4 ms·

It's frustrating because he is so close to really getting it. "Cancel culture" is not a thing, in my opinion, because the things that people cry are "cancelled

It's frustrating because he is so close to really getting it. "Cancel culture" is not a thing, in my opinion, because the things that people cry are "cancelled" are almost universally orthodox! - Gender critical feminism: the orthodox view that trans men are not men and trans women are not women - Rape, sexual assault, harassment: the orthodox view that women are the property of men (if you don't think this is orthodox, you should really study the history of laws around women) - Racism: the orthodox view that those of European decent deserve more and better (orthodox since Europe spent most of the last 500 years conquering and exploiting the rest of the planet) Because all of these things are orthodox and hurt others, it is a privilege you have to defend them. If you write a national NTY editorial that is explicitly and disgustingly racist, you will be fine! Racism is orthodox! Racists are in power everywhere! The president is racist! His friends are racists! Being "cancelled" is not a thing in this context! Meanwhile, if you speak out against violence against black bodies (which we know still happens because it never stopped happening!), the government will actively spy on and harass you, and in some cases there is evidence they will even kill you (https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-ferguson-activist-deaths-black-lives-matter-20190317-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-ferguson-acti...).

raxxorrax 6y ago
He doesn't refer to that when he writes orthodoxy. He is referring the spiral of purity some topics are subjected to. And to related rules for behavior and expression that actually leads to people getting canceled. Not everyone of those is innocent, but some certainly are. Just to be clear, canceling people because of social transgressions is not a new phenomenon and people most prominently executing it today are not the first to do so.
- wwright 6y ago
  The things I listed all involve supposed purity (whites are pure, virgin women are pure, gender nonconformism is sexual deviancy which is impure), rules for expression and behavior, and negative consequences for not following said rules.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    Yes, hence the term. But nobody is canceled from their job or social media for not being a virgin.
ballenf 6y ago
Why do you think he meant "orthodox" to be the majority or historical view? Never occurred to me that it could be interpreted that way.
- Miner49er 6y ago
  It's the more "conventional" views is what PG called it. I think that would almost always mean what the majority believes or what is traditional.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
"Orthodox" isn't global. Orthodox is only orthodox within a set of people. Gender critical feminism: the view that trans men are not men and trans women are not women is orthodox, if you look at all of history. It's orthodox in many parts of the US today. It's heresy in progressive circles. Women as property: that may have been orthodox historically. In almost all circles in the US, it's heresy today. Racism: it was orthodox historically. I would guess that in the majority of the US, it's heresy today - but it's orthodox in more circles than it should be. You seem to be mostly using historical examples. That's not particularly relevant - we don't live there now. What's relevant to our lives now is that, within a given circle of people we interact with now, there is an orthodoxy for that circle.
- wwright 6y ago
  I use the historical perspective to illuminate how far back the orthodoxy goes; we can‘t undo that orthodoxy within two or three generations. Women are raped, stalked, harassed, and murdered because men feel they are property, and they feel that way because of lingering orthodoxy. Black people are cut out of spaces and disallowed the same dignity as others because people feel they are uneducated or dangerous, and they feel that way because of lingering orthodoxy. Yes, the orthodoxy of one’s immediate circle is important, but human society is interwoven across many levels. Some orthodoxies result in uncomfortable Twitter arguments. Other orthodoxies lead to the election of a sociopathic dimwit who has led a completely failed pandemic response that has left 140,000 dead and triggered the greatest economic crisis of the last century (if not more). To say that a progressive orthodoxy is a threat at this time is to claim that a fire ant is a threat in a wildfire.
  - Tainnor 6y ago
    I am not from the US, so Trump does not really affect my directly that much and yet, when he got elected, I donated to the ACLU, I have been in numerous heated arguments about why I think he's cancerous to society and I would vote for Biden and would have voted for Hillary if I was American. Similarly, I've cut off contact with an uncle after it became clear he was supporting the homophobic backlash in Poland, I have unfriended people over non-stop blaming refugees for everything, I am in deep horror of gays being rounded up and killed in Chechnya and Uyghurs being interned in China, and so on. And yet, I am at the same time still perfectly capable to lament a deterioration of political discourse not only on the right, but on the left as well. You seem to assume that because people criticise "cancel culture", they think racism or sexual violence or homophobia are not also bad, and yes, also worse and more dangerous. But that is nothing more than a strawman. I've been strawmanned like this before and I find it just really tiring. I think Trump is worse than even the worst excesses of cancel culture. But that doesn't mean I can't still worry about the latter. And crucially, I do also believe that "cancel culture" only serves to drive more moderate right-wingers further and further into the fold of the far right. In some respects, I think Trump is a monster of the left's own creation. Luckily, where I live, politics is not yet as polarised as I perceive the US to be. But it's changing, I feel, and I partially blame US cultural influence for it.

