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Didn’t Kissinger’s atrocious bombing of Cambodia help pave way for the Khmer Rouge?

by rado 6y ago

tlear 6y ago
Communist ideology payed way for Khmer Rouge.
pnw_hazor 6y ago
American/Western leftists supported and celebrated the Khmer Rouge revolution. In 1975, President Ford tried to resist the de-funding of anti-Khmer Rouge pro-American regime but the Democratic controlled congress stripped every nickel of US support. Chris Dodd and many other prominent leftists celebrated the move and welcomed the new future for Cambodia.
jryle70 6y ago
That may strengthen their stand, but far from a key factor. Khmer Rouge was China's puppet and would not be able to come to power and carry out the genocide without China's support: > In April 1975, Khmer Rouge seized power in Cambodia, and in January, 1976, Democratic Kampuchea was established. During the Cambodian genocide, the CPC was the main international patron of the Khmer Rouge, supplying "more than 15,000 military advisers" and most of its external aid. It is estimated that at least 90% of the foreign aid to Khmer Rouge came from China, with 1975 alone seeing US$1 billion in interest-free economics and military aid and US$20 million gift, which was "the biggest aid ever given to any one country by China". In June 1975, Pol Pot and other officials of Khmer Rouge met with Mao Zedong in Beijing, receiving Mao's approval and advice; in addition, Mao also taught Pot his "Theory of Continuing Revolution under the Dictatorship of the Proletariat（无产阶级专政下继续革命理论）". High-ranking CPC officials such as Zhang Chunqiao later visited Cambodia to offer help [0] Khmer Rouge was also North Vietnam's ally since they both fought against US-backed governments in South Vietnam and Cambodia. They only became enemies after winning their respective wars [1], caused by in no small part the deteriorating China-Vietnam relation. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot
- 3131s 6y ago
  It was a proxy war, a point which you've just made half of the case for. The US bombing of Cambodia was without a doubt a defining factor in this event. It killed between 100,000 and 400,000 Cambodians, how could it not be? I have met people in Kampong Thom, right in the middle of the country, that talked about living in complete destitution for years due to the effects of the bombing, before Pol Pot's takeover. There is also quite a bit of shrapnel and unexploded ordinance laying around there still too. There is just no doubt that this would not have happened if not for the Vietnam war. You can blame China as well of course, but don't forget that the US government began aiding the Khmer Rouge at a later point in time again too. Try reading "My War with the CIA" by Norodom Sihanouk if you want a different perspective on all this.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Source on the 100,00 to 400,000 deaths from bombings? The bombings were in border areas with little to no population. The US even sent troops in for damage assessment and they often found nothing not even North Vietnamese soldiers or even dwellings. Not to saying thousands didn't die, or even tens of thousands, but 500,000? That's like 7% of the entire population of Cambodia.
    - 3131s 6y ago
      This first one has statistics on deaths, estimates ranging from 30,000 to 500,000 deaths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal#Cambodian_deaths_caused_by_U.S._bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal#Cambodi... "Another impact of the U.S. bombing and the Cambodian civil war was the destruction of homes and livelihood of many people. This was a large contributor to the refugee crisis in Cambodia with two million people—more than 25 percent of the population—displaced from rural areas into cities, especially Phnom Penh which grew from about 600,000 in 1970 to an estimated population of nearly 2 million by 1975. The Cambodian government estimated that more than 20 percent of property in the country had been destroyed during the war." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Menu#Civilian_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Menu#Civilian_casual... The bombings along with the landmines made it impossible to farm in many areas, which caused famine that then lead to the migration mentioned above. That's what I have heard from Cambodians that lived in those places at the time. Also, similar events played out in Laos but the story is not as well known. More bombs were dropped on Laos even, and apparently in 2016 Obama allocated money to clean up a remaining 90 million pieces of unexploded ordninance. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-laos-obama-uxo/u-s-gives-laos-extra-90-million-to-help-clear-unexploded-ordnance-idUSKCN11C0GV https://www.reuters.com/article/us-laos-obama-uxo/u-s-gives-... "From 1964 to 1973, U.S. warplanes dropped more than 270 million cluster munitions on the communist country, one-third of which did not explode, the Lao National Regulatory Authority for UXO says."
ZeroGravitas 6y ago
