4 ms·

> China puts their own citizens in concentration camps. Is putting other countries citizens in concentration camps somehow morally superior? > They're using

> China puts their own citizens in concentration camps. Is putting other countries citizens in concentration camps somehow morally superior? > They're using machine learning to generate social scores. America also has this they just call it a "credit score" or "klout". > If you don't like America or the UK, you can leave. Wow all my US expat friends who constantly complain about having to pay US taxes despite living here in the UK must have things totally wrong then. > it's not racist to not like these horrible cultural values or to go against them. No it's racist to ignore the injustices we commit in the west while condemning Asian countries for doing the same thing with different branding. The argument isn't "China is good actually." It's "We do most of the same stuff you are accusing them of."

reaktivo 6y ago
Don't forget about the prison population and the prison industrial complex in the US
RHSeeger 6y ago
> Wow all my US expat friends who constantly complain about having to pay US taxes despite living here in the UK must have things totally wrong then. If you are a US citizen, you are expected to pay a certain amount of US taxes even while living abroad. Presumably, this is because you still benefit from bring US citizen while living abroad. > No it's racist to ignore the injustices we commit in the west while condemning Asian countries for doing the same thing with different branding. No, that's hypocrisy, which is a totally different thing from racism.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  The motivation for the hypocrisy, if we're assuming good faith, is either chauvinism or racism.
  - RHSeeger 6y ago
    Or the fact that most people are inclined to look upon the actions of their own country with rose colored glasses, where they are less likely to do so for other countries. There's nothing racist about that.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      When it's at the point where you destroy the lives of tens of millions of people based on illusory moral superiority, that's called chauvinism.
Nursie 6y ago
> Wow all my US expat friends who constantly complain about having to pay US taxes despite living here in the UK must have things totally wrong then. This is not the same as being physically restrained from leaving, and they would find these stop if they renounce US citizenship. > The argument isn't "China is good actually." It's "We do most of the same stuff you are accusing them of." But we don't, neither to the same scale nor intensity. It's not racist to criticise the actions of another country, even if your own isn't perfect. You can criticise both, and you can call out which is worse. In this case it is the undemocratic nation suppressing speech and political expression, while commiting racist, demographic genocide within its own borders.
Waterfall 6y ago
Yes. The point is not to hurt your own civilians, aka civilization. I don't even understand why you question that. Our credit system is bad and theirs is worst. Next topic? They can at any point renounce their citizenship, but they don't and continue to pay their taxes. I grew up with cultural values, and I don't like the Chinese ones. Does that mean the US is perfect? Of course not. Whataboutism is cushioning the evil creeping, instead of trying to stop the incoming flood, you're busy mopping up the puddle.
gspr 6y ago
> Is putting other countries citizens in concentration camps somehow morally superior? No, but since a country usually has jurisdiction over most of its citizens, concentration camps for those is a tool that is readily available. Putting other countries' citizens in concentration camps isn't morally superior, but it's a tool that usually has enormously bigger repercussions in international politics. Or if you're very bothered with the actual wording, how do you feel about a phrase like "he murdered his own neighbor"? Does it, to you, try to communicate that murdering non-neigbhors is morally superior? I don't think most people read it like that. > America also has this they just call it a "credit score" or "klout". Except these aren't systems explicitly constructed by the state that you are not allowed to speak out against. I, too, am worried by the diminishing power of the common worker in capitalist systems, but at least that worker can speak out against the system. And if he says "fuck the president", it doesn't affect his credit score. Nor does jaywalking. Etc. > Wow all my US expat friends who constantly complain about having to pay US taxes despite living here in the UK must have things totally wrong then. Indeed, the US system of worldwide taxation is pretty insane. That is, however, uniquely American, and does not apply to the West as a whole. Moreover, you can leave by renouncing the citizenship. Yes, that is a ridiculous demand – trust me, I know – but it's nowhere near needing government permission to leave the country. > No it's racist to ignore the injustices we commit in the west while condemning Asian countries for doing the same thing with different branding. Are you conflating "ignoring western injustices" with "not explicitly bringing out western injustices in every piece of writing about Chinese injustices"? I would claim that discourse in the West is pretty good at debating the injustices of Western societies. > The argument isn't "China is good actually." It's "We do most of the same stuff you are accusing them of." We do not. Here are some of the worst "stuff" China is being accused of: * Concentration camps for an ethnic group (do not mix this up with another injustice, like the immigrant detention camps at the US southern border) * Arbitrary punishment (do not mix this up with another injustice, like police violence). * No protections of privacy whatsoever (do not mix this up with another injustice, like expansion of surveillance powers) * No protection of free speech * The lack of democracy (do not mix this up with another injustice, like the erosion of democracy in some Western countries)

reaktivo 6y ago

Don't forget about the prison population and the prison industrial complex in the US