raxxorrax 6y ago

He doesn't refer to that when he writes orthodoxy. He is referring the spiral of purity some topics are subjected to. And to related rules for behavior and expression that actually leads to people getting canceled. Not everyone of those is innocent, but some certainly are. Just to be clear, canceling people because of social transgressions is not a new phenomenon and people most prominently executing it today are not the first to do so.

wwright 6y ago
The things I listed all involve supposed purity (whites are pure, virgin women are pure, gender nonconformism is sexual deviancy which is impure), rules for expression and behavior, and negative consequences for not following said rules.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Yes, hence the term. But nobody is canceled from their job or social media for not being a virgin.

ballenf 6y ago

Why do you think he meant "orthodox" to be the majority or historical view? Never occurred to me that it could be interpreted that way.

Miner49er 6y ago
It's the more "conventional" views is what PG called it. I think that would almost always mean what the majority believes or what is traditional.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

"Orthodox" isn't global. Orthodox is only orthodox within a set of people. Gender critical feminism: the view that trans men are not men and trans women are not women is orthodox, if you look at all of history. It's orthodox in many parts of the US today. It's heresy in progressive circles. Women as property: that may have been orthodox historically. In almost all circles in the US, it's heresy today. Racism: it was orthodox historically. I would guess that in the majority of the US, it's heresy today - but it's orthodox in more circles than it should be. You seem to be mostly using historical examples. That's not particularly relevant - we don't live there now. What's relevant to our lives now is that, within a given circle of people we interact with now, there is an orthodoxy for that circle.

wwright 6y ago
I use the historical perspective to illuminate how far back the orthodoxy goes; we can‘t undo that orthodoxy within two or three generations. Women are raped, stalked, harassed, and murdered because men feel they are property, and they feel that way because of lingering orthodoxy. Black people are cut out of spaces and disallowed the same dignity as others because people feel they are uneducated or dangerous, and they feel that way because of lingering orthodoxy. Yes, the orthodoxy of one’s immediate circle is important, but human society is interwoven across many levels. Some orthodoxies result in uncomfortable Twitter arguments. Other orthodoxies lead to the election of a sociopathic dimwit who has led a completely failed pandemic response that has left 140,000 dead and triggered the greatest economic crisis of the last century (if not more). To say that a progressive orthodoxy is a threat at this time is to claim that a fire ant is a threat in a wildfire.
- Tainnor 6y ago
  I am not from the US, so Trump does not really affect my directly that much and yet, when he got elected, I donated to the ACLU, I have been in numerous heated arguments about why I think he's cancerous to society and I would vote for Biden and would have voted for Hillary if I was American. Similarly, I've cut off contact with an uncle after it became clear he was supporting the homophobic backlash in Poland, I have unfriended people over non-stop blaming refugees for everything, I am in deep horror of gays being rounded up and killed in Chechnya and Uyghurs being interned in China, and so on. And yet, I am at the same time still perfectly capable to lament a deterioration of political discourse not only on the right, but on the left as well. You seem to assume that because people criticise "cancel culture", they think racism or sexual violence or homophobia are not also bad, and yes, also worse and more dangerous. But that is nothing more than a strawman. I've been strawmanned like this before and I find it just really tiring. I think Trump is worse than even the worst excesses of cancel culture. But that doesn't mean I can't still worry about the latter. And crucially, I do also believe that "cancel culture" only serves to drive more moderate right-wingers further and further into the fold of the far right. In some respects, I think Trump is a monster of the left's own creation. Luckily, where I live, politics is not yet as polarised as I perceive the US to be. But it's changing, I feel, and I partially blame US cultural influence for it.