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The article is likely a submarine[1] for the deep fake detection company that it mentions (Cyabra). [1]: http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham

The article is likely a submarine[1] for the deep fake detection company that it mentions (Cyabra). [1]: http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
Makes sense. This old set of articles probably still applies: https://www.crikey.com.au/topic/spinning-the-media/ https://www.crikey.com.au/topic/spinning-the-media/
- Cyabra 6y ago
  Cool website, didn't know this one...thanks for sharing!
abathur 6y ago
Thanks for posting this. It's timely for me. I'm stuck in a loop with my father for a while now where he forwards me a certain sort of propaganda. I feel like I've struggled to break through on a key point: when I say something smells like propaganda, it doesn't mean I think it is false--it means I think it's part of an organized campaign to build narratives and consensus. In my case, the topic is highly charged. Reapproaching it with something low-stakes like this is at least worth a try.
- woadwarrior01 6y ago
  This resonates with me. I sometimes used to have similar arguments about some forwarded messages with my late father, who was an electronics engineer and really sharp in his prime. Intuitively it'd seem that the greater dissemination of information with social media and messaging apps would make people smarter and promote critical thinking, but in reality they seem to have the opposite effect. I still keep wondering if it's the environment or his age that was the primary factor. Do we become more gullible and less discerning as we grow older?. Perhaps I'll be much worse when I'll be as old as he was.
  - abathur 6y ago
    These concerns, in turn, resonate with me. I think my father is still sharp and have several competing quotidian explanations (projections?) of what's going on. But, it's impossible to silence the nagging worry that there's a chemical/mental imbalance brewing, or that this will be one of those things I'll look back on some day as an early sign of something.
  - munificent 6y ago
    > Intuitively it'd seem that the greater dissemination of information with social media and messaging apps would make people smarter and promote critical thinking I naively believed this too. It's wrong. The Internet and the various apps, sites, and social media things running on it aren't an information dissemination system, they are a data dissemination system. They take bytes and get them in front of many humans. The system itself cares not one whit as to whether the data it transmits has any connection to reality. The result is that the Internet functions as a mostly indiscriminate amplifier of its inputs. Sadly, it is much easier to input lies than truth. First of all, creating lies takes much less effort since no measurement or fact checking is required. I could tell you a hundred lies about what the neighbor next door is doing in the time it took you to go over there and ring the doorbell. Worse, my lies can be crafted to take full advantage of all of the human biases and flaws in the social media systems. I can make lies that are emotionally loaded, play into stereotypical narratives, or have evocative photos. Meanwhile, you foolish truth-teller are restricted to only the narratives that actually happened and the imagery that you actually took of the event. When you think of London in the Industrial Revolution, do you picture all of the bright shiny products of industrialization? The newly affordable textiles? Or is it more an image of a city covered filthy coal soot? It feels like we're in the latter state right now: buried under the pollution of disinformation. We need to think of "information pollution" and need an "information environmentalism" movement if we're going to survive the Information Age.
- sitkack 6y ago
  Skilled propaganda isn't about making up stories, it is about amplifying and positioning existing truths. Nothing has to be a lie, and it affects the receiver as much as it impacts the whole information supply chain. This piece might encourage someone else to research a different story and thus it amplifies the goals of the original propagandist. Many folks in a psyop/propaganda campaign are unaware of any sort of coercion. If the receiver understands it as propaganda the effort has failed. It is an exciting time for sociologists, the disinformation war that is occuring right now is global in scope. If the cold war was WW3, we are currently in WW4.
- cortesoft 6y ago
  This is what frustrates me so much with people who seem to think any article that doesn't lie is totally fine and can never be problematic. There seems to be a belief that you can't deceive unless you lie. The very best propaganda doesn't lie, it simply is very selective about what truth it shares. By carefully choosing your facts, using loaded language, and by properly framing your statements, you can make almost any argument without lying.
- schwartzworld 6y ago
  does your father also have the MSNBC brain cancer?
say_it_as_it_is 6y ago
interesting that PG had help from Aaron Swartz in writing the article (2005)
miseri 6y ago
There's something ironic about planted articles from a fake person being planted by a PR firm.
drited 6y ago
Could you please expand on what you mean? From the context I think you're saying it's a type of guerrilla marketing but the link doesn't seem to align with that. Nor does the article because the academics really do seem to have been falsely accused by the fake student/journalist mentioned in the article.

