4 ms·

> The concept of civility and politeness once existed, but unfortunately has been almost entirely thrown away. This is easy to see if you look up old debates o

> The concept of civility and politeness once existed, but unfortunately has been almost entirely thrown away. This is easy to see if you look up old debates on YouTube; it was normal and expected for people of diametrically-opposite worldviews to engage and debate with each other in a polite, mostly-calm manner. Compare that to the shouting-match of today’s media landscape and you’ll see what we’ve lost. Nobody's cancelling people over political disagreements; they're cancelling people for dehumanizing groups of people, regardless of the tone of voice. People may have had orderly disagreements more often back in the 50s, sure (although the violence against Black as well as Native Americans in the 50s is casually and commonly forgotten - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_racial_violence_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_racial_violence_in_the_Un...). The difference is that in the 50s, people weren't fired for casually employing the n- word against Black people. This is the difference between today v. the past. What you describe still feels like a regression.

keiferski 6y ago
> Nobody's cancelling people over political disagreements; That seems to be exactly what is happening.
- eganist 6y ago
  > That seems to be exactly what is happening. Please cite? Need more than one, notably cases where people have lost their jobs for "offensive" language other than dehumanizing groups of people.
  - keiferski 6y ago
    I said cancel culture, not people who have lost their jobs. There are plenty of examples of people who otherwise would have lost their jobs had they not already been wealthy, so many that it is so obvious that a topic like this can be posted to HN without any prior explanation. Goya Foods is a recent example and the list goes on. They don’t seem to have done anything other than show support for Trump. I despise Trump, didn’t vote for him, and think he has done significant damage to the office of the presidency and the country as a whole, but clearly expressing any sort of support for him will get you boycotted (I.e. canceled.) which falls under ‘unacceptable political opinions’ in my book. Otherwise, I’m really not sure what your definition of ‘dehumanizing’ is. Outright racism and hatred is condemned by nearly everyone.
    - eganist 6y ago
      > Goya Foods is a recent example and the list goes on. They don’t seem to have done anything other than show support for Trump. Context around what you're describing: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/10/goya-boycott-trump/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/10/goya-boycot... The boycott seems to be stemming from Trump's blatant use of bigotry against the Latinx community, so Goya is being blackballed by the Latinx community for endorsing racism. Just because Trump is a politician doesn't mean boycotting people for endorsing him is only political. Considering Trump's generally-known and blatant bigotry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump), it's no different than boycotting someone for endorsing David Duke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke)
    - orwin 6y ago
      Realistically, boycotts seems to be the only political tool you have in the US, with all major candidates could be considered varying degrees of authoritarian and sometime libertarian right[0], with no big unions like Germany. If you're not on the "right" side, this moight be your only way of speaking for yourself. Boycott is a non-violent way of saying "stop this", so if you can afford to, you should absolutely do it. Even for petty things. [0] https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020 https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020 (there is better tools but this one is Ok-ish)
    - ModernMech 6y ago
      > but clearly expressing any sort of support for him will get you boycotted (I.e. canceled.) which falls under ‘unacceptable political opinions’ in my book. They used to call this “voting with your wallet” when I was a kid. I don’t really see what the problem is here. If I don’t like the ethics of a company, I’m free to buy beans from a company whose ethics I do like. This seems to be a critical component of capitalism. What are we supposed to do, force people to buy beans for Goya?
  - erics32 6y ago
    It doesn't even have to be a political disagreement - could be something as simple as appearing to have fallen asleep in a zoom call: https://www.newsweek.com/petition-fire-nyc-professor-accused-sleeping-during-anti-racist-meeting-gathers-2000-signatures-1518056 https://www.newsweek.com/petition-fire-nyc-professor-accused... Some others: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/white-fragility-racism-racism-progressive-progressphiles-david-shor.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/white-fragility-raci... https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/14/rosetta-comet-dr-matt-taylor-apology-sexist-shirt https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/14/rosetta-come... https://www.thefire.org/research/disinvitation-database/#home/?view_2_per_page=1000&view_2_page=1&view_2_sort=field_6|asc https://www.thefire.org/research/disinvitation-database/#hom... https://reason.com/2019/05/05/teen-fiction-twitter-is-eating-its-young/ https://reason.com/2019/05/05/teen-fiction-twitter-is-eating... Plenty more instances that have happened in the past 5 years.
psds2 6y ago
Just wanted to add we would be a better society if we had infact been firing people for using the n word in the 50's.
- eganist 6y ago
  > Just wanted to add we would be a better society if we had infact been firing people for using the n word in the 50's. 1000‰, without a shadow of a doubt.
082349872349872 6y ago
The difference is that in the 50s, black people weren't only cancelled by being fired, or cancelled via perjury, they were also cancelled via extrajudicial execution. (compare Emmett Till)

keiferski 6y ago

> Nobody's cancelling people over political disagreements; That seems to be exactly what is happening.

