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Sure, then how about these paragons of military justice: 1. In 1998, a US maring navigator flew - against US regulations - his fighter aircraft at low altitude

Sure, then how about these paragons of military justice: 1. In 1998, a US maring navigator flew - against US regulations - his fighter aircraft at low altitude over the Cavalese ski resort in Italy. The muppets managed to cut the wires of crowded cable car - killing 20 allied civilians. Captain Ashby and Captain Schweitzer were put on trial … and found not guilty of involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide. 2. In 2001 the Navy Los Angeles-class submarine USS Greeneville (SSN-772) submarine deliberately breached the surface to impress some politicians onboard. The muppets managed to sink a Japanese teaching ship - killing 9 allied civilians, including 4 children. After Commander Waddle had faced the Naval Board of Inquiry, it was decided that a full court-martial would be unnecessary and he was given an honorable discharge. I can go on, but I doubt I have the karma :)

adventured 6y ago
> I can go on, but I doubt I have the karma :) It's not just karma you're lacking. Behenna for example was held accountable. Your prior insult was quite unwarranted. Behenna served five years in prison for killing a suspected al-Qaeda terrorist (Mansur) that was linked by an intel report to a roadside bomb (that killed two of Behenna's friends). Behenna was convicted of "unpremeditated murder in a combat zone" and was released from prison in 2014. After prison, Behenna completed five years of parole and Trump pardoned the remaining five years. I don't agree with the pardon, however you of course made it sound like Behenna avoided prison time and there was zero accountability.
- pinkfoot 6y ago
  And the muppets in the ski area?
  - throwanem 6y ago
    Both dishonorably discharged, which has consequences in later life not unakin to a felony conviction, and also renders post-separation benefits null and void. One also served a few months prison time. If you want to argue it's not enough, fine. But to claim they faced no consequences whatsoever is substantively false to fact.
    - pinkfoot 6y ago
      I never claimed they faced no consequences, but the OP's claim that the US military are held to much higher standards of accountability that the civil service is not justified. And I showed why.
    - Dayshine 6y ago
      > Both dishonorably discharged, which has consequences in later life not unakin to a felony conviction, and also renders post-separation benefits null and void Those sound like penalties due to their negligence, not due to the manslaughter. If you design a building negligently, it collapses and nobody dies: You lose your job, never work in the industry again, and face civil lawsuits for damages (there goes your pension). If you design a building negligently, it collapses and people die: All of the above, plus a severe criminal conviction. If you fly a plane negligently and damage public infrastructure, I sincerely hope you would be dishonorably discharged. So, one could argue they faced little consequence for the deaths they caused, despite having a higher level of responsibility. (Whether the actual consequences of an action vs the possible consequences of an action should decide the punishment is a whoooole other topic)
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Both dishonorably discharged, which has consequences in later life not unakin to a felony conviction A DD has consequences more akin to a previous for-cause termination than a felony conviction. It does remove the advantages being a veteran gives you over everyone else, at the same time, which together might be similar in magnitude to a felony conviction, though.
dctoedt 6y ago
1. The pilot (Ashby) and NFO (Schweitzer) were subsequently convicted of conduct unbecoming for destroying evidence; each was dismissed from the Marine Corps (the officer equivalent of a dishonorable discharge, which in turn is the equivalent of a felony conviction, which stays with you for life), and Ashby was imprisoned for six months. [0] 2. The USS Greeneville incident was a career-ender for pretty much everyone who was even remotely involved; that's small comfort to the families of the people who died, but the problem seems to have been one of failing do one last precautionary check after doing others, and Murphy's Law worked its magic. I wasn't a sub sailor so I can't really opine as to whether or not that was grossly negligent or simply one of those stupid mistakes that humans sometimes make. [1] [0] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(1998) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(199... [1] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_collision#/Findings_of_the_court https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_c...
- lultimouomo 6y ago
  So the civilian contractor who set on fire a submarine with no casualties (linked elsewhere in this thread) got 17 years of jail, but the military pilot who killed 20 innocent civilians (in an allied country, while not even being at war) got 6 months. Not a blazing example of military accountability.
  - jvanderbot 6y ago
    Yes, intent matters.
  - dctoedt 6y ago
    Well, let's see: On the one hand, the Marine pilot did something that in different circumstances he would have been required to do (low-level flight, e.g., in combat and/or in training for combat). Moreover, there was considerable doubt whether they had been provided with up-to-date maps showing what areas were off-limits. They were acquitted of the manslaughter charges — but they were later cashiered for destroying evidence, i.e., a videotape of the accident [2], because for military officers, integrity is supposed to be at the top of the list of required personal qualities. Oh, and let's not forget that the pilot and NFO had previously had good records (AFAIK) and for many years had been putting their asses on the line for their country every single time they took off in a plane. (There's an old joke that when you join the U.S. military, you sign a blank check made out to the People of the United States of America, payable in any amount up to and including your life.) On the other hand, we have the civilian "yardbird" who, wanting to go home, intentionally started a fire that led to the essentially-total loss [3] of a major national military asset. "Rear Adm. Richard Breckenridge, a submarine group commander, said the ship's extensive damage had ripple effects around the Navy, delaying repairs on other vessels and leading to longer deployments for thousands of sailors." [4] If you don't see why that might lead to very-different sentences for the two cases, I'm afraid we don't have much else to discuss on that point. [2] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(1998) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(199... [3] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/USS_Miami_(SSN-755)#/2012_fire https://www.wikiwand.com/en/USS_Miami_(SSN-755)#/2012_fire [4] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/15/nuclear-submarine-fire/1990663/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/15/nuclea...