More than that, the Khmer Rouge were actively supported by the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_support_for_the_Khmer_Rouge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States...
- cousin_it 6y ago
  And when Vietnam invaded Cambodia and stopped the genocide in two weeks, this happened: > Although Sihanouk distanced himself from the human rights abuses of the Khmer Rouge, he accused Vietnam of using aggression to violate Kampuchea's sovereignty. As such, he demanded all UN countries suspend aid to Vietnam and not recognize the Vietnamese-installed regime. Subsequently, seven non-aligned members of the UN Security Council submitted a draft resolution calling for a ceasefire and the withdrawal of all foreign forces from Kampuchea, which was endorsed by China, France, Norway, Portugal, the United States and the United Kingdom. However, the resolution was not approved due to opposition from the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese...
- drocer88 6y ago
  Your link says "Allegations". What is proven? Not much. The article suggests the U.S. was not too keen on Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia and when they did actively support a group it was the non communist groups. China and Thailand actively supported the Khmer Rouge.
- refurb 6y ago
  Your article says “allegations”, but you’re stating it as fact.
  - truculent 6y ago
    It also has a section "Undisputed US support"
    - refurb 6y ago
walrus01 6y ago
Yes, and if you want an example of American political hypocrisy in things like international war crimes courts, I'm honestly astonished that people like Slobodan Milosevic were prosecuted, but Kissinger hasn't spent the past 30 years in a prison cell.
- lostlogin 6y ago
  I’m sure there is some hyperbole in your comment - no part of it is even faintly surprising I don’t think. The idea of an American soldier being prosecuted by that court just seems so far fetched. The wiki is worth a read, and some of the US concerns certainly make you think, however the opposition overall is rather lame. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Intern...
- ngold 6y ago
  Apparently his only punishment was investing in theranos.
- rumanator 6y ago
  > I'm honestly astonished that people like Slobodan Milosevic were prosecuted, but Kissinger hasn't spent the past 30 years in a prison cell. In your opinion what did Kissinger do that amounts to genocide of his own people, not to mention the string of assassinations of his domestic opponents?
  - walrus01 6y ago
    The international war crimes court is not limited to only persons who have committed genocide against their own people.
    - rumanator 6y ago
      You're the one who decided to explicitly compare Kissinger with Milosevic. Milosevic was trialed for his role in he Bosnian genocide, among other war crimes. If you cannot understand why Milosevic was on trial but Kissinger wasn't then please explain, in your own word, what did Kissinger do that was worse than genocide of his own people.
bezmenov 6y ago
> People usually refer to the bombing of Cambodia as if it had been unprovoked, secretive U.S. action. The fact is that we were bombing North Vietnamese troops that had invaded Cambodia, that were killing many Americans from these sanctuaries, and we were doing it with the acquiescence of the Cambodian government, which never once protested against it, and which, indeed, encouraged us to do it… Why is it moral for the North Vietnamese to have 50,000 to 100,000 troops in Cambodia, why should we let them kill Americans from that territory… and why in all these conditions is there a moral issue? Henry Kissinger on the bombing of Cambodia in 1969
peisistratos 6y ago
Kissinger's documented order was "anything that flies on anything that moves". While the Nuremberg trials had a lot of evidence, they never had such direct documentary evidence of a call for genocide like that. (or is that overblown? Perhaps only for the Cambodians fighting against the CIA backed coup of Lon Nol should shirts be torn in accusations of genocide).
- rumanator 6y ago
  > Kissinger's documented order was "anything that flies on anything that moves". Wrong. That quote is a report from a direct order from Nixon. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1463099/Kissingers-tapes-put-Nixon-lies-in-spotlight.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/...
  - peisistratos 6y ago
    So your counterpoint is that the call to genocide was one he relayed directly from the president of the USA? The "I was only following orders" defense did not fly at the Nuremberg trials.
    - rumanator 6y ago
      > So your counterpoint is that the call to genocide was one he relayed directly from the president of the USA? I presented no counterpoint, I've pointed out the fact that you're basing your accusations on claims that are patently wrong, if not intentionally false and disingenuous. And while on the topic of disingenuous statements, please revise your sources because the Cambodja bombing campaign does not come close to fit the definition of genocide.

