered treating the way I felt with chemicals, but within a few weeks the difference in me was incredible - I realised I hadn't cried in a while, and hadn't felt the immense lows that I felt every couple of weeks or so. I still take 200mg twice a day, and get immense benefit from it - it's not a cure by a long shot, but after a lifetime of feeling miserable, the change is amazing. I seldom cry for no reason, and I rarely experience extreme lows (and when I do, they are less severe and shorter lived). More recently I also started taking ketamine for my neuropathic pain, but it's actually further enhanced the anti-depressive actions. I've tried SNRIs and SSRIs for my neuropathic pain, but am unable to tolerable them. If anyone else is in the same position, I'd very strongly recommend reading about 5-HTP and thinking about trying it. If you've tried SSRIs and they've failed for you, then it might be worth looking into ketamine (though I realise that may not be an option depending on where you live).
chasd00 6y ago
I'm the same way with ADD, getting on medicine changed my life. Unfortunately, i waited until my 30s to actually go to a doctor (at my poor wife's demand, i mean suggestion). All my life I had been told i wasn't smart enough nor studious enough to do the things i wanted and so struggled through it all. Getting on a medication changed everything for me. I use the analogy of imagining your day as a good, solid, sprint. You finish tired but you did it and feel good about it. For an unmedicated person with ADD it's a good, solid, sprint but up hill. Everything is just that much harder and exhausting than for a normal person. ADD drugs obviously get abused and so I think they get a bad reputation and, for sure, can be dangerous and have side effects. Same goes for pain medication. For real, genuine, chronic pain sufferers Oxycontin and the others are life changing. However, the drugs also get abused and are addicting so the real benefits can get masked. The last thing i'll say is it takes a disciplined prescriber when dealing with these kinds of drugs. As software engineers, I'm sure we're all guilty of just throwing code at a problem. Many prescribers are guilty of just throwing Adderall at a problem or throwing Oxycontin at a problem without really understanding the root issue.
throwaway_kufu 6y ago
> When you have a broken leg, everyone notices and can relate; when you have a broken mind, no one can see it, and so no one can feel sympathy, let alone empathy. This hits home and almost moved me to tears. I went through a trauma about 3 years ago, I was Kidnapped/abducted from a gas station at gun point and was forced to drive my attacker for nearly 30 minutes at gun point under threat of death before opening the door and diving out of my moving vehicle to escape. During that experience I considered purposely crashing my car believing it would kill both me and my attacker, but I wanted to live and ultimately took my chances diving onto the street from the moving car knowing I might get run over. I can’t explain it other than I know I should have been thankful/grateful/happy I escaped with my life, but I knew immediately the trauma was real and sure enough it has been a downward spiral of cutting off every single relationship in my life and extreme isolation/avoidance. I’ve sought help/treatment (both therapy and meds) to no real benefit. Even 3 years later I have to relieve the trauma because I’m suing the gas station for negligent security (turns out the guy had been loitering at the gas station for 2 hours prior to targeting me, even hanging out in the store talking to employees without ever making a purchase). The insurance attorneys are victimizing next worse than my kidnapper, they have destroyed the surveillance video, Claimed the kidnapping didn’t happen on their property (when I was literally approached while at the gas pumps), and telling me my damages aren’t real. This goes directly to your point, if I were shot they would have settled the policy limit ($2M) but because it’s not visible damages they are doing everything to claim it didn’t happen on their property, if it did they aren’t liable, and if they are liable the damages aren’t real but self inflicted. They either have no clue what kind of additional trauma they are causing or they actually do and are trying to cause me self harm so this goes away for them. I humbly admit while I always felt for people who went through traumas (soldiers, child abuse, sexual abuse) I realize now I was incapable of actually empathizing...I won’t say I have suicidal ideations, but I often feel I’d have been better off not surviving.
- jquery 6y ago
  I’m so sorry to hear that. Keep fighting the good fight. Don’t give up. You survived for a reason. You have a purpose. Only you can figure out what that purpose is.
- 6y ago
gnulinux 6y ago
I had a similar experience with Prozac, albeit less extreme. I was depressed and very anxious about anything and everything. Started Prozac + CBT therapy, it had no side-effects and I was feeling really much better in a matter of weeks.
LibertyBeta 6y ago
This plays nicely into the idea that human consciousness is really just our brain meats way of resolving the internal understanding of the world with the outside understanding of the world. Mental health, and any issues you have with it, are a hitch in that system. But to assume that you can fix is by only affecting one part(the internal understanding of the world) seems flawed for me. Same can be said, like in the article, of only fixing the outside understanding of the world (chemical changes). So let me add my voice to your message, don't lose hope! We are a ball of walnuty textured jelly that tracks changes between the inside view of the world with the outside input of the world using lightning and chemicals. Its complex, hard, and the fault surface is huge. Keep going, try new solutions, find someone one who helps you build the solution for you. But please, _try_.
saityi 6y ago
>Most people keep this sort of thing quiet, and I think silence is part of the problem. For the sake of this, I post about it online on occasion when the topic comes up -- an SNRI, Effexor XR, was life-changing for me, too. I suffered from crippling anxiety; my therapist diagnosed me with generalised anxiety, social anxiety, and major depressive disorders. Cognitive-behavioural therapy helped me live me life instead of letting it be controlled by these issues, but the issues were still there, and quite intense. There were some nights it just totally overwhelmed me. On Effexor XR, that never happens. Anxiety and depression are not only no longer constantly looming over me, but they are completely gone. However, the first thing I tried was citalopram, an SSRI. It mostly got rid of them too, but I never felt quite like 'myself'. I felt like a zombie and like a bit of my soul had been taken out. Plus it wasn't entirely effective like Effexor. (For what it's worth -- diet, exercise, and so on were tried too. No benefit to my mental health. I've also given more time than they're worth to various supplements that people report as helping their own issues.)
xivzgrev 6y ago
I’m glad you got help. Sometimes the only thing keeping me going is that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and there is something else to try. Medication also helped to prevent me from going too low
richardlblair 6y ago
I'm glad it helped, and I think offering up stories from all angles is really beneficial, especially when it comes to mental health. The reality is, there is no one size fits all solution, so the more people talk the better off everyone is. I took one of the offshoots of Prozac for three months and it took my suicidal thoughts to a whole new level. For me it's all about therapy. A lot of what I'm facing is less about hormones and more about emotional trauma, so these pills are trying to fix the wrong thing. It's like fixing your breaks when the engine doesn't start. Sure, they are both parts of a car, but they couldn't be doing more different jobs. My experience with therapy has been really eye opening. I think everyone can benefit from some form of therapy. I think the world would be a much better place if people were able to feel their emotions, explore them with curiosity, and learn from them. Lastly, take care of yourself, friends. If you're not feeling well, please talk to a professional. They can help you.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
As a counter point, I was on prozac (fluoxetine) for about a year after being diagnosed with major depression. Everything seemed better at first, but my personality changed in a way that, when I looked at it objectively, I did not like and eventually I felt as though the drug was merely masking depression that never actually went away. My personal opinion having talked to doctors, therapists, and other depression sufferers is that the medical industry's treatment of depression is basically just throwing darts and hoping. They only kinda have a rough idea of how to treat some of the symptoms of depression and care not for any potential underlying causes. The "chemical imbalance" language, in my considered opinion, really does enforce this world view that depression is something you just throw drugs at until you're fixed, and I don't think that's helpful.
- Kalium 6y ago
  As far as I can tell, there isn't a clear consensus on the precise causes underlying depression. It's challenging to treat causes when you lack a mechanistic understanding. So, yes, they've developed treatment protocols that use the tools they have available that sometimes work. I don't think anybody considers this ideal, but many consider it preferable to no ability to treat at all. A world in which a deeper understanding of fundamentals enabled full treatment would be best for everyone. It's not like nobody is trying! But setting a bone doesn't require a deep understanding of how bone knitting happens, and therefore comes well before.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