RHSeeger 6y ago

> Wow all my US expat friends who constantly complain about having to pay US taxes despite living here in the UK must have things totally wrong then. If you are a US citizen, you are expected to pay a certain amount of US taxes even while living abroad. Presumably, this is because you still benefit from bring US citizen while living abroad. > No it's racist to ignore the injustices we commit in the west while condemning Asian countries for doing the same thing with different branding. No, that's hypocrisy, which is a totally different thing from racism.

sudosysgen 6y ago
The motivation for the hypocrisy, if we're assuming good faith, is either chauvinism or racism.
- RHSeeger 6y ago
  Or the fact that most people are inclined to look upon the actions of their own country with rose colored glasses, where they are less likely to do so for other countries. There's nothing racist about that.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    When it's at the point where you destroy the lives of tens of millions of people based on illusory moral superiority, that's called chauvinism.

Nursie 6y ago

> Wow all my US expat friends who constantly complain about having to pay US taxes despite living here in the UK must have things totally wrong then. This is not the same as being physically restrained from leaving, and they would find these stop if they renounce US citizenship. > The argument isn't "China is good actually." It's "We do most of the same stuff you are accusing them of." But we don't, neither to the same scale nor intensity. It's not racist to criticise the actions of another country, even if your own isn't perfect. You can criticise both, and you can call out which is worse. In this case it is the undemocratic nation suppressing speech and political expression, while commiting racist, demographic genocide within its own borders.

Waterfall 6y ago

Yes. The point is not to hurt your own civilians, aka civilization. I don't even understand why you question that. Our credit system is bad and theirs is worst. Next topic? They can at any point renounce their citizenship, but they don't and continue to pay their taxes. I grew up with cultural values, and I don't like the Chinese ones. Does that mean the US is perfect? Of course not. Whataboutism is cushioning the evil creeping, instead of trying to stop the incoming flood, you're busy mopping up the puddle.

gspr 6y ago

> Is putting other countries citizens in concentration camps somehow morally superior? No, but since a country usually has jurisdiction over most of its citizens, concentration camps for those is a tool that is readily available. Putting other countries' citizens in concentration camps isn't morally superior, but it's a tool that usually has enormously bigger repercussions in international politics. Or if you're very bothered with the actual wording, how do you feel about a phrase like "he murdered his own neighbor"? Does it, to you, try to communicate that murdering non-neigbhors is morally superior? I don't think most people read it like that. > America also has this they just call it a "credit score" or "klout". Except these aren't systems explicitly constructed by the state that you are not allowed to speak out against. I, too, am worried by the diminishing power of the common worker in capitalist systems, but at least that worker can speak out against the system. And if he says "fuck the president", it doesn't affect his credit score. Nor does jaywalking. Etc. > Wow all my US expat friends who constantly complain about having to pay US taxes despite living here in the UK must have things totally wrong then. Indeed, the US system of worldwide taxation is pretty insane. That is, however, uniquely American, and does not apply to the West as a whole. Moreover, you can leave by renouncing the citizenship. Yes, that is a ridiculous demand – trust me, I know – but it's nowhere near needing government permission to leave the country. > No it's racist to ignore the injustices we commit in the west while condemning Asian countries for doing the same thing with different branding. Are you conflating "ignoring western injustices" with "not explicitly bringing out western injustices in every piece of writing about Chinese injustices"? I would claim that discourse in the West is pretty good at debating the injustices of Western societies. > The argument isn't "China is good actually." It's "We do most of the same stuff you are accusing them of." We do not. Here are some of the worst "stuff" China is being accused of: * Concentration camps for an ethnic group (do not mix this up with another injustice, like the immigrant detention camps at the US southern border) * Arbitrary punishment (do not mix this up with another injustice, like police violence). * No protections of privacy whatsoever (do not mix this up with another injustice, like expansion of surveillance powers) * No protection of free speech * The lack of democracy (do not mix this up with another injustice, like the erosion of democracy in some Western countries)