The article is likely a submarine[1] for the deep fake detection company that it mentions (Cyabra). [1]: http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

Makes sense. This old set of articles probably still applies: https://www.crikey.com.au/topic/spinning-the-media/ https://www.crikey.com.au/topic/spinning-the-media/

Cyabra 6y ago
Cool website, didn't know this one...thanks for sharing!

abathur 6y ago

Thanks for posting this. It's timely for me. I'm stuck in a loop with my father for a while now where he forwards me a certain sort of propaganda. I feel like I've struggled to break through on a key point: when I say something smells like propaganda, it doesn't mean I think it is false--it means I think it's part of an organized campaign to build narratives and consensus. In my case, the topic is highly charged. Reapproaching it with something low-stakes like this is at least worth a try.

woadwarrior01 6y ago
This resonates with me. I sometimes used to have similar arguments about some forwarded messages with my late father, who was an electronics engineer and really sharp in his prime. Intuitively it'd seem that the greater dissemination of information with social media and messaging apps would make people smarter and promote critical thinking, but in reality they seem to have the opposite effect. I still keep wondering if it's the environment or his age that was the primary factor. Do we become more gullible and less discerning as we grow older?. Perhaps I'll be much worse when I'll be as old as he was.
- abathur 6y ago
  These concerns, in turn, resonate with me. I think my father is still sharp and have several competing quotidian explanations (projections?) of what's going on. But, it's impossible to silence the nagging worry that there's a chemical/mental imbalance brewing, or that this will be one of those things I'll look back on some day as an early sign of something.
- munificent 6y ago
  > Intuitively it'd seem that the greater dissemination of information with social media and messaging apps would make people smarter and promote critical thinking I naively believed this too. It's wrong. The Internet and the various apps, sites, and social media things running on it aren't an information dissemination system, they are a data dissemination system. They take bytes and get them in front of many humans. The system itself cares not one whit as to whether the data it transmits has any connection to reality. The result is that the Internet functions as a mostly indiscriminate amplifier of its inputs. Sadly, it is much easier to input lies than truth. First of all, creating lies takes much less effort since no measurement or fact checking is required. I could tell you a hundred lies about what the neighbor next door is doing in the time it took you to go over there and ring the doorbell. Worse, my lies can be crafted to take full advantage of all of the human biases and flaws in the social media systems. I can make lies that are emotionally loaded, play into stereotypical narratives, or have evocative photos. Meanwhile, you foolish truth-teller are restricted to only the narratives that actually happened and the imagery that you actually took of the event. When you think of London in the Industrial Revolution, do you picture all of the bright shiny products of industrialization? The newly affordable textiles? Or is it more an image of a city covered filthy coal soot? It feels like we're in the latter state right now: buried under the pollution of disinformation. We need to think of "information pollution" and need an "information environmentalism" movement if we're going to survive the Information Age.
sitkack 6y ago
Skilled propaganda isn't about making up stories, it is about amplifying and positioning existing truths. Nothing has to be a lie, and it affects the receiver as much as it impacts the whole information supply chain. This piece might encourage someone else to research a different story and thus it amplifies the goals of the original propagandist. Many folks in a psyop/propaganda campaign are unaware of any sort of coercion. If the receiver understands it as propaganda the effort has failed. It is an exciting time for sociologists, the disinformation war that is occuring right now is global in scope. If the cold war was WW3, we are currently in WW4.
cortesoft 6y ago
This is what frustrates me so much with people who seem to think any article that doesn't lie is totally fine and can never be problematic. There seems to be a belief that you can't deceive unless you lie. The very best propaganda doesn't lie, it simply is very selective about what truth it shares. By carefully choosing your facts, using loaded language, and by properly framing your statements, you can make almost any argument without lying.
schwartzworld 6y ago
does your father also have the MSNBC brain cancer?

say_it_as_it_is 6y ago

interesting that PG had help from Aaron Swartz in writing the article (2005)

miseri 6y ago

There's something ironic about planted articles from a fake person being planted by a PR firm.

drited 6y ago

Could you please expand on what you mean? From the context I think you're saying it's a type of guerrilla marketing but the link doesn't seem to align with that. Nor does the article because the academics really do seem to have been falsely accused by the fake student/journalist mentioned in the article.