18 ms·

Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

95 points by fraqed 6y ago

givan 6y ago
Fasting has excellent results for treating many illnesses including mental ones. There is a documentary that covers two clinics that offer fasting as a treatment and scientific research in this area. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1b08X-GvRs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1b08X-GvRs
kesor 6y ago
Yes. And it has been used to cure some things you wouldn't believe. Here is the shortlist of the more serious illness that the PaleoMedicina group in Hungary have shown to effectively treat using their low-carb PKD protocol https://justmeat.co/wiki/pkd/ https://justmeat.co/wiki/pkd/ https://www.paleomedicina.com/en/paleolithic_ketogenic_diet_PKD_in_chronic_diseases_clinical_and_research_data https://www.paleomedicina.com/en/paleolithic_ketogenic_diet_... Here are testimonies of even more people healing their serious diseases on a purely carnivore and zero-carb diet https://meatrx.com/category/success-stories/ https://meatrx.com/category/success-stories/
- unalakleet 6y ago
  Zerocarb has healed by IBS and dramatically improved my mental health (with counseling of course). I was never overweight, but lost a lot of weight anyways, have a much more fit look.
- amINeolib 6y ago
  With URLs like that, it makes me wonder if they are telling the whole story. I don't understand why people make science "pointed"? Do people get extra credit for not being the status quo? Heck all I want in Nutrition is some objective data. Someone be that scientist.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - randomchars 6y ago
    > Heck all I want in Nutrition is some objective data. Someone be that scientist. This makes me very-very sad, but unfortunately that doesn't exists. Not only are studies are mostly observation, where you have to answer questions about what you eat (I can barely recall what I ate 3 days ago, not 3 months), and are usually funded by a corporation. You can basically find a study for everything and it's complete opposite.
  - nradov 6y ago
    Unfortunately almost no human nutrition studies meet evidence-based medicine standards. And in fairness to the scientists, the constraints imposed by funding and ethics make it impossible to do really meaningful research. All we get are observational studies which show some correlation, often mixed up with multiple uncontrolled confounding factors. So if you want to try a different diet like extreme low carb or whatever then go ahead. Maybe it will work for you, maybe it won't. In the worst case it probably won't kill you.
    - shlant 6y ago
      > In the worst case it probably won't kill you Unfortunately, that is also not necessarily true: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19027591/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19027591/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15679508/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15679508/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15329077/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15329077/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11575609/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11575609/
      - PudgePacket 6y ago
        > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23273808/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23273808/ > Conclusions: The KD is a safe and efficacious therapy for intractable childhood epilepsy in Chinese children. The influence of age on efficacy is worth further investigation. ?
- jmkerr 6y ago
  'Paleo medicine' sounds like living a long, healthy life and dying an old man at 30.
  - throwaway_kufu 6y ago
    Why? Paleolithic area humans may have had a life expectancy of 30-35 but it had nothing to do with diet, it has to do with so many dying as children (obviously not diet related), but once you passed the age of 5 you were generally going to live to your 60’s.
    - shlant 6y ago
      > it had nothing to do with diet > obviously not diet related You are making some pretty black and white statements without any evidence to support it but giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming all that is true, that does not mean that if you eat like them you will live long.
      - throwaway_kufu 6y ago
        If you really cared to learn about life expectancy of Paleolithic area it’s pretty simple to google, and Where did I claim if you eat like them you will live long like them?
  - shlant 6y ago
    exactly. The diet is one big Appeal to Nature fallacy
    - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
      Possibly. On the other hand, it does makes sense to feed animals a diet to which they are evolutionarily adapted. Visit a zoo sometime and ask what each animal eats. They are all feed something intended to be nutritionally similar to their natural diet. Because that’s what works.
      - 6y ago
- lambdaba 6y ago
  Thank you for posting this. I too have healed "incurable" conditions with an (almost) all-meat diet. I hope the message spreads quickly, and I'm sure it will, there are probably hundreds of thousands of similar cases by now (judging only by the popularity of some subreddits).
- i_cannot_hack 6y ago
