4 ms·

Apple has been in Ireland since the 1980's. A large fraction of an entire city (Cork) depend on it. It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more

Apple has been in Ireland since the 1980's. A large fraction of an entire city (Cork) depend on it. It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more than $14bn to the community, and country, in that time. And it's not a figure-head office either, it has assembly lines. Countries aren't all identical. Ireland needs to be allowed tune its economic policies based on what it has to offer. It doesn't have the population of France, or the location of Germany. It has english speakers and a reasonably well educated workforce, two factors that aren't unique to it. A low corporation tax policy counts for a lot.

m12k 6y ago
I agree that countries should be free to set their corporate tax rate to whatever they want to attract investment. But corporations should not be able to just shift their profits to any country, but sadly, using loopholes in international tax law, they can currently do so freely [1]. This means Ireland is not just taxing companies for the economic activity that goes on within its borders, it is also preventing taxation of economic activities in all other European countries. Furthermore, in the case at hand, while Ireland is free to set their tax rate to something low, like 12.5%, it needs to apply this to all companies, not allow any of them to fiddle their way to only paying 0.005% like Apple did. The commission considers this illegal state aid to a company, and I'd tend to agree. It's unfair competion when a company only operating in Ireland needs to pay 12.5% in corporate tax, while an international company with a creative ownership structure involving the Cayman Islands can pay effectively 0%. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_erosion_and_profit_shifting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_erosion_and_profit_shifti...
solarkraft 6y ago
> It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more than $14bn to the community, and country Even assuming that's the case (sounds far fetched to me), would that mean they now wouldn't have to pay a fair tax rate?
- ksec 6y ago
  >pay a fair tax rate? They would, but you have to define "fair" first.
  - m12k 6y ago
    How about 12.5% like all other Irish companies, not 0.005% like they managed to fiddle it down to?
    - scatters 6y ago
      0.05 percent of what?
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    Can i also define a fair tax rare that suits my ehim? Why am i paying taxes if they dont need to?
mikorym 6y ago
I also think that the solution, if you will, does require to take the idiosyncracies of a country into account. Many people may no realise this, but this exactly holds for African countries too. As the continent develops, some countries will become certain roleplayers that essentially are already apparent now, for those willing to go and look for it. South Africa is the financial capital of Africa, and it would do most people here good to emphasise that. It is an entry point into the rest of Africa (despite, or because of even, being the furthest away from Europe) and its long term trajectory is probably going to remain in what I guess we could call facilitation. If we compare SA to Ireland or Switzerland, again, they are countries that attempt to facilitate development. I think tax needs to be a topic in its own right, and the exact properties of a country is also a topic in its own right. Luxembourg will always be forced into a niche, and whether that niche is tax based on not depends on the options at their disposal. Wealthy people see tax as an expense just like any other and the onus is on ordinary people to build inherent value rather than simply financial value. But you need cultural momentum for this. South Africa's niche role is compounded by cultural and African factors and I am first in line of those that want a foundational based economy, rather than a facilitation based one. But you really need the will to work hard and build inherent value. My final point is simply that one can complain about countries that focus on tax (or tax evation) but the real question is: What else are the options. (And I'm sure there are opportunities waiting.)
rusk 6y ago
> A large fraction of an entire city (Cork) depend on it That is not true. They employee a few thousand people in an industrial estate outside a suburb of cork in fairly low ranking jobs. If they were to disappear overnight they would doubtless have an impact but not a fraction of €14bn
- secondcoming 6y ago
  Not these days perhaps, but back in the 1990's it would have. Who else was there, EMC? And if Apple did leave it's not unrealistic that the reasons that made them leave would also be on the minds of the other multinationals in the area.
  - rusk 6y ago
    IMO this sounds like fairly shaky ground to build your economy on
    - Supernaut 6y ago
      History demonstrates otherwise. Apple has had facilities in Ireland since 1979. Most of the Apple IIs that were sold in Europe were built in Cork.
      - rusk 6y ago
        You’re not on the same thread at all
        Supernaut 6y ago
        Whatever.
        rusk 6y ago
        Wow can’t believe you didn’t say “your mom”
    - 6y ago
chris_wot 6y ago
Double Irish with a Dutch sandwich... yum!
- pkaye 6y ago
  What about a Dutch crunch sandwich? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_bread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_bread