Didn’t Kissinger’s atrocious bombing of Cambodia help pave way for the Khmer Rouge?

by rado 6y ago

Didn’t Kissinger’s atrocious bombing of Cambodia help pave way for the Khmer Rouge?

tlear 6y ago

Communist ideology payed way for Khmer Rouge.

pnw_hazor 6y ago

American/Western leftists supported and celebrated the Khmer Rouge revolution. In 1975, President Ford tried to resist the de-funding of anti-Khmer Rouge pro-American regime but the Democratic controlled congress stripped every nickel of US support. Chris Dodd and many other prominent leftists celebrated the move and welcomed the new future for Cambodia.

jryle70 6y ago

That may strengthen their stand, but far from a key factor. Khmer Rouge was China's puppet and would not be able to come to power and carry out the genocide without China's support: > In April 1975, Khmer Rouge seized power in Cambodia, and in January, 1976, Democratic Kampuchea was established. During the Cambodian genocide, the CPC was the main international patron of the Khmer Rouge, supplying "more than 15,000 military advisers" and most of its external aid. It is estimated that at least 90% of the foreign aid to Khmer Rouge came from China, with 1975 alone seeing US$1 billion in interest-free economics and military aid and US$20 million gift, which was "the biggest aid ever given to any one country by China". In June 1975, Pol Pot and other officials of Khmer Rouge met with Mao Zedong in Beijing, receiving Mao's approval and advice; in addition, Mao also taught Pot his "Theory of Continuing Revolution under the Dictatorship of the Proletariat（无产阶级专政下继续革命理论）". High-ranking CPC officials such as Zhang Chunqiao later visited Cambodia to offer help [0] Khmer Rouge was also North Vietnam's ally since they both fought against US-backed governments in South Vietnam and Cambodia. They only became enemies after winning their respective wars [1], caused by in no small part the deteriorating China-Vietnam relation. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot

3131s 6y ago
It was a proxy war, a point which you've just made half of the case for. The US bombing of Cambodia was without a doubt a defining factor in this event. It killed between 100,000 and 400,000 Cambodians, how could it not be? I have met people in Kampong Thom, right in the middle of the country, that talked about living in complete destitution for years due to the effects of the bombing, before Pol Pot's takeover. There is also quite a bit of shrapnel and unexploded ordinance laying around there still too. There is just no doubt that this would not have happened if not for the Vietnam war. You can blame China as well of course, but don't forget that the US government began aiding the Khmer Rouge at a later point in time again too. Try reading "My War with the CIA" by Norodom Sihanouk if you want a different perspective on all this.
- refurb 6y ago
  Source on the 100,00 to 400,000 deaths from bombings? The bombings were in border areas with little to no population. The US even sent troops in for damage assessment and they often found nothing not even North Vietnamese soldiers or even dwellings. Not to saying thousands didn't die, or even tens of thousands, but 500,000? That's like 7% of the entire population of Cambodia.
  - 3131s 6y ago
    This first one has statistics on deaths, estimates ranging from 30,000 to 500,000 deaths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal#Cambodian_deaths_caused_by_U.S._bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal#Cambodi... "Another impact of the U.S. bombing and the Cambodian civil war was the destruction of homes and livelihood of many people. This was a large contributor to the refugee crisis in Cambodia with two million people—more than 25 percent of the population—displaced from rural areas into cities, especially Phnom Penh which grew from about 600,000 in 1970 to an estimated population of nearly 2 million by 1975. The Cambodian government estimated that more than 20 percent of property in the country had been destroyed during the war." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Menu#Civilian_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Menu#Civilian_casual... The bombings along with the landmines made it impossible to farm in many areas, which caused famine that then lead to the migration mentioned above. That's what I have heard from Cambodians that lived in those places at the time. Also, similar events played out in Laos but the story is not as well known. More bombs were dropped on Laos even, and apparently in 2016 Obama allocated money to clean up a remaining 90 million pieces of unexploded ordninance. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-laos-obama-uxo/u-s-gives-laos-extra-90-million-to-help-clear-unexploded-ordnance-idUSKCN11C0GV https://www.reuters.com/article/us-laos-obama-uxo/u-s-gives-... "From 1964 to 1973, U.S. warplanes dropped more than 270 million cluster munitions on the communist country, one-third of which did not explode, the Lao National Regulatory Authority for UXO says."