  I also think the medical aspect of the ketogenic diet is somewhat promising, but I'm very sceptical of the work put out by the PaleoMedicina group. Mainly for 3 reasons: 1. They have a vested interest in presenting their therapy in an overly positive manner, as they sell it for hundreds of dollars per day at their clinic. 2. I've read a study published by them which contained some hyperbole that I can only attribute to either incompetence or deception [1]. In short, they described a newly diagnosed type 1 diabetes patient which did not need insulin when not consuming carbohydrates (completely normal during the honeymoon phase of T1D) and had an increase of C-peptide shortly after diagnosis (also a common occurrence for many during the honeymoon [2]). From this (and nothing else) they draw the completely unfounded conclusion that "the paleolithic ketogenic diet may halt or reverse autoimmune processes destructing pancreatic beta cell function in T1DM." 3. Their website contains language and phrasing that I would only except from charlatans, and not from serious medial practitioners offering an unproven and unconventional treatment. Such as "Get rid of the inconvenience of visiting doctors: We cure you." and "A final cure for your disease" (above references to cancer on the same page, no less). [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267810000_Type_1_diabetes_mellitus_successfully_managed_with_the_paleolithic_ketogenic_diet https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267810000_Type_1_di... [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21219422/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21219422/
  - randomchars 6y ago
    While I'm on almost exactly the same diet they're promoting, I have to agree. I considered going to them, when I was first starting this diet, but their prices are absurd: three times what I'm paying for consultation to an already very expensive private doctor. It's very sad that there doesn't seem to be a player in this field (nutrition) who's impartial and not motivated by monetary gain, that you can trust.
- shlant 6y ago
  do you have any sources that aren't from "justmeat", "paleomedicine" or "meatrx" which are clearly extremely biased?
roenxi 6y ago
I'm going to go with a corollary to Murphy's law. Since anything that can go wrong will, every activity or substance is going to be the problem for somebody. As far as I can tell, the only thing that dieticians are consistently against is sugar in large doses.
- jahnu 6y ago
  They are also for the hard to market, varied diet but largely fruit and vegetables, moderate exercise, little or no alcohol, and regular checkups. I'm failing to some degree on these, I admit.
  - YinglingLight 6y ago
    They are also for 7-8 bite sized 250 calorie meals every other waking hour. A feat that can only be feasibly achieved via living off ready-made readily-purchasable health snacks™. There is no money in fasting, intermittent or otherwise.
    - theNJR 6y ago
      > There is no money in fasting There is, and that’s a good thing for both sides of the transaction.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - nsl73 6y ago
      > They are also for 7-8 bite sized 250 calorie meals every other waking hour. No, I wouldn’t say this is modern consistent dietary advice. So many people that make it there business to talk about diet are hyping intermittent fasting now.
    - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
      > There is no money in fasting, intermittent or otherwise. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fasting+books&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fasting+books&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 Seems like there's money in them there books.
elric 6y ago
Well the ketogenic diet was designed specifically to treat intractable epilepsy ... so yeah ...
mikece 6y ago
It's been used to treat diabetes and seizure victims for a while so, yes. Personally I lost over 70 pounds (from 295 to 225 -- I'm 6'5") at one point using keto. My main concern is whether one who is on the diet for weight loss will become overly sensitive to carbs if/when they start eating them again causing the body to immediately store them away as far instead of burning them (and if so, how long would it take to "return to status quo ante" with regard to carbohydrate metabolism).
- base698 6y ago
  My wife and I have been on and off keto for long stints (6 months) at a time. We eat what most people would consider low carb--no bread or pasta most of the time. Occasionally we sneak in binges of fruit or have ice cream. Despite times over a week we have carbs both of us never leave ketosis. We seem to stay 1.0 mmol/L or greater even after having carbs.
- el_don_almighty 6y ago
  Yes, in my personal experience. However, I suspect my body is just desperate to hold on to carbs and pack those bastards around my liver anyway, regardless of previous Keto periods or not. When I stick to Keto, I feel better, think better, poop better, I don't get headaches and I don't have acne. Is it magic? I dunno. The chemistry seems to support it. Years ago we called it Atkins (yes, I am older) and it worked great for me, but chips and salsa are my kryptonite. Unfortunately, as I age, I must rely more and more on my diet for control I am not but a humble nerd who now sits behind a glowing screen toiling away as a PHB, but I can offer this: Keto works for me and I would recommend it to anyone.
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    I think the Atkins diet was low carbohydrate but not low enough to induce ketogenesis.
    - jhayward 6y ago
      It did indeed induce ketogenesis, in fact regular testing of urine for presence of ketone bodies was how one monitored whether their carb intake was appropriate
Frye 6y ago
My dog Toby was recently diagnosed with stage 2 splenic hemangiosarcoma and given 30-60 days. Opting against doxorubicin chemo we are working with the Keto Pet Sanctuary to make a new diet and hopefully start HBOT soon.
iand 6y ago
Can someone explain why ketosis is the secondary energy system in the body and not the primary?
- kesor 6y ago
  Because most people in modern society eat way too much carb, which makes glycogen the more bio available fuel and thus being the fuel that majority of humans use in modern times. It has not always been like this. And this state is not optimal, as the various diseases and illnesses caused by metabolic syndrome, that is caused by this overload of carbs, is a major problem for the health and well being of most of these people.
- lifty 6y ago
  Most probably because fats were not as common as carbs were when our metabolic system evolved.
  - keymone 6y ago
