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Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

• meatpeople 16y ago
  Having only recently read Peopleware 2nd Ed., I've been mulling over the audition concept in the "Hiring A Juggler" chapter - effectively having a developer present on a project they worked on, what they contributed and learned and so forth. It seems like it would have value - allow the candidate to prepare and present on a topic they're strong on, and in-depth enough to allow cross-examination. Has anyone any experience of this from either side?
• motters 16y ago
  In the last year I've been on interviews like this, where I've been presented with sorting problems or quirky pointer arithmetic conundrums. However, these bear no relation at all to the kinds of practical software problems which I've had to tackle in business or industrial contexts in the previous decade or more.
  • martincmartin 16y ago
    That might be a good thing. It shows how you think in new situations, how you can problem solve, and how you deal with complexity. I used to give "reverse a linked list," and it's essentially a book keeping problem: you're changing links around the time you're trying to read them, so you need to keep all that straight. If there's a bug in their code, you can see the thought process they go through to find and fix it. Unless the job they're interviewing for is almost exactly the same as their current job, it's important to understand how they think through new situations.
• deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
• joshsegall 16y ago
  It seems fairly obvious that a pure tech interview doesn't screen for cultural fit, and that you need to have some form of behavioral/cultural assessment as part of the interview process. Depending on how much time you have to interview (and I suggest you take the time if you're going to hire someone!) the "standard" dev interview can do pretty well at weeding out candidates who clearly lack basic skills. Joel Spolsky is a proponent of this and I agree. I've found that passion is a great indicator of future success, and you can usually get a good quick read on whether they are serious about software development by asking people about their favorite projects, what they spend their time working on, and what interesting things they see happening in the field.
• haploid 16y ago
  Too bad this site's domain name wasn't issued by the Iceland TLD registry.
  • Udo 16y ago
    What's your point? You realize it's an anonymous publishing service that, although being awesome, has nothing to do with the article at hand?
    • amurmann 16y ago
      No humor on HN allowed!
      • amurmann 16y ago
        I am getting down votes for this?! WTF? Look at the domain name and understand the original post, before downvoting! Think and then act!
        • amurmann 16y ago
          Yeah, keep downvoting me and don't even have the curtesy to write a comment as to why!
          • Udo 16y ago
            Disclaimer: I'm not downvoting you but I believe you are being downvoted because people thought the original joke was offtopic and not all that funny. I mean, are you seriously defending the honor of a penis joke here? Don't take it personally. I know it's hard sometimes... (almost no pun intended)
          • gruseom 16y ago
            You're being downvoted because you broke two explicit guidelines (the last two here: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html - you should probably read these as a linked list, not an array) as well as an informal one, that this community frowns on superficial one-liners. It's not that people here hate humour, it's that they're sensitive to how other online communities deteriorated once such comments became the norm. They are like weeds that spread rapidly and choke out the flowers and vegetables. A few weeds are ok, amusing even, but they don't make for a satisfying crop. The weeds are one problem (users here do a pretty good job of rooting them out); a harder one is the crops themselves getting more mediocre.
• amurmann 16y ago
  Why not just pair with the interviewee for half a day or a day? You will learn how they think and work and if you like them. It's a riddle to me. I've never heard from anyone actually trying it and not being happy with the insight won.
  • cageface 16y ago
    I'm a lot more interested in how someone breaks down an architectural problem than I am in how well they can implement heap sort on a whiteboard. The closer the interview is to real coding the more you learn. Of course, github is the real resume now.
    • amurmann 16y ago
      Why not pair on whatever you would be working on anyway. I usually have to solve many architectural problems every day but honestly never had to implement a heap sort all my life. So there should be ample opportunity for an interviewee to show his architecture-fu
    • smlacy 16y ago
      I think it's got to be more than just github for the resume. There are tons of other open sources of data. Personal blogs, twitter feeds, even things like delicious links can be indicative of what a potential candidate is thinking. My new startup is focusing on doing exactly this --- bringing together as many sources about engineers together as possible, and putting them all in one place. It's still very early, but I'd love HN's feedback. http://proovn.com http://proovn.com
  • krakensden 16y ago
    Because with a large codebase, you're not going to be particularly productive on the first day? I mean, it's better for web projects with a framework and set of conventions, but for, say, sizeable C++ applications it can be a serious hurdle.
• cpt1138 16y ago
  Speaking from personal experience, a bad job can leave your "passion" somewhat lacking. I think if you asked anyone I work with today, they would definitely describe me as passionate. There are indicators that I am doing well there. I can't agree more with this article. I absolutely hate doing tech interviews. I can not code under pressure. Even in the most high pressure situations with an outage or huge customer issue, I always take a step back, think, and try to see what else might be affected before doing anything. I hate tech interviews so much, that I never do them. I mostly do unconsciously what this article lays out. I would say personally I've experienced better than average hires if I happen to be positive on the person, doing what this article suggests in an interview. I have missed good people (was overridden) and have failed tons of tech interviews where I thought I would be an excellent fit on the other qualifications. You'll have to ask my co-workers if I'm good, but they tell me I am.
• emehrkay 16y ago
  While at my last job I was tasked with being apart of the interview process. My favorite question was "how do you keep up with web technology and trends? (web development)" and I was surprised at how many people had no answer for that simple question. My response to my manager was "this dude wont work"
  • markkanof 16y ago
    I've experienced the same thing while conducting interviews. The flip side is that some people have great answers and they often open up and show their passion for programming when they get to talk about the things that interest them and aren't as focused on how nervous they are trying to answer your question correctly. I've also has people tell me that they read the study guides for the Microsoft certification exams. I'm not trying to start an argument about the value of certifications. I think it is questionable though when asked how someone keeps up with the latest technology, they reply that they read books with content of questionable real world application, from a single company, that are updated every three or four years.