> All of that changed after going on Prozac. I don't know why, and I've heard from many others that Prozac was harmful to them. SSRIs are some of the most widely-used medications. Tens of millions of people in the United States alone use SSRIs regularly with good results. No medication is perfect, obviously, and at scale we're bound to see a percentage of people have negative experiences. The problem is that when tens of millions of people have tried SSRIs, even 1% significantly negative reactions adds up to a very large number of people. If 1% of those negative reactions make a point of blasting their negative experience all over the internet, we'll see thousands of negative reports everywhere. Combine this with the fact that few people are willing to publicly admit that SSRIs helped them, and the bias toward negative reviews online is huge. SSRIs are a particularly difficult topic, because they have a noticeable treatment lag (can take up to 1-2 months for positive effects, with positive effects increasing up to 6 months out) and can, in some cases, temporarily worsen symptoms during the initial ramp-up period. Even more difficult, not all SSRIs are the same. It might take 2-3 trials before someone finds the SSRI that works best for them. It might also take several dose adjustments to find the right tradeoff between efficacy and side effects. Unfortunately, many people go online and seek out horror stories before they have a chance to go through a few rounds of medication adjustments to make it work for them. Thanks for sharing your positive success story online. SSRIs aren't for everyone, but it would be a shame for people to spend years suffering from depression when a few SSRI trials might reveal an easy improvement to their lives. Worst case, they can taper off (tapering helps avoid discontinuation effects) and move on to different treatment avenues.