    carbs weren't very common: wheat, rice and potatoes literally didn't exist, fruit were nothing like they are today (probably 5% carb content). all those frutarian theories are just crazy. animals (fat and protein), on the other hand, were everywhere.
- dazag 6y ago
  It is the primary energy system. When a woman get pregnat, weeks before giving birth, she starts to produce ketones for the baby (it doesn't matter how many sugar the mum takes). And when the baby is born, meanwhile he drinks from mum milk he is in ketosis, because more than 50% of human milk is saturated fats. So yeah, we are in ketosis until we start to eat "food" high in carbs. The body can't burn fats if insuline is in your blood.
  - shlant 6y ago
    > "It is the primary energy system" No, it's not [1]. Why do you think many organs[2] including the brain[3] that NEEDS glucose to run? > "we are in ketosis until we start to eat "food" high in carbs" No, that's not how that works. Infants are in a MILD ketosis and "this isn’t a function of their diet, but of the developmental period they’re in"[4] 1. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-abstract/59/3/682S/4732269 https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-abstract/59/3/682S/473... 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22436/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22436/ 3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3900881/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3900881/ 4. https://www.stopbeingconfusedabouthealth.com/ketogenic-diet-myth-babies-in-ketosis/ https://www.stopbeingconfusedabouthealth.com/ketogenic-diet-...
Darmody 6y ago
I love how we're starting to focus on our diets to prevent or cure a huge amount of diseases. You don't need drugs, expensive treatments, nothing, only a good diet. (read the comments below for an clarification for this statement) I personally can't work on a very low carb diet. Now I'm eating carbs again but NOT refined carbs. I make sure everything I eat is nutrient dense. Well, not everything, I'm not a robot but I always try to eat stuff with a low glycemic index. And I eat everything in a span of 8 hours. The rest of the day I only drink water. Y recommend listening to Dr. Rhonda Patrick. She can explain all this way better than me. She's been on the Joe Rogan podcast (she talks about this in her first time there) and she also has a podcast and a lot of very interesting videos.
- Pelic4n 6y ago
  >You don't need drugs, expensive treatments, nothing, only a good diet. Moms on facebook keep telling me this but my physician disagree! Do you have an essential oil for this?
  - Darmody 6y ago
    I realized that that statement can be misinterpreted. I'm not talking about not using drugs or going to a doctor when it's needed. I'm saying a good diet can prevent a lot of bad stuff and sometimes even reverse things like diabetes.
    - shlant 6y ago
      I agree with the responder that your original statement sounds a bit hyperbolized, but I also am an advocate that diet can treat a LOT more conditions than most people think
    - Pelic4n 6y ago
      I fully agree with you, I was being snarky.
- cpach 6y ago
  May I ask what kind of carbs you include in your diet?
fizixer 6y ago
No.
StacyC 6y ago
I am 58, on a (mostly) strict ketogenic diet since 2013. It has worked wonders for me and I expect to eat this way the rest of my life. I eat a lot of meat and eggs as I have found that combination (1) is something I enjoy very much, and (2) makes me feel the best. I didn’t have much weight to lose but I went from 175 to 160 (high school weight) and under 15% body fat. My energy level is consistently very good. Diet is a subjective thing, of course, but at a minimum getting rid of sugars and processed food might be a good starting point for anyone. Anecdote: my brother-in-law reversed his T2 diabetes and lost quite a bit of weight doing keto. His doctor had advised meds to “manage” the disease.
- el_oni 6y ago
  > reversed his T2 diabetes and lost quite a bit of weight doing keto. His doctor had advised meds to “manage” the disease. My assumption there is that compliance for meds is probably better than compliance for huge lifestyle changes (such as diet). And that most people that the doctor sees in your BILs situation wouldn't stick to a ketogenic diet, and would need to go onto meds at some point in the future anyway. Aside from that, im glad that it worked out for him. My anecdote about T2, is that a guy who works with my SO was told to control his diabetes with diet and is now insulin dependant, he hasnt been doing his insulin properly and has developed a swathe of health problems because of it.
  - jonfw 6y ago
    You've also got to look at how doctors are being incentivized. Medicine funnels more money into the medical system- and kickbacks or 'rewards' programs from pharmaceutical companies are common. Outside of that- people like their doctors to do things. Everybody knows that they could use a better diet and more exercise- a doctor who says that and nothing else may not make people feel like they're getting their money's worth.
    - bosie 6y ago
      I am not even sure the incentives matter, compliance rates from patients are horrendous in medicine. Incentives or not, suggesting a lifestyle change (go from SAD to extreme low carb) might be the best course of action but how many patients will follow through? does medicine even know how to handle this transition? Of course they don't. Advising this lifestyle change might work for 1% but what about the other 99%?
billysielu 6y ago
I did it before for weight loss, it worked amazingly, but the weight came back on just as easily. It would have to be a permanent lifestyle change, and I'm not convinced that's safe.
- mirsadm 6y ago
  What makes you think that it isn't safe? I guess the other question is what makes you sure that another diet is safe?
  - nsl73 6y ago
    It’s a really extreme diet. I would be concerned with the fat intake, the cholesterol intake, and limits on certain fruits and vegetables.
    - PudgePacket 6y ago