  • bugsy 16y ago
    My answer to that one would be "I've found it's more efficient to not keep up with the latest fads."
    • emehrkay 16y ago
      I would consider that a bad response if you kept it after probing simply because the sales dept likes to sell clients on the lates/greatest tech. And if you were a serious web dev, you'd have to keep up with it in some way. Assuming you are a web dev, Im sure you know which browsers support which html5 features, which ones play which video types natively, and the newest css3 tricks that everyone except probably IE supports. There is changing course with every shift in the wind and there is understanding which way the wind is blowing and charting your course based on the fuller picture. (and of course there is "the wind is blowing?")
    • sofal 16y ago
      That's understandable, if a little antagonistic. I'd probably probe further just to make sure your definition of "fad" is not "anything newer than Blub."
• joshu 16y ago
  A very candid self-analysis. Thank you.
• btmorex 16y ago
  Seems to me you just shouldn't ask typical "CS problems". The problem with those is that a positive result doesn't necessarily mean that the candidate knows anything. It could be that they've just interviewed so many times that they know a few common answers to memorize. I still think asking coding questions is extremely important. Programming is one job where you can actually test skill in the interview (unlike management for example, where you mostly have to rely on personality, work history, and references). I don't know why you woulnd't take advantage of that opportunity. As for culture fit, obviously you need to do that too, but that's somewhat orthogonal to what else you ask about in the interview.
  • aplusbi 16y ago
    If you assume the goal of an interview is to hire "good" people then you're right. If you assume the goal of an interview is to not hire "bad" people, then I think you're wrong. I think in practice it's almost impossible to determine if someone is a "good" hire based solely on an interview (regardless of technique). It is possible to determine is someone is a "bad" hire based on an interview however.
  • msluyter 16y ago
    I agree that these types of questions can lead to false positives, but what about the negatives? Don't these have some value as filters? After all, if I can't answer a simple question like string reversal, it suggests that I can't code AND I'm not enterprising enough to do some rudimentary Googling to practice technical interview questions.
• staunch 16y ago
  My current system is: 1) Simple programming challenge (< 30 minutes) by email. To see if they can actually write good code. Resume/age/experience/location mostly disregarded. 2) Casual discussion-style interview to get to know how they think and behave. 3) Short term contract with a predefined project (< 3 months) to see how they work over time. 4) Full time hire with salary + equity.
  • tptacek 16y ago
    If (3) is working for you, great; however, bear in mind that it's a seller's market for talent right now. I'd neg an offer contingent on doing a 3 month contract first, and I'd advise my friends to do the same; why should I shoulder that risk, if there are 2-3 other good positions open that will take it on for me by offering FT right away?
    • gommm 16y ago
      I think the problem between tptacek and me and the others arguing is that many of us are not from the USA... The USA being an At-Will employment system, there is not as much downside with hiring someone full time and the health care issue is specific to the US...
    • ams6110 16y ago
      I don't know if it's the same everywhere, but a 90-day "probationary" period is absolutely commonplace in the USA. Not sure I see much difference.
      • kenjackson 16y ago
        I've never seen that in the US. I should add that to our hiring agreements! But I do agree with the other poster. Most high quality devs I know, worth their weight, won't sign on for that. Their view is that its a slap in the face from day one, and disrespect like that from management never gets better over time.
        • tptacek 16y ago
• jasonwatkinspdx 16y ago
  The only hiring process I have found to work for developers is to sit down and work on real code together. This gets to the heart of the matter, and you very quickly feel out someone's knowledge, ability, and most importantly, how well they collaborate on a problem. Because in a startup you will need collaboration, and likely under the highest stress moments you've seen in your life. I also feel like this gives applicants a much better opportunity to learn about their possible future company and coworkers, and whether they themselves would like the fit. If you have not done this sort of interview, even if you have never pair programmed, try it out. It's very effective. What I'm still trying to learn, is what screening process to use ahead of this. Sadly, you can't invite everyone for an on site day long interview. The best I've come to is to look at what applicants have made on their own time or alternately how they talk over the phone about topics and problems they're excited about. Resumes are nearly useless.
  • SkyMarshal 16y ago
    I wonder if you could give them access to a custom subdomain of a test site and tell them to build a web app, anything they want, and upload it. Give a suitable time limit, a day to a week, depending on how much you want to see and whether they already are a full-time employee or student. Then screen based on what people came up with. That's a bit more involved than the lighter-weight solution in the same vein - remote coding tests facilitated by a collaborative website. But it's something I haven't heard of yet.
    • roel_v 16y ago
      Right, that's because no sane prospect (or rather, a prospect you'd want to hire) would go along with it. A reasonably competent developer has several options to choose from - it's just not rational to spend 10+ hours on each job opening; you wouldn't be able to coordinate and assess 5 or so offers in a reasonable time (when looking for a new job, people will apply at various places, compare the offers and take the best one). Most competent people would scoff at a suggestion like this, and I suspect that competent employers know it.
      • 16y ago
• ianbishop 16y ago
  I never really understood why companies don't just take a non-trivial real problem that they have run into during development. Just ask the candidate to talk it out, see if they are able to at least get on their feet toward a solution or an idea of possible solutions. I've never hired anyone, but I can tell you that I could write a linked list in a handful of languages. I can also tell you that it doesn't say much about what I know (or perhaps more importantly, don't). Problem solving is what is important, more important than ability to write code on a whiteboard.