m12k 6y ago

I agree that countries should be free to set their corporate tax rate to whatever they want to attract investment. But corporations should not be able to just shift their profits to any country, but sadly, using loopholes in international tax law, they can currently do so freely [1]. This means Ireland is not just taxing companies for the economic activity that goes on within its borders, it is also preventing taxation of economic activities in all other European countries. Furthermore, in the case at hand, while Ireland is free to set their tax rate to something low, like 12.5%, it needs to apply this to all companies, not allow any of them to fiddle their way to only paying 0.005% like Apple did. The commission considers this illegal state aid to a company, and I'd tend to agree. It's unfair competion when a company only operating in Ireland needs to pay 12.5% in corporate tax, while an international company with a creative ownership structure involving the Cayman Islands can pay effectively 0%. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_erosion_and_profit_shifting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_erosion_and_profit_shifti...

solarkraft 6y ago

> It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more than $14bn to the community, and country Even assuming that's the case (sounds far fetched to me), would that mean they now wouldn't have to pay a fair tax rate?

ksec 6y ago
>pay a fair tax rate? They would, but you have to define "fair" first.
- m12k 6y ago
  How about 12.5% like all other Irish companies, not 0.005% like they managed to fiddle it down to?
  - scatters 6y ago
    0.05 percent of what?
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  Can i also define a fair tax rare that suits my ehim? Why am i paying taxes if they dont need to?

mikorym 6y ago

I also think that the solution, if you will, does require to take the idiosyncracies of a country into account. Many people may no realise this, but this exactly holds for African countries too. As the continent develops, some countries will become certain roleplayers that essentially are already apparent now, for those willing to go and look for it. South Africa is the financial capital of Africa, and it would do most people here good to emphasise that. It is an entry point into the rest of Africa (despite, or because of even, being the furthest away from Europe) and its long term trajectory is probably going to remain in what I guess we could call facilitation. If we compare SA to Ireland or Switzerland, again, they are countries that attempt to facilitate development. I think tax needs to be a topic in its own right, and the exact properties of a country is also a topic in its own right. Luxembourg will always be forced into a niche, and whether that niche is tax based on not depends on the options at their disposal. Wealthy people see tax as an expense just like any other and the onus is on ordinary people to build inherent value rather than simply financial value. But you need cultural momentum for this. South Africa's niche role is compounded by cultural and African factors and I am first in line of those that want a foundational based economy, rather than a facilitation based one. But you really need the will to work hard and build inherent value. My final point is simply that one can complain about countries that focus on tax (or tax evation) but the real question is: What else are the options. (And I'm sure there are opportunities waiting.)

rusk 6y ago

> A large fraction of an entire city (Cork) depend on it That is not true. They employee a few thousand people in an industrial estate outside a suburb of cork in fairly low ranking jobs. If they were to disappear overnight they would doubtless have an impact but not a fraction of €14bn

secondcoming 6y ago
Not these days perhaps, but back in the 1990's it would have. Who else was there, EMC? And if Apple did leave it's not unrealistic that the reasons that made them leave would also be on the minds of the other multinationals in the area.
- rusk 6y ago
  IMO this sounds like fairly shaky ground to build your economy on
  - Supernaut 6y ago
    History demonstrates otherwise. Apple has had facilities in Ireland since 1979. Most of the Apple IIs that were sold in Europe were built in Cork.
    - rusk 6y ago
      You’re not on the same thread at all
      - Supernaut 6y ago
        Whatever.
        rusk 6y ago
        Wow can’t believe you didn’t say “your mom”
  - 6y ago

chris_wot 6y ago

Double Irish with a Dutch sandwich... yum!

pkaye 6y ago
What about a Dutch crunch sandwich? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_bread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_bread