      Your body makes more cholesterol than you get from diet, it's more complicated than just "cholesterol high = bad". Also would encourage you to read up on recent literature about fats. The "low fat = healthy" fad hasn't held up for some time. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109720356874 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S073510972... > The recommendation to limit dietary saturated fatty acid (SFA) intake has persisted despite mounting evidence to the contrary. Most recent meta-analyses of randomized trials and observational studies found no beneficial effects of reducing SFA intake on cardiovascular disease (CVD) and total mortality, and instead found protective effects against stroke.
- randomchars 6y ago
  This is true for every diet. If you get gain weight on your current lifestyle, start dieting and go back after you lost it, you'll gain that weight back. There's no magic pill, if your current lifestyle makes you fat, you need a lifestyle change.
- shlant 6y ago
  IMO any extremely restrictive diet is not sustainable and therefor not a real, long-term solution for health
sradman 6y ago
Before the advent of anti-seizure drugs, the ketogenic diet [1] was an effective and widespread intervention used to treat epilepsy. The downside is the discipline required to keep intake of carbohydrates below 15 grams per day, especially in children. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  It's still used for treating e.g. West syndrome which is similar to epilepsy.
- frereubu 6y ago
  And still used in cases where drugs are not well tolerated: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002bnz https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002bnz This was for a child, and the parents talk about the difficulties in maintaining that diet that you mention.
- shlant 6y ago
  additional downsides include kidney stones[1,2,3,4], bone mineral loss[5] and a long list of other complications (including death): https://www.thepaleomom.com/adverse-reactions-to-ketogenic-diets-caution-advised/ https://www.thepaleomom.com/adverse-reactions-to-ketogenic-d... 1. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11095028/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11095028/ 2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10893623/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10893623/ 3. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0883073807301926 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/088307380730192... 4. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852806/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852806/ 5. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19064531/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19064531/
  - PudgePacket 6y ago
    Firstly those studies are all in children.. Study 1 doesn't actually show increases in kidney stones. Study 2 has N of 4... Study 3 looks reasonable, though they did note "use of oral potassium citrate significantly decreased the prevalence of stones" which is good news! Study 4 has N of 25 & no info about what they actually ate other than macronutrient ratio.
dlkmp 6y ago
I have been on keto for three months now, for me it's mostly about the mental clarity, free from the ups and downs you experience when eating a lunch high in carbs.
qrush 6y ago
I've been on keto for probably a full year of my life at this point, broken up every few months. I usually can't maintain it for longer than 2-3 months at a time because it really is a strict diet - but it's always been worth it once I get into the "mode". I absolutely love it because it turns the daily roller coaster of hunger pains for me caused by carbs into a steadier, more predictable climb. I basically feel no hunger at all during the day, and it's fantastic. The big downside, obviously: little to no carbs. As a home baker I miss making bread when on keto, but I get that energy out by making different keto treats (usually almond/coconut flour based) instead.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  Same here. Love me some homemade bread, gotten really good at ciabatta. It makes it hard to do anything more than 2-3 months on keto. I found that it works as advertised -- skin gets better, weight drops, generally more energy -- but it's very hard to get away from carbs. Like, you need to be DILIGENT, and even if you stay on top of it it ends up limiting your life in many ways. I could live without a lot of carbs but giving up on pizza was hard...
Shivetya 6y ago
One thing many overlook with low carb is that you can still enjoy your favorites sauces and similar, you will be amazed how far a tablespoon of one will go. This can apply to mixing in what otherwise are considered carb no nos like bread crumbs. A little goes a long way and the carb impact can be minimized if the base is large. Plus there is so much variety in the produce department that fits the diet that many overlook. Low carb/keto does not mean having to eat what is on their list but looking on the lists for items you have never tried to see new opportunities.
- calpaterson 6y ago
  YMMV but my favourite sauces were not compatible with Keto. Brown sauce for example - and no one is making a sugar free version of it AFAIK
playing_colours 6y ago
There is The Autoimmune Protocol diet (AIP), a stricter version of Paleo, and there is keto diet. They both seem to help with autoimmune deceases and inflammations. Did anyone try them, and can share their experience? Do they both have comparable effects in a long term?
bigtex 6y ago
So my daughter had epilepsy soon after birth and was hospitalized for 20 days @ 1 month old. By the time we left they had her on 4 different drugs, but the seizures continued. At 4 months old she went to the local children's keto clinic. The seizure frequency slowly tappered off until a month or so later she was seizure free! That lasted for a few months until an ear infection brought the sickness back and then revealed the true cause of the seizure, a brain abnormality. That was when my eyes were truly opened to how much diet can effect the body.