• sp_ 16y ago
  I worked for a German startup too and our main problem was not vetting interviewees but finding people who want to interview at all. In the five year history of the company I think only one single person was hired who was not already friends with someone at the company. Other people just never applied. I remember manning the booth at one of those college campus events and it was very lonely. I probably talked to three students that day. Nobody followed up with us. I even had the distinct feeling that students avoided eye-contact with us and made beelines for the booths of the big established companies. In the end, our hiring interview process for interns was 'do you want to work for us? yes? you're in' and for full-time applicants it was simply non-existent. I think in the last three years we did not interview a single person. I often wondered why that is but I have never found a good answer. In the end it worked out for us. The company was acquired by Google. Still, I would have liked to have some applicants and interviews once in a while because I keep reading so much about them and I wanted to practice being an interviewer to avoid pitfalls as described in the article.
  • Tichy 16y ago
    Was your company offering "business solutions" by any chance? I remember once walking across an IT fair in Munich and being floored at the extreme boringness of all the company banners. They all seemed to provide "solutions" - whatever, no details about what they were doing (solutions for what?), nothing special going on. My brain was completely drained after the walk. Just saying, maybe a better presentation could help. Also working in a software company is a kind of dreadful outlook, even today (neon lights, specs filled with hundreds of pages, dreary meetings...).
    • joelhaasnoot 16y ago
      Business solutions is indeed just a fancy word for trying to make overcomplicated products with too many features and overcharging unknowing businesses. Business solutions is much shorter. Looking for a job soon, but job fairs seem very counter-productive to me: websites give a much better impression and idea of possibilities and lead to faster filtering of options.
  • mrich 16y ago
• KeyBoardG 16y ago
  Totally agreed. As a team lead I've hired my best talent with interviews like this.
• chopsueyar 16y ago
  When I hire a developer, I ask him about the scene in 'The Social Network' with the Winklevoss twins, and ask if he knew Armie Hammer's face was CG'ed to another actors body. Depending on his answer, I know right there whether to end the phone interview, or fly him to the Valley so I can see him write code on a whiteboard.
  • mafro 16y ago
    WTF has a CG'd face got to do with anything? Seriously, I'd like to know (I've never seen that film either).
    • m0nastic 16y ago
      I'm pretty sure he's making a joke about this other article that got submitted: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2384499 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2384499 in which someone mentions that they use people's opinions about whether or not they side with the Winklevoss twins in the movie as to whether or not they would be a good co-founder. I actually thought this comment was pretty funny, but if you didn't read the earlier article, it probably doesn't make any sense.
      • chopsueyar 16y ago
        You got it, dude.
  • btilly 16y ago
    I guarantee with that hiring process, that you will not want to work with me. Given your interview process, the feeling is likely to be mutual. (I don't watch TV or most movies, haven't seen The Social Network, and have no interest in doing so. If that is what you value, then I'm going to be a poor fit from both sides.)
    • enjo 16y ago
      I think he was making a joke about a submission here a day or two ago...
• michaelchisari 16y ago
  Despite having written tens of thousands of lines of open source code, I have yet to have an interviewer who has looked at that code and asked me about it.
  • mryall 16y ago
    Do you mention it in your resume or cover letter? We try to look up information about people (blogs, open source contributions, etc.) before or between interview rounds, but it depends on how much the candidate pushes it and how much time the interviewer has to look into it. Just having committed to an open source project would put you way ahead of most of the people we interview.
  • limist 16y ago
    That speaks volumes about the interviewer(s) and their company. Did no one look at your resume before speaking with you?? If not, that's inexcusably inefficient.
  • yannk 16y ago
    Really? That's the most surprising thing I've read today. As an interviewer, Open Source contribution is one of the first thing I look for about a candidate.
    • JoshCole 16y ago
      I think most people look for it, but that the poster is talking about due diligence. It is easy to read that someone contributed to open source and give them brownie points. It takes a bit of effort to find the work they did, figure out what its doing, and determine whether they actually did a good job. People try to conserve their mental resources, so they don't always put in that effort.
  • zlopid 16y ago
    Whenever I see a resume with open source code, I always visit and try to read some of their code. I rarely ask them about it (there's little time), but it does inform which questions I want to ask in the interview and my overall impression of their skills.
• jacques_chester 16y ago
  My previous employer (http://thefrontiergroup.com.au http://thefrontiergroup.com.au) had a process where candidates would come and spend a day onsite. You'd be paid for the day. The process was to work together with a senior coder on problems of escalating difficulty. Starting with 1.upto 10 do |i| { print i } "What does this do?" And ending with "Here's a legacy application we maintain. Add a new widget to the dashboard. Think aloud." During the day you had lunch with the team. Even so, that process didn't work perfectly for them. They hired me and about 6 months later they decided to fire me. Subsequently they've focused on hiring people they already knew. For example, they've hired Darcy Laycock (http://sutto.net/ http://sutto.net/), who they've known through the Rails community for years. ... and in all fairness I'd sack about 5 of me to get a Darcy on board.
  • blub 16y ago
    Erm... why did they fire you?
    • jacques_chester 16y ago
      I've wondered about that myself. I wanted to stay, I liked it there. But it's like many relationships in life, if both parties don't want it, it won't pan out. Edit: I also had to take time off for studies and I suspect they really wanted all-hands-on-deck.
      • rfrey 16y ago
        If a person is fired from a company, and that person doesn't really know why, it is not a plaudit for that company or the managers involved.
        • jacques_chester 16y ago
          In their defence, they were new to having to manage people they didn't already know -- which is probably why they went back to hiring people they already knew.
        • 16y ago
• MichaelGG 16y ago
  Writing code is just another type of conversation. Sure, you're going to ask many questions. Having a candidate code a bit in front of you, going back and forth, provides a lot of info. As far as "CS puzzles" - binary search, trees, linked lists, hashtables, etc: None of those should be puzzles. If you're giving interviews that people can "memorize" an answer to, then the problem is how you're doing the interview. A proper conversation, including code, will quickly sort out if the person just memorized a one-line Haskell quicksort, or actually knows what they're talking about.