slfnflctd 6y ago
Great comment, I mostly agree. There are clearly many people who've been helped. Some of the other contraindications (for the disparate group in that 1% you mentioned) are still important to mention, I think. If you're not certain you'll always have health insurance. If you may ever want to try MDMA therapy, or just about any type of psychedelic therapy (or use them recreationally). If you're uncomfortable with being on something like this super long term and/or are concerned about withdrawal issues. If you can't stand the thought of risking becoming a happy-ish, functional zombie with no sexual interest in your partner. If you're worried the doctor won't diagnose you correctly. If you're not sure you can emotionally handle going through potentially a year or more of trial & error and having to wait months each time for results. Then think twice. I am extremely glad for the people SSRIs have saved, especially those who wouldn't have made it otherwise. It is also incredibly clear to me that despite my continuing issues with depression, they are probably the wrong approach for me.
tcj_phx 6y ago
When a patient's symptoms are treated instead of the cause, most people will have subpar results. The SSRI Lexapro [0] helped my girlfriend relapse on cocaine, before i met her. Cocaine is a much stronger anti-depressant than the SSRI's due to its effects as a Mono-Amine Oxidase Inhibitor [2] (1st generation anti-depressants). Eventually the professionals figured out she is a poor methylator, and can't convert folic acid into Folate. Folate (Vitamin B9) is important for DNA synthesis. Food companies fortify with folic acid because it's more stable than other forms of Vitamin B9, even though we now know that some people are harmed by this fortification [1]. On the whole, fortification seems to be beneficial (fewer deformed babies), but poor methylators and old people seem to have negative side effects from getting their vitamin B9 from folic acid. She said adding the L-Methyl-Folate was like flipping a switch between "depressed" and "normal". Her involuntary medical professionals didn't say, "hey sorry we made a mistake, you're not actually broken", and continue to ignore the actual causes of her condition. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escitalopram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escitalopram [1] https://now.tufts.edu/articles/folic-acid-too-much-good-thing https://now.tufts.edu/articles/folic-acid-too-much-good-thin... / https://www.futurity.org/folic-acid-too-much-of-a-good-thing/ https://www.futurity.org/folic-acid-too-much-of-a-good-thing... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor (edit - added bit about cocaine being an MAOI)