95 points by fraqed 6y ago

Fasting has excellent results for treating many illnesses including mental ones. There is a documentary that covers two clinics that offer fasting as a treatment and scientific research in this area. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1b08X-GvRs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1b08X-GvRs

kesor 6y ago

Yes. And it has been used to cure some things you wouldn't believe. Here is the shortlist of the more serious illness that the PaleoMedicina group in Hungary have shown to effectively treat using their low-carb PKD protocol https://justmeat.co/wiki/pkd/ https://justmeat.co/wiki/pkd/ https://www.paleomedicina.com/en/paleolithic_ketogenic_diet_PKD_in_chronic_diseases_clinical_and_research_data https://www.paleomedicina.com/en/paleolithic_ketogenic_diet_... Here are testimonies of even more people healing their serious diseases on a purely carnivore and zero-carb diet https://meatrx.com/category/success-stories/ https://meatrx.com/category/success-stories/

unalakleet 6y ago
Zerocarb has healed by IBS and dramatically improved my mental health (with counseling of course). I was never overweight, but lost a lot of weight anyways, have a much more fit look.
amINeolib 6y ago
With URLs like that, it makes me wonder if they are telling the whole story. I don't understand why people make science "pointed"? Do people get extra credit for not being the status quo? Heck all I want in Nutrition is some objective data. Someone be that scientist.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- randomchars 6y ago
  > Heck all I want in Nutrition is some objective data. Someone be that scientist. This makes me very-very sad, but unfortunately that doesn't exists. Not only are studies are mostly observation, where you have to answer questions about what you eat (I can barely recall what I ate 3 days ago, not 3 months), and are usually funded by a corporation. You can basically find a study for everything and it's complete opposite.
- nradov 6y ago
  Unfortunately almost no human nutrition studies meet evidence-based medicine standards. And in fairness to the scientists, the constraints imposed by funding and ethics make it impossible to do really meaningful research. All we get are observational studies which show some correlation, often mixed up with multiple uncontrolled confounding factors. So if you want to try a different diet like extreme low carb or whatever then go ahead. Maybe it will work for you, maybe it won't. In the worst case it probably won't kill you.
  - shlant 6y ago
    > In the worst case it probably won't kill you Unfortunately, that is also not necessarily true: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19027591/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19027591/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15679508/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15679508/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15329077/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15329077/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11575609/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11575609/
    - PudgePacket 6y ago
      > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23273808/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23273808/ > Conclusions: The KD is a safe and efficacious therapy for intractable childhood epilepsy in Chinese children. The influence of age on efficacy is worth further investigation. ?
jmkerr 6y ago
'Paleo medicine' sounds like living a long, healthy life and dying an old man at 30.
- throwaway_kufu 6y ago
  Why? Paleolithic area humans may have had a life expectancy of 30-35 but it had nothing to do with diet, it has to do with so many dying as children (obviously not diet related), but once you passed the age of 5 you were generally going to live to your 60’s.
  - shlant 6y ago
    > it had nothing to do with diet > obviously not diet related You are making some pretty black and white statements without any evidence to support it but giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming all that is true, that does not mean that if you eat like them you will live long.
    - throwaway_kufu 6y ago
      If you really cared to learn about life expectancy of Paleolithic area it’s pretty simple to google, and Where did I claim if you eat like them you will live long like them?
- shlant 6y ago
  exactly. The diet is one big Appeal to Nature fallacy
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    Possibly. On the other hand, it does makes sense to feed animals a diet to which they are evolutionarily adapted. Visit a zoo sometime and ask what each animal eats. They are all feed something intended to be nutritionally similar to their natural diet. Because that’s what works.
    - 6y ago
lambdaba 6y ago
Thank you for posting this. I too have healed "incurable" conditions with an (almost) all-meat diet. I hope the message spreads quickly, and I'm sure it will, there are probably hundreds of thousands of similar cases by now (judging only by the popularity of some subreddits).
i_cannot_hack 6y ago
I also think the medical aspect of the ketogenic diet is somewhat promising, but I'm very sceptical of the work put out by the PaleoMedicina group. Mainly for 3 reasons: 1. They have a vested interest in presenting their therapy in an overly positive manner, as they sell it for hundreds of dollars per day at their clinic. 2. I've read a study published by them which contained some hyperbole that I can only attribute to either incompetence or deception [1]. In short, they described a newly diagnosed type 1 diabetes patient which did not need insulin when not consuming carbohydrates (completely normal during the honeymoon phase of T1D) and had an increase of C-peptide shortly after diagnosis (also a common occurrence for many during the honeymoon [2]). From this (and nothing else) they draw the completely unfounded conclusion that "the paleolithic ketogenic diet may halt or reverse autoimmune processes destructing pancreatic beta cell function in T1DM." 3. Their website contains language and phrasing that I would only except from charlatans, and not from serious medial practitioners offering an unproven and unconventional treatment. Such as "Get rid of the inconvenience of visiting doctors: We cure you." and "A final cure for your disease" (above references to cancer on the same page, no less). [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267810000_Type_1_diabetes_mellitus_successfully_managed_with_the_paleolithic_ketogenic_diet https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267810000_Type_1_di... [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21219422/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21219422/
- randomchars 6y ago
  While I'm on almost exactly the same diet they're promoting, I have to agree. I considered going to them, when I was first starting this diet, but their prices are absurd: three times what I'm paying for consultation to an already very expensive private doctor. It's very sad that there doesn't seem to be a player in this field (nutrition) who's impartial and not motivated by monetary gain, that you can trust.
shlant 6y ago
do you have any sources that aren't from "justmeat", "paleomedicine" or "meatrx" which are clearly extremely biased?