  • bugsy 16y ago
    Do you actually find people that expect candidates to implement quicksort? I've certainly implemented it, but there's no way I have it memorized, it's not an obvious algorithm at all. I'd be flabbergasted to be asked to implement it from memory with no warning. It seems clear to me that one would be testing for if the person happened to have looked at the algorithm recently, not if they were competent.
    • nandemo 16y ago
      It's not such an arcane algorithm. Choose a pivot element, (say) p. Rearrange the array into left_sub_array + [p] + right_sub_array such that all elements of left_sub_array are no greater than p, and all elements of right_sub_array are greater than p. Then recursively sort the left and right sub-arrays. If you don't remember this, it's OK. If I was the interviewer I'd still give you the description above and see if you could implement it. Most candidates cannot.
    • adrianN 16y ago
      As long as you don't want to do it in-place, it's actually very easy to code.
    • kaiwetzel 16y ago
      In college ("computer science part A",using Haskell) we played out the various sorting algorithms we learned in class, with students holding up a number (to determine sorting order). Neat to actually experiencing the slowness of bubblesort vs. mergesort/quicksort ;) We repeated the performance in front of a local mall - I can't recommend trying something like that in a crowded place from that experience. I think expecting recent CS graduates to implement a basic sorting algorithm or binary search, etc. (say, in a garbage collected language they know well) is reasonable, for people with actual work experience I think it makes less sense and the focus should be on more recent experience if relevant to the job.
• grahammather 16y ago
  Thank you for posting this! This really resonated with me.
• Osiris 16y ago
  It seems that one simple thing you could ask is for usernames or profiles on sites like StackOverflow or other programming related websites to see what kinds of contributions or questions they've been asking.
  • mc2k 16y ago
    I think websites like Stack Overflow, GitHub and HackerNews attract a certain type of programmer, which might not always be the sort of person a business is looking for. Or, at least, it will exclude a lot of people who aren't interested in being involved with online development communities. That is, they are too hardcore.
    • smlacy 16y ago
      Yes, but there are tons of other data sources out there, right? For example, how many developers are members of mailing lists for a given API, service, language, tool, etc.? How many contribute? Plus, that doesn't even include the world of personal blogs, twitter accounts, etc. I think we're entering an age for software engineers where expressing yourself externally is going to be even more important than your resume. For example, a really intelligent, well-thought-out post like the one linked above can really move you forward in your career. I'm focusing on making a startup that captures all this stuff and uses it for both display and matching candidates. I'm still in the very early stages and would love some feedback! http://proovn.com http://proovn.com
• damovisa 16y ago
  My last interview process was intense: 1. A write-a-document test. I was given a fairly simple (contrived) scenario over the phone and was asked to write specs and a deployment plan with a deadline of an hour. 2. A programming test. Again, a description given over the phone and someone available to answer questions if I had them. After delivery, there was a followup programming task to extend it from a client app to a web app. It took about 8 hours in total. Provided you're willing to put in the time (and I was), it seemed to be an excellent way of judging whether I could really do the work they needed me to.
  • bugsy 16y ago
    I hope they made sure to get you to sign a copyright transfer for the work.
• bugsy 16y ago
  The spare time issue is an interesting one. One one side we have companies saying that they look for programmers who are working on projects after they get off work and on weekends. On the other side we have companies having employees sign a contract claiming that everything they do 24/7 belongs to the company. Often both sides are the same company. It's not an issue for me only because I work for my own firm, something I had to do to get out of such bizarre situations. But it's an issue for many programmers who are told that working on their own projects is stealing time and mental energy from the company. I can certainly sympathize with the talented developer who, told that the company owns all his private projects done in his own time on his own equipment, simply chooses to leave at 5 and spend time with his family rather than have passionate private work seized and shelved by a firm who had nothing to do with its creation. It's really the rational choice if you think about it and something very valuable in a developer is rational thinking.
  • PlayerJ 16y ago
    To be honest everywhere that I have applied as a programmer has either had the 24/7 rule or a contract so unspecific that it leads me to think that they will try to take ownership of something I write if it does indeed lead to a valuable product. As such I am usually working on projects in my free time but I rarely want to tell them about a real project for fear of them trying to take it. It creates a difficult situation in an interview, when I have projects but I dont want to discuss them.
    • khafra 16y ago
      Have you tried asking for a written addition to the contract saying work you do on your own time, unrelated in subject to what you do for the company, belongs to you? Contracts aren't always necessarily one-size-fits-all, and if that's the only thing keeping you from a good job it might be an option worth exploring.
  • perlgeek 16y ago
    Since this is a story from a German company... such a 24/7 clause can't be enforced in .de, it's void. The company can claim inventions you made during work hours, and can forbid you to compete with them directly in your free time. That's it.
• dminor 16y ago
  I once decided to skip the standard programming problem during the interview process, and I ended up regretting it extremely. The person we hired was nice, and a good "culture" fit, but couldn't code for beans. We had to let them go and I felt pretty bad about it. Programming questions certainly aren't the be all and end all, but as a filter they are useful.
  • jharjono 16y ago
    Programming questions seem also useful for companies trying to make a good impression on the candidates. I find that companies with really interesting technical questions are more likely to spark my interest than companies whose hardest question is "How would you reverse a string in Java?"
• deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
• okaramian 16y ago
  Definitely agree with this post. I've been interviewing for the last couple months and one of the better/more fair interviews I've had involved a nice back and forth (mostly the types of questions posed in the article, including a lot of stuff about my outside projects). Then they brought me in for a tech interview where they plunked me down in front of a computer to architect a small application for a type of problem I might encounter on the job. I thought it was fair and it probably gave them reasonable insight into how I code/think/present my solutions. I've had a lot of "write a linked list" style and they're draining. The quality of the applicant being pulled in to do CS trivia is going to be all over the place since that type of an interview can be gamed fairly easy if someone has a desire to do so.