ryneandal 6y ago

That's fantastic you found the right SSRI for you immediately, that's incredibly rare. I second the sentiment that when you find the one for you and everything clicks, it's a truly life-changing experience. One thing to watch out for with Prozac is diminishing sensitivity in the nether regions, that's probably the biggest reason I tried a few others and transitioned to another medication.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
> That's fantastic you found the right SSRI for you immediately, that's incredibly rare. It's not accurate to say that it's "incredibly rare". Most people can expect at least some dosage adjustments, if not a few trials of different medications. However, most people will see some improvements from any antidepressant treatment, even if it's not full remission. Getting to full remission is the challenge that requires fine-tuning. Practically speaking, antidepressant medication shouldn't be viewed as a one-stop solution to depression treatment. It should be used as a larger treatment regimen involving therapy (ideally professional, but even self-directed with books is helpful) and lifestyle changes to identify and address the source of the problems. As such, even a minor boost from an antidepressant can help move a person in the right direction, even if it isn't a one-stop cure for the depression. We need to collectively get past this idea that antidepressants are an all-or-nothing cure all and start viewing them as an adjunct to getting back on your feet and staying there.
- ryneandal 6y ago
  > It's not accurate to say that it's "incredibly rare". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Both my psych and GP said it generally takes at least three different medications to find one that's effective for someone.

thelittleone 6y ago

Thanks for sharing. I've always been firmly grounded and positive person. And then a few years ago riding my bike down the road, I felt a immense wave of anxiety coming over me so intense that I felt like jumping off my bike and running away from myself. As an ex army special forces guy I found this particularly disturbing. And this was just the beginning. My situation continued in that general direction until I started experiencing pain in my liver area. I hoped it would go away but it didn't, so two months ago I decided to face it head on and get full tests done. Xrays, CT scans, ultrasounds, blood work. urinalysis the works. All came back clear. But I just felt it was not me... and searching my symptoms pointed to parasites. So I did a 6 day liver cleans (cant recommend this enough) followed by adjusted diet and two rounds of combantrin I'm please to be back to a very good place. Depression and anxiety are nasty. I was surprised to learn they are symptoms of parasites. They've evolved in such a way that they can manipulate the host into craving foods that are beneficial for them (not for the host). Symptoms among others include anxiety, depression and irritability.

johnchristopher 6y ago
What parasites are we talking about and what's a 6 day liver cleans ? (I mean, the procedure). Do you mean to say you had depression for a few months (with anxiety on top) ?
- thelittleone 6y ago
  I had ups and downs after the first anxiety attack occurred but if normalized it was certainly a gradual decline into depression. Anxiety would come and go and although i never considered suicide I did wonder if I would be better of dead. The liver flush I did involved a morning celery and lemon juice. 5 light meals. 1L of apple juice spread throughout the day. After dinner a glass of water with epsom salts (tastes like pool water but has epic muscle relaxing effects so amazing sleeps) and psylium husk. On day six involves some more epsom salts, then drinking half a glass of olive oil with lemon juice. There's more to it but you can find this protocol pretty easily. Its quite common to pass a lot of stones in stool the next day which is old bile that has been hardened after being purged from the liver. It's important to check you don't have gall stones before doing the liver flush. An ultrasound will tell. In terms of parasites I cant say 100% but combantrin works on 4 main types (mostly parasitic worms) [1]. There's also liver flukes which seemed to be explain some symptoms. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrantel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrantel

wincy 6y ago

I started having disturbing, invasive thoughts a few months before the pandemic hit. I’d be watching a movie with my family after dinner then boom, I’d feel insane. It wasn’t suicidal just things like “soon you will be DEAD!” kind of stuff. Turned out it was me reacting to some of the food we were eating at home. The GP I saw suggested Lexapro which I’ve taken before and it’s not for me. I told him the problem had a strong correlation to food; if I fasted I didn’t get these thoughts. Doctors look at you weird when you say you think asparagus is driving you mad. He just sort of ignored me, I think the fact I saw him right after the pandemic hit just made him assume I was depressed and anxious because of the lockdown. The really crazy thing to me is that Nexium has basically made the problem go away (Prilosec worked but wasn’t quite as good) I saw a GI specialist and he showed me the low FODMAP elimination diet and suggested I eat low FODMAP foods and that has helped it the rest of the way. So crazy how much our gut can affect our mood and psychological profile.