roenxi 6y ago

I'm going to go with a corollary to Murphy's law. Since anything that can go wrong will, every activity or substance is going to be the problem for somebody. As far as I can tell, the only thing that dieticians are consistently against is sugar in large doses.

jahnu 6y ago
They are also for the hard to market, varied diet but largely fruit and vegetables, moderate exercise, little or no alcohol, and regular checkups. I'm failing to some degree on these, I admit.
- YinglingLight 6y ago
  They are also for 7-8 bite sized 250 calorie meals every other waking hour. A feat that can only be feasibly achieved via living off ready-made readily-purchasable health snacks™. There is no money in fasting, intermittent or otherwise.
  - theNJR 6y ago
    > There is no money in fasting There is, and that’s a good thing for both sides of the transaction.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - nsl73 6y ago
    > They are also for 7-8 bite sized 250 calorie meals every other waking hour. No, I wouldn’t say this is modern consistent dietary advice. So many people that make it there business to talk about diet are hyping intermittent fasting now.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    > There is no money in fasting, intermittent or otherwise. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fasting+books&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fasting+books&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 Seems like there's money in them there books.

elric 6y ago

Well the ketogenic diet was designed specifically to treat intractable epilepsy ... so yeah ...

mikece 6y ago

It's been used to treat diabetes and seizure victims for a while so, yes. Personally I lost over 70 pounds (from 295 to 225 -- I'm 6'5") at one point using keto. My main concern is whether one who is on the diet for weight loss will become overly sensitive to carbs if/when they start eating them again causing the body to immediately store them away as far instead of burning them (and if so, how long would it take to "return to status quo ante" with regard to carbohydrate metabolism).

base698 6y ago
My wife and I have been on and off keto for long stints (6 months) at a time. We eat what most people would consider low carb--no bread or pasta most of the time. Occasionally we sneak in binges of fruit or have ice cream. Despite times over a week we have carbs both of us never leave ketosis. We seem to stay 1.0 mmol/L or greater even after having carbs.
el_don_almighty 6y ago
Yes, in my personal experience. However, I suspect my body is just desperate to hold on to carbs and pack those bastards around my liver anyway, regardless of previous Keto periods or not. When I stick to Keto, I feel better, think better, poop better, I don't get headaches and I don't have acne. Is it magic? I dunno. The chemistry seems to support it. Years ago we called it Atkins (yes, I am older) and it worked great for me, but chips and salsa are my kryptonite. Unfortunately, as I age, I must rely more and more on my diet for control I am not but a humble nerd who now sits behind a glowing screen toiling away as a PHB, but I can offer this: Keto works for me and I would recommend it to anyone.
- nkozyra 6y ago
  I think the Atkins diet was low carbohydrate but not low enough to induce ketogenesis.
  - jhayward 6y ago
    It did indeed induce ketogenesis, in fact regular testing of urine for presence of ketone bodies was how one monitored whether their carb intake was appropriate

Frye 6y ago

My dog Toby was recently diagnosed with stage 2 splenic hemangiosarcoma and given 30-60 days. Opting against doxorubicin chemo we are working with the Keto Pet Sanctuary to make a new diet and hopefully start HBOT soon.

iand 6y ago

Can someone explain why ketosis is the secondary energy system in the body and not the primary?