• tt 16y ago
  In my previous "day" job, I probably interviewed more than 100 candidates and hired about 15-20. Here's what worked for me: 1. Phone screen (~45-60 mins). I'd spent ~15 mins going over what the company does, what the work environment is like, the team structure, the personalities, the technologies, etc... I'd try to "sell" our opportunity to jazz up the candidate and get them at least curious and hopefully very interested. I'd weave in a little of why-are-you-changing-job, what-was-your-experience-like, or what-would-you-prefer, and then ultimately we spent the majority of time on a recent project that he/she can talk about in depth. I pushed on a few related technical aspects to those projects to see if the candidate could clearly explain himself/herself technically. 2. First round (1.5-2 hrs). If I liked the candidate's potential after the phone screen, I'd invite him/her to our office to meet me and another engineer. We'd go into more depth about their recent project(s), and then go through a design/code exercise for a web application (the company builds web apps). The exercise was very open-ended (there's really no one correct way to do it). The design/coding choice depended on many factors, and we helped steer the conversations so the candidate could talk about those factors and what he/she would do to handle each of them (including when not to handle certain situations). Along the way, we also probed into how he/she would work with other team members, how/whether to "challenge" another colleague, what/if any development process he/she would follow. There was no trickery, no reversing a string, no linked lists. But I might ask how one would deal with concurrency conditions (two users trying to claim a single resource), how to scale with traffic, etc... The candidate was encouraged to ask questions throughout the interview. It was a two-way street after all. 3. Second round (another 1.5-2 hrs). If first round went well, I'd invite the candidate back to meet a few other employees (e.g., another engineer, a Product Manager, a designer for example). I asked these other employees to ask anything they'd like, but at the end be able to tell me if this candidate would a) be smart, b) get things done, and c) have right cultural fit. If anyone had strong objection from this round, it almost always resulted in no-hire. Equally important to hiring well is to let employees go quickly if they don't fit. That's a separate subject worth its own post.
• vladhorby 16y ago
  I get a really good insight in the candidate's programming skills by pair-programming a simple problem with them. For TDD, I write a test and ask him / her to write the code to make it pass (then repeat, refactor). That way, I can see how fluent they are in the programming language, at the same time evaluate their problem solving skills and see how they work in a team.
  • yxhuvud 16y ago
    I have had that happen to me a few times. They used vim and textmate. As an emacsian that didn't have any firm understanding of those editors, it was .. frustrating. Lots of times with 'oops, what did I do now?'.
• civilian 16y ago
  s/'Me and my cofounder'/'My cofounder and I' But it was a really good article besides that! Sorry for being a grammar german.
• ScottBurson 16y ago
  >But how did the candidates we selected measure up? The truth is, we got very mixed results. Many of them were average, very few were excellent, and some were absolutely awful fits for their positions. So at best, the interview had no actual effect on the quality of people we were selecting, and I'm afraid that at worst, we may have skewed the scale in favor of the bad ones. This doesn't follow at all! Consider, as is surely the case, that only a small fraction of the applicants would have turned out to be average to excellent. The interview process can filter out the vast majority of the sub-average applicants and still leave you with a significant fraction of sub-average employees.
• tripa 16y ago
  What does 'I only went "full Trump" once on an employee.' mean?
  • mattm 16y ago
    I'm assuming it means outright firing someone.
    • Udo 16y ago
      Yes, it does. Sorry, it's a bad allusion to an even worse reality TV show. What it means is that letting people go happens. Usually, when people were underperforming or showing other signs of problems, I just talked with them to clear up what the matter was. Sometimes, they had personal problems, or other temporary and resolvable issues. Sometimes, they were unhappy and needed to be somewhere else. I remember one guy, an intern with horrible attitude, who said to me in confidence: "I regret this so much. I always wanted to become a baker, but my parents wanted me to have a real job." I kid you not! The point is, it has been my experience that even layoffs can be borderline mutual. But this once, the latest screw-up in a long line of screw-ups... it was so monumental and malicious even. Worst of all was I felt kind of powerless, having this adversarial force on my team. Like a Trojan horse that wasn't even making an effort to disguise itself. I fired the guy on the spot. Of course, you can't do that in Germany, so eventually I paid through the nose for it following the lawsuit. But in that split second it was worth it just to have this guy off the floor immediately.
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• eaxitect 16y ago
  Here's my 2c's on this as a 12 yrs Software Eng and a startup founder: 1) Software development is a TEAM work, so asking one questions like "how did you design this or that" is just pointless. We did design that on that specific period of time...Our motivation was ... 2) Good Developers Copy, Great Developers Steal (altered from P.Picasso), so we all use Google, HN, GitHub, wikipedia and alike to innovate our solution, so if you ask me B-Tree algos, I'm sorry, but I've to look at wikipedia... 3) Hiring process is just a scumbag for both parties, you impose big, the other party imposes big. So what? You're not Google, and he's not Kevin Mitnick... 4) I think, companies should try to get the personality, not the KLOCs of applicants. If you gonna ask programming puzzles, please be authentic and ask something related to you. Not just copy a Googlr interview question because you liked it.