calibas 6y ago
Many neurological disorders are at least linked to gut bacteria, including autism and schizophrenia. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/05/gut-bacteria-may-contribute-autism-symptoms-mouse-study-finds https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/05/gut-bacteria-may-con... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/balanced/201903/schizophrenia-and-the-gut https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/balanced/201903/schi...
- wincy 6y ago
  Initially I suspected carbon monoxide poisoning, because it correlated to when I’d come home. The symptoms were that bad. Turns out it was the dinner I was cooking every night for the family, I’d sit down to relax and eat and just a few minutes after eating asparagus feel completely bonkers. I went to the emergency room, they gave me a few Xanax; then the GP who wanted to prescribe me Lexapro and referred me to a Gastroenterologist. It wasn’t until I got to the specialist that I felt like he “believed” me.
  - 488643689 6y ago

andreilys 6y ago

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. The realization that thoughts think themselves was one of the most profound moments of my life. Identification with your thoughts is a recipe for unhappiness.

hoorayimhelping 6y ago
You don't have to listen to everything your brain tells you
duderific 6y ago
I've seen bumper stickers: "Don't believe everything that you think."

donatj 6y ago

My wife just started Prozac after years on other medications, and has had a similar “miracle”. Her mood has been the stablest of the last 10 years I’ve known her. It’s been life changing for her and thus myself, as selfish as that feels. Anyway just really glad to hear another’s similar story.

tcj_phx 6y ago

One of the ways that Prozac helps people is by increasing allopregnanolone in the brain [1]. This is a well-known effect of Prozac, and perhaps the other SSRI's. Allopregnanolone "is a neurosteroid and acts as a positive allosteric modulator of the GABA-A receptor, the major biological target of the inhibitory neurotransmitter γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA)" [0]. GABA -> relaxation [2]. GABA supplements don't work very well on account of the blood brain barrier... An evil pharma company recently got their version of allopregnanolone approved to treat postpartum depression. Cost of treatment: $34,000. It's cheaper to go upstream: progesterone, pregnenolone, or figure out why the body is having trouble making pregnenolone from cholesterol... Vitamin A? Thyroid? One theory of why women experience postpartum depression is that their progesterone levels "fall off a cliff" after they give birth. In theory supplementing progesterone would help postpartum depression better than allopregnanolone. No one can afford to do that study because there'd be no pay off, as all the important patents have expired. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopregnanolone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopregnanolone [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=allopregnanolone+fluoxetine https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=allopregnanolone+fluoxe... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Aminobutyric_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Aminobutyric_acid

stainforth 6y ago
So market incentives are provably not the way to best outcomes for humanity?

GordonS 6y ago

I've suffered with depression my entire life, or at least as far back as I can remember. Even as a young child I felt that way - despite the fact that my mother was a manic depressive (with multiple suicide attempts and stays in psychiatric hospitals over the years), I didn't recognise it as depression until I was much older; firstly because it was how things had always been, and secondly I guess because I got so good at hiding it that I'd subconsciously convinced myself. I was always sad, and saw little meaning in my life, or in life at all, really. I cried lot. I frequently fantasised about killing myself, though I never got close to actually doing so. I never talked about the way I felt. I felt ashamed, and I felt that people wouldn't understand - I've often heard "normal" people talk of how depressed people should "man up" or "get over it". Over the years, I got very good at hiding my true feelings. AFAIK, nobody ever guessed. Maybe 5 years ago I started taking 5-HTP, which I believe has an SSRI effect (but one that is more short lived than pharmaceutical SSRIs). I actually started taking it for another reason (neuropathic pain, which has of course not helped with depression!), as I'd never considered treating the way I felt with chemicals, but within a few weeks the difference in me was incredible - I realised I hadn't cried in a while, and hadn't felt the immense lows that I felt every couple of weeks or so. I still take 200mg twice a day, and get immense benefit from it - it's not a cure by a long shot, but after a lifetime of feeling miserable, the change is amazing. I seldom cry for no reason, and I rarely experience extreme lows (and when I do, they are less severe and shorter lived). More recently I also started taking ketamine for my neuropathic pain, but it's actually further enhanced the anti-depressive actions. I've tried SNRIs and SSRIs for my neuropathic pain, but am unable to tolerable them. If anyone else is in the same position, I'd very strongly recommend reading about 5-HTP and thinking about trying it. If you've tried SSRIs and they've failed for you, then it might be worth looking into ketamine (though I realise that may not be an option depending on where you live).