adventured 6y ago

> I can go on, but I doubt I have the karma :) It's not just karma you're lacking. Behenna for example was held accountable. Your prior insult was quite unwarranted. Behenna served five years in prison for killing a suspected al-Qaeda terrorist (Mansur) that was linked by an intel report to a roadside bomb (that killed two of Behenna's friends). Behenna was convicted of "unpremeditated murder in a combat zone" and was released from prison in 2014. After prison, Behenna completed five years of parole and Trump pardoned the remaining five years. I don't agree with the pardon, however you of course made it sound like Behenna avoided prison time and there was zero accountability.

pinkfoot 6y ago
And the muppets in the ski area?
- throwanem 6y ago
  Both dishonorably discharged, which has consequences in later life not unakin to a felony conviction, and also renders post-separation benefits null and void. One also served a few months prison time. If you want to argue it's not enough, fine. But to claim they faced no consequences whatsoever is substantively false to fact.
  - pinkfoot 6y ago
    I never claimed they faced no consequences, but the OP's claim that the US military are held to much higher standards of accountability that the civil service is not justified. And I showed why.
  - Dayshine 6y ago
    > Both dishonorably discharged, which has consequences in later life not unakin to a felony conviction, and also renders post-separation benefits null and void Those sound like penalties due to their negligence, not due to the manslaughter. If you design a building negligently, it collapses and nobody dies: You lose your job, never work in the industry again, and face civil lawsuits for damages (there goes your pension). If you design a building negligently, it collapses and people die: All of the above, plus a severe criminal conviction. If you fly a plane negligently and damage public infrastructure, I sincerely hope you would be dishonorably discharged. So, one could argue they faced little consequence for the deaths they caused, despite having a higher level of responsibility. (Whether the actual consequences of an action vs the possible consequences of an action should decide the punishment is a whoooole other topic)
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Both dishonorably discharged, which has consequences in later life not unakin to a felony conviction A DD has consequences more akin to a previous for-cause termination than a felony conviction. It does remove the advantages being a veteran gives you over everyone else, at the same time, which together might be similar in magnitude to a felony conviction, though.

dctoedt 6y ago

1. The pilot (Ashby) and NFO (Schweitzer) were subsequently convicted of conduct unbecoming for destroying evidence; each was dismissed from the Marine Corps (the officer equivalent of a dishonorable discharge, which in turn is the equivalent of a felony conviction, which stays with you for life), and Ashby was imprisoned for six months. [0] 2. The USS Greeneville incident was a career-ender for pretty much everyone who was even remotely involved; that's small comfort to the families of the people who died, but the problem seems to have been one of failing do one last precautionary check after doing others, and Murphy's Law worked its magic. I wasn't a sub sailor so I can't really opine as to whether or not that was grossly negligent or simply one of those stupid mistakes that humans sometimes make. [1] [0] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(1998) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(199... [1] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_collision#/Findings_of_the_court https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_c...

lultimouomo 6y ago
So the civilian contractor who set on fire a submarine with no casualties (linked elsewhere in this thread) got 17 years of jail, but the military pilot who killed 20 innocent civilians (in an allied country, while not even being at war) got 6 months. Not a blazing example of military accountability.
- jvanderbot 6y ago
  Yes, intent matters.
- dctoedt 6y ago
  Well, let's see: On the one hand, the Marine pilot did something that in different circumstances he would have been required to do (low-level flight, e.g., in combat and/or in training for combat). Moreover, there was considerable doubt whether they had been provided with up-to-date maps showing what areas were off-limits. They were acquitted of the manslaughter charges — but they were later cashiered for destroying evidence, i.e., a videotape of the accident [2], because for military officers, integrity is supposed to be at the top of the list of required personal qualities. Oh, and let's not forget that the pilot and NFO had previously had good records (AFAIK) and for many years had been putting their asses on the line for their country every single time they took off in a plane. (There's an old joke that when you join the U.S. military, you sign a blank check made out to the People of the United States of America, payable in any amount up to and including your life.) On the other hand, we have the civilian "yardbird" who, wanting to go home, intentionally started a fire that led to the essentially-total loss [3] of a major national military asset. "Rear Adm. Richard Breckenridge, a submarine group commander, said the ship's extensive damage had ripple effects around the Navy, delaying repairs on other vessels and leading to longer deployments for thousands of sailors." [4] If you don't see why that might lead to very-different sentences for the two cases, I'm afraid we don't have much else to discuss on that point. [2] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(1998) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(199... [3] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/USS_Miami_(SSN-755)#/2012_fire https://www.wikiwand.com/en/USS_Miami_(SSN-755)#/2012_fire [4] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/15/nuclear-submarine-fire/1990663/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/15/nuclea...