• usaar333 16y ago
  I have to disagree about the uselessness of a technical interview. I'm 100% with RethinkDB that any competent programmer should be able to figure out how to reverse a singly-linked list in some reasonable time. (http://www.rethinkdb.com/blog/2010/06/will-the-real-programmers-please-stand-up/ http://www.rethinkdb.com/blog/2010/06/will-the-real-programm...). " Some were shooting their pre-canned answers at me with unreasonable speed." This should not be possible for all questions in a technical interview. Especially if you are a startup, you can use your own original problems, especially ones you've actually had to solve. Aim for actual coding questions though rather than too puzzling ones that are often just memorized (implement quicksort, detect cycle in linked list in O(1) space, the random puzzles companies love to ask). Of the people I've worked with, there is a high correlation to job performance to performance in a tech interview. (which for new grads is strongly correlated to their college CS grades). Of course, passion is also a decent indicator, but it is highly correlated with raw competance. That said, I wouldn't hire anyone lacking either. Disclaimer: I'm coming from the background of a systems company. For those making CRUD apps, tough coding questions might be less relevant.
  • BrandonM 16y ago
    > I have to disagree about the uselessness of a technical interview. I'm 100% with RethinkDB that any competent programmer should be able to figure out how to reverse a singly-linked list in some reasonable time. (http://www.rethinkdb.com/blog/2010/06/will-the-real-programm... http://www.rethinkdb.com/blog/2010/06/will-the-real-programm...). I had the initial phone interview with RethinkDB and they were asking me questions about what is a B tree and how to use them to implement a filesystem/database, what is the pros and cons of structure A vs. structure B, etc. I understand wanting the best of the best, people who have implemented filesystems before, etc., but I think it's pretty unrealistic to expect someone three years out of college who has not been working in the same area of specialization to just know this stuff off the top of his head. Wouldn't it be much more realistic to basically give someone the Wikipedia entry for various data structures, tell them something about the data and workflows, and then ask which structure(s) they would use and why? After that interview, I was sure I wasn't getting the job, but I wasn't very upset. They seemed to have unreasonably high expectations, and that's not exactly the most healthy work environment.
• cdegroot 16y ago
  Fwiw, my current screening is: first resume screening, then I send candidates a simple programming exercise that sort of is in our domain. I can assess the delivered work in around five to ten minutes, so it scales well. Then a further skills/team fit check through interviews, and for those who survive that, the expensive bit: pairing with developers on actual production code. Especially the exercise works as a good screen. We get quite a number of "deafening silence" responses, which says something about the candidate's motivation. We also get responses where people try to show off alternative language skills but deliver something totally non-idiomatic. And we get good submissions, showing some patterns knowledge, unit testing, at cetera. These typically end up being hired.
• ez77 16y ago
  Their smart quotes are ”wrong“.
  • chrisbroadfoot 16y ago
    ❜❜Nice, but that doesn't work for large, successful companies. Your idea doesn't scale.❛❛
• ses 16y ago
  I couldn't agree more with the sentiments of this post. Apart from anything else 'software developers' vary massively in their core strengths and job positions require different strengths in the candidates. Skill in developing algorithms and solving puzzles on the fly is just one of those strengths. There are so many more in terms of software engineering practices, knowledge of programming patterns, awareness of different programming paradigms, ability to solve higher level problems / combine technologies effectively to solve a business problem rather than a low level programming problem etc.
• joakin 16y ago
  Bit offtopic but that CSS made reading the article a complete pleasure. With the mixture of nice readability and interesting content this post turns out as a really good essay.
• mncolinlee 16y ago
  I was very impressed when an employer used an open notes, take home exam in the second interview. Initially, they had tried a written, proctored exam during the first interview. Although I was the only candidate among many who did not claim any experience in the actual technologies listed in the position, I was also the only candidate who turned in the take home exam. I also completed my working code in 8 hrs rather than the week time limit. The others all quit the exam at various stages because they did not possess the tenacity to hunt down technical knowledge online required to implement the proof of concept software. At the third interview, they asked me how I came to my solution and why I chose certain methods in order to validate that I completed the work myself. This seemed like an great alternative to other exam experiences I'd had. At another interview, a non-technical company officer asked me a technical question and then couldn't explain it. The question was so opaque that it took thirty minutes of probing and badgering him to even understand the question. By this point, I was ready to write them off and leave. They lost their largest customer the next week and I would've been laid off if I'd joined them.
• androck1 16y ago
  Not sure I agree with the alternative, but besides that, I think the nail was hit directly on the head.
• Jeema3000 16y ago
  Knowing all about data structures and other computer science implementation-related stuff means exactly nothing if a person can't think creatively enough about how to approach a real-world problem to begin with. Those data structure CS questions are down in the weeds and you haven't even figured out if the person can get down to the weeds if you're asking those sort of questions in a first-round interview. I mean think about it: do you approach programming tasks top-down or bottom-up, usually? Critical thinking is the most important skill IMO, and it can only be tested by giving someone open-ended questions on how they would approach real-world assignments, preferably in a low-pressure take-home test kind of thing - again IMO...
• larsberg 16y ago
  "we ended up hiring the candidate with the smoothest answers" I mentioned this in another thread, but the point of coding questions is to see how they think about code, whether they understand how to walk through it (have a machine model), if they can pick out and evaluate edge cases, and how they can work with hints from you on how to improve their answer. Hiring based on ability to answer a particular problem is probably only a slightly better indicator of ultimate job success than height.
• dspeyer 16y ago
  The problem with "tell me about your projects" is that it doesn't distinguish good programmers from bad. It isn't even gaming. A programmer who makes a negative net contribution to a large project may sincerely feel he is responsible for its success. All you can pick up on is their perception. At least when you ask them to write code, you can tell if they got it right or wrong.
  • yannickt 16y ago
    You can actually learn a lot from a candidate's past projects if you know how to follow up with the right questions. Someone who had a negative net contribution on a project will not have anything interesting to say about the data structures or algorithms they used. They won't have interesting war stories to share either (e.g. nasty bug fix, conflict with management or team and how they overcame it, etc.).