eganist 6y ago
> That seems to be exactly what is happening. Please cite? Need more than one, notably cases where people have lost their jobs for "offensive" language other than dehumanizing groups of people.
- keiferski 6y ago
  I said cancel culture, not people who have lost their jobs. There are plenty of examples of people who otherwise would have lost their jobs had they not already been wealthy, so many that it is so obvious that a topic like this can be posted to HN without any prior explanation. Goya Foods is a recent example and the list goes on. They don’t seem to have done anything other than show support for Trump. I despise Trump, didn’t vote for him, and think he has done significant damage to the office of the presidency and the country as a whole, but clearly expressing any sort of support for him will get you boycotted (I.e. canceled.) which falls under ‘unacceptable political opinions’ in my book. Otherwise, I’m really not sure what your definition of ‘dehumanizing’ is. Outright racism and hatred is condemned by nearly everyone.
  - eganist 6y ago
    > Goya Foods is a recent example and the list goes on. They don’t seem to have done anything other than show support for Trump. Context around what you're describing: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/10/goya-boycott-trump/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/10/goya-boycot... The boycott seems to be stemming from Trump's blatant use of bigotry against the Latinx community, so Goya is being blackballed by the Latinx community for endorsing racism. Just because Trump is a politician doesn't mean boycotting people for endorsing him is only political. Considering Trump's generally-known and blatant bigotry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump), it's no different than boycotting someone for endorsing David Duke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke)
  - orwin 6y ago
    Realistically, boycotts seems to be the only political tool you have in the US, with all major candidates could be considered varying degrees of authoritarian and sometime libertarian right[0], with no big unions like Germany. If you're not on the "right" side, this moight be your only way of speaking for yourself. Boycott is a non-violent way of saying "stop this", so if you can afford to, you should absolutely do it. Even for petty things. [0] https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020 https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020 (there is better tools but this one is Ok-ish)
  - ModernMech 6y ago
    > but clearly expressing any sort of support for him will get you boycotted (I.e. canceled.) which falls under ‘unacceptable political opinions’ in my book. They used to call this “voting with your wallet” when I was a kid. I don’t really see what the problem is here. If I don’t like the ethics of a company, I’m free to buy beans from a company whose ethics I do like. This seems to be a critical component of capitalism. What are we supposed to do, force people to buy beans for Goya?
- erics32 6y ago
  It doesn't even have to be a political disagreement - could be something as simple as appearing to have fallen asleep in a zoom call: https://www.newsweek.com/petition-fire-nyc-professor-accused-sleeping-during-anti-racist-meeting-gathers-2000-signatures-1518056 https://www.newsweek.com/petition-fire-nyc-professor-accused... Some others: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/white-fragility-racism-racism-progressive-progressphiles-david-shor.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/white-fragility-raci... https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/14/rosetta-comet-dr-matt-taylor-apology-sexist-shirt https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/14/rosetta-come... https://www.thefire.org/research/disinvitation-database/#home/?view_2_per_page=1000&view_2_page=1&view_2_sort=field_6|asc https://www.thefire.org/research/disinvitation-database/#hom... https://reason.com/2019/05/05/teen-fiction-twitter-is-eating-its-young/ https://reason.com/2019/05/05/teen-fiction-twitter-is-eating... Plenty more instances that have happened in the past 5 years.

psds2 6y ago

Just wanted to add we would be a better society if we had infact been firing people for using the n word in the 50's.

eganist 6y ago
> Just wanted to add we would be a better society if we had infact been firing people for using the n word in the 50's. 1000‰, without a shadow of a doubt.

082349872349872 6y ago

The difference is that in the 50s, black people weren't only cancelled by being fired, or cancelled via perjury, they were also cancelled via extrajudicial execution. (compare Emmett Till)