kesor 6y ago
Because most people in modern society eat way too much carb, which makes glycogen the more bio available fuel and thus being the fuel that majority of humans use in modern times. It has not always been like this. And this state is not optimal, as the various diseases and illnesses caused by metabolic syndrome, that is caused by this overload of carbs, is a major problem for the health and well being of most of these people.
lifty 6y ago
Most probably because fats were not as common as carbs were when our metabolic system evolved.
- keymone 6y ago
  carbs weren't very common: wheat, rice and potatoes literally didn't exist, fruit were nothing like they are today (probably 5% carb content). all those frutarian theories are just crazy. animals (fat and protein), on the other hand, were everywhere.
dazag 6y ago
It is the primary energy system. When a woman get pregnat, weeks before giving birth, she starts to produce ketones for the baby (it doesn't matter how many sugar the mum takes). And when the baby is born, meanwhile he drinks from mum milk he is in ketosis, because more than 50% of human milk is saturated fats. So yeah, we are in ketosis until we start to eat "food" high in carbs. The body can't burn fats if insuline is in your blood.
- shlant 6y ago
  > "It is the primary energy system" No, it's not [1]. Why do you think many organs[2] including the brain[3] that NEEDS glucose to run? > "we are in ketosis until we start to eat "food" high in carbs" No, that's not how that works. Infants are in a MILD ketosis and "this isn’t a function of their diet, but of the developmental period they’re in"[4] 1. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-abstract/59/3/682S/4732269 https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-abstract/59/3/682S/473... 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22436/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22436/ 3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3900881/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3900881/ 4. https://www.stopbeingconfusedabouthealth.com/ketogenic-diet-myth-babies-in-ketosis/ https://www.stopbeingconfusedabouthealth.com/ketogenic-diet-...

Darmody 6y ago

I love how we're starting to focus on our diets to prevent or cure a huge amount of diseases. You don't need drugs, expensive treatments, nothing, only a good diet. (read the comments below for an clarification for this statement) I personally can't work on a very low carb diet. Now I'm eating carbs again but NOT refined carbs. I make sure everything I eat is nutrient dense. Well, not everything, I'm not a robot but I always try to eat stuff with a low glycemic index. And I eat everything in a span of 8 hours. The rest of the day I only drink water. Y recommend listening to Dr. Rhonda Patrick. She can explain all this way better than me. She's been on the Joe Rogan podcast (she talks about this in her first time there) and she also has a podcast and a lot of very interesting videos.

Pelic4n 6y ago
>You don't need drugs, expensive treatments, nothing, only a good diet. Moms on facebook keep telling me this but my physician disagree! Do you have an essential oil for this?
- Darmody 6y ago
  I realized that that statement can be misinterpreted. I'm not talking about not using drugs or going to a doctor when it's needed. I'm saying a good diet can prevent a lot of bad stuff and sometimes even reverse things like diabetes.
  - shlant 6y ago
    I agree with the responder that your original statement sounds a bit hyperbolized, but I also am an advocate that diet can treat a LOT more conditions than most people think
  - Pelic4n 6y ago
    I fully agree with you, I was being snarky.
cpach 6y ago
May I ask what kind of carbs you include in your diet?

fizixer 6y ago

No.

StacyC 6y ago

I am 58, on a (mostly) strict ketogenic diet since 2013. It has worked wonders for me and I expect to eat this way the rest of my life. I eat a lot of meat and eggs as I have found that combination (1) is something I enjoy very much, and (2) makes me feel the best. I didn’t have much weight to lose but I went from 175 to 160 (high school weight) and under 15% body fat. My energy level is consistently very good. Diet is a subjective thing, of course, but at a minimum getting rid of sugars and processed food might be a good starting point for anyone. Anecdote: my brother-in-law reversed his T2 diabetes and lost quite a bit of weight doing keto. His doctor had advised meds to “manage” the disease.

el_oni 6y ago
> reversed his T2 diabetes and lost quite a bit of weight doing keto. His doctor had advised meds to “manage” the disease. My assumption there is that compliance for meds is probably better than compliance for huge lifestyle changes (such as diet). And that most people that the doctor sees in your BILs situation wouldn't stick to a ketogenic diet, and would need to go onto meds at some point in the future anyway. Aside from that, im glad that it worked out for him. My anecdote about T2, is that a guy who works with my SO was told to control his diabetes with diet and is now insulin dependant, he hasnt been doing his insulin properly and has developed a swathe of health problems because of it.
- jonfw 6y ago
  You've also got to look at how doctors are being incentivized. Medicine funnels more money into the medical system- and kickbacks or 'rewards' programs from pharmaceutical companies are common. Outside of that- people like their doctors to do things. Everybody knows that they could use a better diet and more exercise- a doctor who says that and nothing else may not make people feel like they're getting their money's worth.
  - bosie 6y ago
    I am not even sure the incentives matter, compliance rates from patients are horrendous in medicine. Incentives or not, suggesting a lifestyle change (go from SAD to extreme low carb) might be the best course of action but how many patients will follow through? does medicine even know how to handle this transition? Of course they don't. Advising this lifestyle change might work for 1% but what about the other 99%?

billysielu 6y ago

I did it before for weight loss, it worked amazingly, but the weight came back on just as easily. It would have to be a permanent lifestyle change, and I'm not convinced that's safe.