• petenixey 16y ago
  I once learned a shocking lesson about the influence of my preconceptions when I accidentally took a developer through three rounds of interviews because he previously worked for Pivotal Labs and had a German (aka technical) accent. It wasn't until the third interview that I asked him to write an algorithm to sort an array and when he couldn't I suggested instead writing an algorithm to see whether the array was already sorted. When he couldn't do that either he told me I was asking the wrong questions and not letting him show off the code he was good at. To this day I have wondered and never discovered what type of code doesn't involve arrays, loops and comparisons however I do now ask candidates to write code right at the start of the interview loop. I simply never anticipated how many non-programmers would apply for programming positions.
  • enjo 16y ago
    I haven't written code to sort an array in nearly two decades of professional experience:) I've been lucky enough to work on some pretty non-trivial problems as well. If you asked me to do it, I could probably crank out some sort of bubble-sort (maybe). It's not to say I haven't sorted arrays, I certainly have, but whatever standard library I'm using almost always does it for me... and pretty damn well at the same time.
    • X9 16y ago
      While it is largely based on the context of the job, I'd think some demonstration of fundamentals, like sorting (even if it's just bubble sort :-)), is important. It's another way to see which mental tools the candidate can use when debugging problems and they're forced to drill down through the layers of abstraction provided.
• JerryH 16y ago
  Couldn't agree more. The focus that the short sighted interviewers and companies have on how fast your can solve some pointless algorithm that a CS has figured out 30 years ago, vs how you get on with the team I find mind boggling. http://www.jeremyhutchings.com/2010/11/interviewing-dating-for-techie-playing.html http://www.jeremyhutchings.com/2010/11/interviewing-dating-f...
• reubenyeah 16y ago
  I always find the emphasis put on algorithms 99.9% of developers will probably never have to implement after the interview totally astonishing.
• jyap 16y ago
  This is a great read. Exactly how I have approached hiring developers.
• carphill 16y ago
  Very lucid and reasoned argument that you make. I intend to blog about it, and my forthcoming experience of using it on my blog at: carphill.blogspot.com
• sl_a_sh 16y ago
  I just had a thought: How about having a phone round first, and ask all applicants to provide a sample of their coding skills, like suggested in the article. Then, in the second round you leave each applicant for a couple of minutes to analyze the code from someone else and find out what it does and what's so special about it. That way your work of looking into the code samples will be minimized. Even better, you'll get an idea of how well a coworker with a similar skillset can cope with that code. You can also judge how well people are at dealing with code from their coworkers and don't have to come up with examples yourself. It does sound pretty good, no?
• AlekseyB 16y ago
  Hi there! Good article, I've seen similar situation in several companies too. Few words about one startup-like company(based in Kiev, Ukraine) I have been working for 1 year as developer. It was focusing on .NET Enterprise apps. Their interview approach: - 1st day: tech-interview via phone(0.5-1hr); - 2nd day: (companies office) simple technical tests(choose-right-answer on paper), short technical interview(technology basics, fizz-buzz tasks, sql-tasks, usually join/group-by, having-based), coding-task on laptop(the most significant and essential(for evaluating developer) part of whole interviewing process write application for calculating bowling scores, Console app or GUI application - no matter, for candidates choice, time-bounds - for candidates choice; rules were provided and explained to each candidate + full access to internet resources + possibility to ask interviewer == real working environment); - 3rd day: final technical interview(patterns, OOP, code-design, etc.), general interview with CEO; When I came to it, there were 3 devs(including me). The next(after me) developer were hired after ~60 interviewed fellows. Yeah, the total interview time is tend to be long and hard, as for candidate such as for company, BUT in such way were established the best TEAM I had honor to work in. Thanks for attention:) Cheers Aleksey
• rdorfner 16y ago
  Well stated and pretty much spot on, with one exception... The notion about "Programmers who are good program all the time, even in their spare time." It has been my personal observation that this period of "Programming is the only thing worth doing with your life" (And yes, I know I am paraphrasing this in an unkind interpretation of what you said, I'm not doing it to be mean though, I'm doing it to illustrate a point) is true, for the first 5 to 7 or 8 years of a programmer's career. The reason seems to be that the deep fascination with what makes programming interesting as a career, continues to hold them even in the evening hours when they are at home. When not actually programming, they talk about programming, or programming problems or some aspect of computers and computing technology, when they can find friends to talk about it with, that is. However, the basic drive behind this seems to be finding out as much as you can possibly find out about your chosen field or niche within the field. After that time period, though, something interesting happens. The MYSTERY of it all, starts to fade. You begin to see patterns in how things work, and similarities in how things are done, or are implemented, or can be implemented. Other interests start to take hold and after a while, family life starts to become important as well. At least, for a well balanced human, it does. And that, I think, becomes my major point. The kinds of programmers who live eat breathe and drink programming, non stop, past this time period, are RARE, and usually are not well socially adjusted. This is something that I think is not accounted for when interviewing more experienced software engineers. When looking at the scads of job openings for folks with 3 to 5 years of experience, your methodology and assumptions should work well, however, when you are looking for that really senior guy or gal who has been doing this for over 20 years, then the methodology, in my opinion, will not yield to you the best results. ie. teasing out the best candidate from the stack. As an aside, I once told this to a young friend of mine who I met in college. I had already been programming for nearly ten years when I returned to school to get my bachelors in CompSci. I was always fascinated with just HOW MUCH he would go on and gush about computers, tech, sun workstations, sgi's, their hardware, their software, how to program them, linux and unix tricks etc etc.. One day I smiled and said to him. "I'll give you 5 to 7 years, and this utter all consuming fascination with computers will tone down to seeing them as nothing more than tools." He denied it, vehemently, he would NEVER have computers be something so mundane! It was, about 7 years later that I got an email from him where he told me "You were right." He's a googler now, and was one of the lucky ones who was in early, pre ipo and can now retire if he wants to. I myself tried getting into google, but made some mistakes in the interview process, trying to be 'clever'. It backfired, but that's okay. And not once did they ever ask me anything about what it is I do, or what I do best, or what I was interviewing for, board bring up, device drivers and kernel porting. Things which I'm very good at and have done for over 25 years. Anyways, just my .02, your mileage may vary! Sincerely, Richard Dorfner