chasd00 6y ago

I'm the same way with ADD, getting on medicine changed my life. Unfortunately, i waited until my 30s to actually go to a doctor (at my poor wife's demand, i mean suggestion). All my life I had been told i wasn't smart enough nor studious enough to do the things i wanted and so struggled through it all. Getting on a medication changed everything for me. I use the analogy of imagining your day as a good, solid, sprint. You finish tired but you did it and feel good about it. For an unmedicated person with ADD it's a good, solid, sprint but up hill. Everything is just that much harder and exhausting than for a normal person. ADD drugs obviously get abused and so I think they get a bad reputation and, for sure, can be dangerous and have side effects. Same goes for pain medication. For real, genuine, chronic pain sufferers Oxycontin and the others are life changing. However, the drugs also get abused and are addicting so the real benefits can get masked. The last thing i'll say is it takes a disciplined prescriber when dealing with these kinds of drugs. As software engineers, I'm sure we're all guilty of just throwing code at a problem. Many prescribers are guilty of just throwing Adderall at a problem or throwing Oxycontin at a problem without really understanding the root issue.

throwaway_kufu 6y ago

> When you have a broken leg, everyone notices and can relate; when you have a broken mind, no one can see it, and so no one can feel sympathy, let alone empathy. This hits home and almost moved me to tears. I went through a trauma about 3 years ago, I was Kidnapped/abducted from a gas station at gun point and was forced to drive my attacker for nearly 30 minutes at gun point under threat of death before opening the door and diving out of my moving vehicle to escape. During that experience I considered purposely crashing my car believing it would kill both me and my attacker, but I wanted to live and ultimately took my chances diving onto the street from the moving car knowing I might get run over. I can’t explain it other than I know I should have been thankful/grateful/happy I escaped with my life, but I knew immediately the trauma was real and sure enough it has been a downward spiral of cutting off every single relationship in my life and extreme isolation/avoidance. I’ve sought help/treatment (both therapy and meds) to no real benefit. Even 3 years later I have to relieve the trauma because I’m suing the gas station for negligent security (turns out the guy had been loitering at the gas station for 2 hours prior to targeting me, even hanging out in the store talking to employees without ever making a purchase). The insurance attorneys are victimizing next worse than my kidnapper, they have destroyed the surveillance video, Claimed the kidnapping didn’t happen on their property (when I was literally approached while at the gas pumps), and telling me my damages aren’t real. This goes directly to your point, if I were shot they would have settled the policy limit ($2M) but because it’s not visible damages they are doing everything to claim it didn’t happen on their property, if it did they aren’t liable, and if they are liable the damages aren’t real but self inflicted. They either have no clue what kind of additional trauma they are causing or they actually do and are trying to cause me self harm so this goes away for them. I humbly admit while I always felt for people who went through traumas (soldiers, child abuse, sexual abuse) I realize now I was incapable of actually empathizing...I won’t say I have suicidal ideations, but I often feel I’d have been better off not surviving.

jquery 6y ago
I’m so sorry to hear that. Keep fighting the good fight. Don’t give up. You survived for a reason. You have a purpose. Only you can figure out what that purpose is.
6y ago

gnulinux 6y ago

I had a similar experience with Prozac, albeit less extreme. I was depressed and very anxious about anything and everything. Started Prozac + CBT therapy, it had no side-effects and I was feeling really much better in a matter of weeks.