mirsadm 6y ago
What makes you think that it isn't safe? I guess the other question is what makes you sure that another diet is safe?
- nsl73 6y ago
  It’s a really extreme diet. I would be concerned with the fat intake, the cholesterol intake, and limits on certain fruits and vegetables.
  - PudgePacket 6y ago
    Your body makes more cholesterol than you get from diet, it's more complicated than just "cholesterol high = bad". Also would encourage you to read up on recent literature about fats. The "low fat = healthy" fad hasn't held up for some time. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109720356874 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S073510972... > The recommendation to limit dietary saturated fatty acid (SFA) intake has persisted despite mounting evidence to the contrary. Most recent meta-analyses of randomized trials and observational studies found no beneficial effects of reducing SFA intake on cardiovascular disease (CVD) and total mortality, and instead found protective effects against stroke.
randomchars 6y ago
This is true for every diet. If you get gain weight on your current lifestyle, start dieting and go back after you lost it, you'll gain that weight back. There's no magic pill, if your current lifestyle makes you fat, you need a lifestyle change.
shlant 6y ago
IMO any extremely restrictive diet is not sustainable and therefor not a real, long-term solution for health

sradman 6y ago

Before the advent of anti-seizure drugs, the ketogenic diet [1] was an effective and widespread intervention used to treat epilepsy. The downside is the discipline required to keep intake of carbohydrates below 15 grams per day, especially in children. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

0-_-0 6y ago
It's still used for treating e.g. West syndrome which is similar to epilepsy.
frereubu 6y ago
And still used in cases where drugs are not well tolerated: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002bnz https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002bnz This was for a child, and the parents talk about the difficulties in maintaining that diet that you mention.
shlant 6y ago
additional downsides include kidney stones[1,2,3,4], bone mineral loss[5] and a long list of other complications (including death): https://www.thepaleomom.com/adverse-reactions-to-ketogenic-diets-caution-advised/ https://www.thepaleomom.com/adverse-reactions-to-ketogenic-d... 1. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11095028/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11095028/ 2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10893623/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10893623/ 3. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0883073807301926 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/088307380730192... 4. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852806/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852806/ 5. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19064531/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19064531/
- PudgePacket 6y ago
  Firstly those studies are all in children.. Study 1 doesn't actually show increases in kidney stones. Study 2 has N of 4... Study 3 looks reasonable, though they did note "use of oral potassium citrate significantly decreased the prevalence of stones" which is good news! Study 4 has N of 25 & no info about what they actually ate other than macronutrient ratio.

dlkmp 6y ago

I have been on keto for three months now, for me it's mostly about the mental clarity, free from the ups and downs you experience when eating a lunch high in carbs.

qrush 6y ago

I've been on keto for probably a full year of my life at this point, broken up every few months. I usually can't maintain it for longer than 2-3 months at a time because it really is a strict diet - but it's always been worth it once I get into the "mode". I absolutely love it because it turns the daily roller coaster of hunger pains for me caused by carbs into a steadier, more predictable climb. I basically feel no hunger at all during the day, and it's fantastic. The big downside, obviously: little to no carbs. As a home baker I miss making bread when on keto, but I get that energy out by making different keto treats (usually almond/coconut flour based) instead.

blaser-waffle 6y ago
Same here. Love me some homemade bread, gotten really good at ciabatta. It makes it hard to do anything more than 2-3 months on keto. I found that it works as advertised -- skin gets better, weight drops, generally more energy -- but it's very hard to get away from carbs. Like, you need to be DILIGENT, and even if you stay on top of it it ends up limiting your life in many ways. I could live without a lot of carbs but giving up on pizza was hard...

Shivetya 6y ago

One thing many overlook with low carb is that you can still enjoy your favorites sauces and similar, you will be amazed how far a tablespoon of one will go. This can apply to mixing in what otherwise are considered carb no nos like bread crumbs. A little goes a long way and the carb impact can be minimized if the base is large. Plus there is so much variety in the produce department that fits the diet that many overlook. Low carb/keto does not mean having to eat what is on their list but looking on the lists for items you have never tried to see new opportunities.

calpaterson 6y ago
YMMV but my favourite sauces were not compatible with Keto. Brown sauce for example - and no one is making a sugar free version of it AFAIK

playing_colours 6y ago

There is The Autoimmune Protocol diet (AIP), a stricter version of Paleo, and there is keto diet. They both seem to help with autoimmune deceases and inflammations. Did anyone try them, and can share their experience? Do they both have comparable effects in a long term?

bigtex 6y ago

So my daughter had epilepsy soon after birth and was hospitalized for 20 days @ 1 month old. By the time we left they had her on 4 different drugs, but the seizures continued. At 4 months old she went to the local children's keto clinic. The seizure frequency slowly tappered off until a month or so later she was seizure free! That lasted for a few months until an ear infection brought the sickness back and then revealed the true cause of the seizure, a brain abnormality. That was when my eyes were truly opened to how much diet can effect the body.