• am_a_droid 16y ago
  Hello Mr. Schroeter, I have enjoyed your post on DZone (http://www.dzone.com/links/r/hiring_developers_youre_doing_it_wrong.html http://www.dzone.com/links/r/hiring_developers_youre_doing_i...) and have decided to let you know about it. This topic of 'interviewing the right candidate' has always intrigued me. I have always wondered if the superstars amongst the technology-driven companies have devised a surefire method to pick the right candidate from thousands! In my experience, the decision to go for a candidate or not, is very subjective as you have mentioned. At a certain point in time during the interview, one listens to a inner voice and decides between 'Yeah!' or 'Nah!' and not always that decision is based on pure facts: precise answers to precise questions. But, to know the personality of a programmer - through some questions and possible answers in an hour's conversation - is a difficult task. You have not mentioned if you had cracked it finally in your star-up or your later efforts/engagements. I will be keen to know. I am based in India currently. Here, because of the business success of the IT Service companies, most of the companies try to follow their business model. However, about 95% of the work that these companies take up are low-tech, mostly repetitive and disincentivize breakthrough technical work. Their need for good programmers is not much; they are content to see that the client is that much happy to keep the projects continuing: that is the main objective. Moreover, you seem to say that 'scaling' is not an insurmountable problem. It probably is, if you see that the Indian IT service companies cite hiring figures in tens of thousands in an year. So, the interview process that these companies stick to, aims to find out how much is the probability that the candidate is going to prove himself a misfit. Subjective, as usual; for a good measure, the companies take in people in huge numbers simply hoping that the probability of a 'good fit' increases. For a bit more experienced people, it is almost always aimed to find out if the candidate can 'manage' a team, and certainly not whether the candidate understands the world of programming at all. I work as a freelancer and in India, that doesn't help me. I claim to know and understand what it takes to 'design' and 'develop' a good piece of software. More than that, I carry a certain amount of intensity about the whole act of programming and usefulness of well-written programs, even at this advanced age. However, that doesn't interest most of the potential employers because a good programmer - who knows some but is eager to work in a team where people know more than he does - is not valued as much. Importantly, it requires a keen pair of eyes to spot these qualities and that is largely missing. Recently, situation here has made me so despondent that I have begun to look for opportunities outside India, Europe in particular (I have stayed and worked there before, hence the bias). I am hoping that there will be some people out there who will take some interest in not only what I know and have done, but how fast I can know more and can do if I join them. I am looking for those keen pair of eyes. Agreed that there are those issues of geographical distance and visa papers etc., but if someone finds me suitable, s/he may want to go that extra mile. If you have read till this point, thanks for your patience. I read your post at a moment when I was in despair and wanted to demonstrate that your post chimed with me. Warm regards -- Nirmalya (sengupta.nirmalya@gmail.com) -- Software Technologist http://www.linkedin.com/in/nirmalyasengupta http://www.linkedin.com/in/nirmalyasengupta
• utahmadmike 16y ago
  Great article! For 15 years I have conducted interviews and been the victim of the interview process. Your article sounds familiar; I have been telling my wife the same thing (out of frustration) for years. On several occasions I have made it through 3 or 4 levels of the interview process and then blocked in the final interview-step by an insecure or egotistical technical person. I would add the following (problem) points as well. * Some technical people like to hire clones of themselves, creating conflict and diversity issues. * Some technical people, conducting the interview, use the interview process to posture and show how smart they (the interviewer) are. * According to the BLS, the demand for programmers is decreasing while demand for analysts is increasing. Programming has changed a lot with tools like intellisense and included libraries. * If you can’t answer the question, "why did you ask that question?", you should not ask the question. Each interview question should have a specific targeted purpose. I hope my additions help. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-pritchard/3/93b/4ba http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-pritchard/3/93b/4ba
  • utahmadmike 16y ago
    Also: * Realize that answers to questions like "what is abstraction" might vary from one text book to the next. * Establish context for your interview questions. I was once asked "What is Application?" (too vague). In response I said, "In what context?" The interviewer smugly said, "What comes to mind?" . . . He did not like my answer. Hum?
• timedoctor 16y ago
  I think interviewing altogether is an ineffective way of evaluating people. And the whole process of interviewing and hiring staff members is an outdated, slow bureaucratic way of doing things. Instead why not work with several people on small projects, ask 5 people to do 2-4 weeks of paid contract work for you and then select the person who was the best fit for longer term work. This tests the real world skills of a person much more effectively than an interview.
• acp20 16y ago
  As a former head of HR for three successful start-ups and now as the founder of my own, I (in the words of our former president) feel your pain. I've reviewed 10's of thousands of resumes and interviewed over 1,000 candidates so I know what you're going through. Your points are well taken and insightful - and while they're especially true of technical hiring, they are also applicable for all start-up hiring. A smart person can learn the tech skills you need but it is impossible to impart passion and an intuitive understanding of culture where it isn't already present. I eventually honed my interviews down to one question: "Please describe your most significant team accomplishment, where you were a key member of the team." Then I'd follow that with numerous follow up questions until I really understood the person's role. This will uncover the candidate's passions, communications skills, leadership abilities, and their technical prowess. Then I'd ask the same question about another accomplishment. Good luck. I'll write you a note on the side with my contact info. I'd be happy to talk over any "people stuff" if you'd like.