LibertyBeta 6y ago

This plays nicely into the idea that human consciousness is really just our brain meats way of resolving the internal understanding of the world with the outside understanding of the world. Mental health, and any issues you have with it, are a hitch in that system. But to assume that you can fix is by only affecting one part(the internal understanding of the world) seems flawed for me. Same can be said, like in the article, of only fixing the outside understanding of the world (chemical changes). So let me add my voice to your message, don't lose hope! We are a ball of walnuty textured jelly that tracks changes between the inside view of the world with the outside input of the world using lightning and chemicals. Its complex, hard, and the fault surface is huge. Keep going, try new solutions, find someone one who helps you build the solution for you. But please, _try_.

saityi 6y ago

>Most people keep this sort of thing quiet, and I think silence is part of the problem. For the sake of this, I post about it online on occasion when the topic comes up -- an SNRI, Effexor XR, was life-changing for me, too. I suffered from crippling anxiety; my therapist diagnosed me with generalised anxiety, social anxiety, and major depressive disorders. Cognitive-behavioural therapy helped me live me life instead of letting it be controlled by these issues, but the issues were still there, and quite intense. There were some nights it just totally overwhelmed me. On Effexor XR, that never happens. Anxiety and depression are not only no longer constantly looming over me, but they are completely gone. However, the first thing I tried was citalopram, an SSRI. It mostly got rid of them too, but I never felt quite like 'myself'. I felt like a zombie and like a bit of my soul had been taken out. Plus it wasn't entirely effective like Effexor. (For what it's worth -- diet, exercise, and so on were tried too. No benefit to my mental health. I've also given more time than they're worth to various supplements that people report as helping their own issues.)

xivzgrev 6y ago

I’m glad you got help. Sometimes the only thing keeping me going is that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and there is something else to try. Medication also helped to prevent me from going too low

richardlblair 6y ago

I'm glad it helped, and I think offering up stories from all angles is really beneficial, especially when it comes to mental health. The reality is, there is no one size fits all solution, so the more people talk the better off everyone is. I took one of the offshoots of Prozac for three months and it took my suicidal thoughts to a whole new level. For me it's all about therapy. A lot of what I'm facing is less about hormones and more about emotional trauma, so these pills are trying to fix the wrong thing. It's like fixing your breaks when the engine doesn't start. Sure, they are both parts of a car, but they couldn't be doing more different jobs. My experience with therapy has been really eye opening. I think everyone can benefit from some form of therapy. I think the world would be a much better place if people were able to feel their emotions, explore them with curiosity, and learn from them. Lastly, take care of yourself, friends. If you're not feeling well, please talk to a professional. They can help you.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

As a counter point, I was on prozac (fluoxetine) for about a year after being diagnosed with major depression. Everything seemed better at first, but my personality changed in a way that, when I looked at it objectively, I did not like and eventually I felt as though the drug was merely masking depression that never actually went away. My personal opinion having talked to doctors, therapists, and other depression sufferers is that the medical industry's treatment of depression is basically just throwing darts and hoping. They only kinda have a rough idea of how to treat some of the symptoms of depression and care not for any potential underlying causes. The "chemical imbalance" language, in my considered opinion, really does enforce this world view that depression is something you just throw drugs at until you're fixed, and I don't think that's helpful.

Kalium 6y ago
As far as I can tell, there isn't a clear consensus on the precise causes underlying depression. It's challenging to treat causes when you lack a mechanistic understanding. So, yes, they've developed treatment protocols that use the tools they have available that sometimes work. I don't think anybody considers this ideal, but many consider it preferable to no ability to treat at all. A world in which a deeper understanding of fundamentals enabled full treatment would be best for everyone. It's not like nobody is trying! But setting a bone doesn't require a deep understanding of how bone knitting happens, and therefore comes well before.