ZeroGravitas 6y ago

More than that, the Khmer Rouge were actively supported by the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_support_for_the_Khmer_Rouge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States...

cousin_it 6y ago
And when Vietnam invaded Cambodia and stopped the genocide in two weeks, this happened: > Although Sihanouk distanced himself from the human rights abuses of the Khmer Rouge, he accused Vietnam of using aggression to violate Kampuchea's sovereignty. As such, he demanded all UN countries suspend aid to Vietnam and not recognize the Vietnamese-installed regime. Subsequently, seven non-aligned members of the UN Security Council submitted a draft resolution calling for a ceasefire and the withdrawal of all foreign forces from Kampuchea, which was endorsed by China, France, Norway, Portugal, the United States and the United Kingdom. However, the resolution was not approved due to opposition from the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese...
drocer88 6y ago
Your link says "Allegations". What is proven? Not much. The article suggests the U.S. was not too keen on Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia and when they did actively support a group it was the non communist groups. China and Thailand actively supported the Khmer Rouge.
refurb 6y ago
Your article says “allegations”, but you’re stating it as fact.
- truculent 6y ago
  It also has a section "Undisputed US support"
  - refurb 6y ago

walrus01 6y ago

Yes, and if you want an example of American political hypocrisy in things like international war crimes courts, I'm honestly astonished that people like Slobodan Milosevic were prosecuted, but Kissinger hasn't spent the past 30 years in a prison cell.

lostlogin 6y ago
I’m sure there is some hyperbole in your comment - no part of it is even faintly surprising I don’t think. The idea of an American soldier being prosecuted by that court just seems so far fetched. The wiki is worth a read, and some of the US concerns certainly make you think, however the opposition overall is rather lame. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Intern...
ngold 6y ago
Apparently his only punishment was investing in theranos.
rumanator 6y ago
> I'm honestly astonished that people like Slobodan Milosevic were prosecuted, but Kissinger hasn't spent the past 30 years in a prison cell. In your opinion what did Kissinger do that amounts to genocide of his own people, not to mention the string of assassinations of his domestic opponents?
- walrus01 6y ago
  The international war crimes court is not limited to only persons who have committed genocide against their own people.
  - rumanator 6y ago
    You're the one who decided to explicitly compare Kissinger with Milosevic. Milosevic was trialed for his role in he Bosnian genocide, among other war crimes. If you cannot understand why Milosevic was on trial but Kissinger wasn't then please explain, in your own word, what did Kissinger do that was worse than genocide of his own people.

bezmenov 6y ago

> People usually refer to the bombing of Cambodia as if it had been unprovoked, secretive U.S. action. The fact is that we were bombing North Vietnamese troops that had invaded Cambodia, that were killing many Americans from these sanctuaries, and we were doing it with the acquiescence of the Cambodian government, which never once protested against it, and which, indeed, encouraged us to do it… Why is it moral for the North Vietnamese to have 50,000 to 100,000 troops in Cambodia, why should we let them kill Americans from that territory… and why in all these conditions is there a moral issue? Henry Kissinger on the bombing of Cambodia in 1969

peisistratos 6y ago

Kissinger's documented order was "anything that flies on anything that moves". While the Nuremberg trials had a lot of evidence, they never had such direct documentary evidence of a call for genocide like that. (or is that overblown? Perhaps only for the Cambodians fighting against the CIA backed coup of Lon Nol should shirts be torn in accusations of genocide).

rumanator 6y ago
> Kissinger's documented order was "anything that flies on anything that moves". Wrong. That quote is a report from a direct order from Nixon. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1463099/Kissingers-tapes-put-Nixon-lies-in-spotlight.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/...
- peisistratos 6y ago
  So your counterpoint is that the call to genocide was one he relayed directly from the president of the USA? The "I was only following orders" defense did not fly at the Nuremberg trials.
  - rumanator 6y ago
    > So your counterpoint is that the call to genocide was one he relayed directly from the president of the USA? I presented no counterpoint, I've pointed out the fact that you're basing your accusations on claims that are patently wrong, if not intentionally false and disingenuous. And while on the topic of disingenuous statements, please revise your sources because the Cambodja bombing campaign does not come close to fit the definition of genocide.