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Yes. Canada stopped producing pennies in the fall of 2012. [0] The sky didn't fall. There was no great debate, no public opinion polls and politicians swearing

Yes. Canada stopped producing pennies in the fall of 2012. [0] The sky didn't fall. There was no great debate, no public opinion polls and politicians swearing heartily about the demise of our great nation. (Ok that's probably not true. For too many politicians that's all they do.) There was resistance when Canada dropped the $1 bill in favour of a Loonie (a $1 coin with the image of a loon on it). People bitched about having too much change in there pocket, pockets became too heavy, etc. I do however see more coins in tip & donation jars now then I ever saw paper money. This is a key difference between US policy & Canadian policy that I have informally noticed while growing up on the border (with family ties on both sides). Canadian government: We think it's a good idea, so we're going to do it. US Government: Lets have more opinion polls, and countless politicians swearing against any decent public reform or change to the status quo. Watch the media whip the public up into a frenzy. I guaranty that this will create a more frantic response and airtime then the BLM & Police Reform protests did. Side note: If you drop the penny, for the love of $diety change your sales tax structure so that it's a multiple of 5. 5%, 10%, 15%, etc... Since Canada changed but left the taxes the same (14% in Ontario IIRC) there seems to be a lot of rounding-off in favour of companies instead of consumers. $0.01-$0.02 per transaction * millions of transactions per day has got to make some accountants happy. [0]https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-s-penny-withdrawal-all-you-need-to-know-1.1174547 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-s-penny-withdrawal-all...

grawprog 6y ago
>Canada stopped producing pennies in the fall of 2012. [0] The sky didn't fall. True, but part of me still misses it. Not for any real functional reasons. The rounding issue is really nothing and seems to work out pretty evenly from what I can tell, not that I've really bothered to try and figure it out. I guess it's more sentimental reasons really. It feels odd not being able to count cash to an exact cent. You can now only hold cash up to the nearest 5¢, again not a big deal, but it just makes cash feel more second class. Then there's things like those fountains people would toss pennies into, or the whole find a penny pass it on for good luck thing, or the various phrases involving pennies. 'A penny for your thoughts and such'. These are all things that'll kind of vanish from public thought. I dunno, these are just some things i've thought of over the years since they got rid of pennies.
cellular 6y ago
I want to keep the penny, so it's cost keeps inflation down. The lowly penny could be worth more than a penny, and this can fight inflation.
BenoitEssiambre 6y ago
I wish they had dropped nickels at the same time. We could have lost one digit in the currency and kept numbers round. I just throw out nickels when I encounter them.
moolcool 6y ago
I'm totally with us ditching the penny, but I really wish we had a paper (plastic) $1. Any time you break a $5 bill you're left with a pocket full of change!
- ShorsHammer 6y ago
  I honestly can't understand why any country on Earth is still using paper for notes. Is basic materials science some bizarre foreign concept? And for anyone who thinks otherwise, I'm going for a swim with $300 in my pocket.
  - nix23 6y ago
    Swiss-money is recycled plastic+paper, i even going to dive with 300sFr in my pocket, lots of hipster-micro-breweries down there...but crackers are not allowed.
  - zeepzeep 6y ago
    > I'm going for a swim with $300 in my pocket. Money isn't waterproof where you live?
    - moolcool 6y ago
      Canada (and many other countries) has polymer bills
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      Paper money isn't waterproof in the US.
      - lostapathy 6y ago
        It's pretty close, though. It easily survives a trip through the washing machine or a swim
      - frosted-flakes 6y ago
        Yes it is. It will get soggy, but once it dries it will be perfectly fine. It's mostly cotton, isn't it?
bruce511 6y ago
>> $0.01-$0.02 per transaction * millions of transactions per day has got to make some accountants happy. You'd think, but actually no. That's because it's per transaction, so the accumulated amount is well pennies compared to the turnover. For example, say you always rounded in favor of the company. That means an average of 2c gain per transaction. If you do 2 million transactions a day that's... 40 grand! yay. Except that if the average transaction is say $50 (which seems kinda low) that means your turnover for the day was $100 million. So, in short, if you are making a lot from the rounding error, well you're making a lot lot from the actual sales.
- Sebb767 6y ago
  > Except that if the average transaction is say $50 (which seems kinda low) that means your turnover for the day was $100 million. I don't think that seems low. A grocery store or a bakery probably sees a lot of transaction in the 2$ to 5$ range. But, to be fair, even at 'only' 4 million $ turnover your point still stands.
  - vkou 6y ago
    I don't know what grocery stores you go to, but I've never seen someone standing at the checkout line, holding a single turnip. Corner stores have the occasional sub-$5 purchase, as do, of course, coffee shops.
    - mafaa 6y ago
      Single turnip is ridiculous sure but that is hardly the average sub 5 $ purchase. I have seen people check out with single pieces of fruit or like a gallon of milk regularly. Plus, in my state, you could easily get a single deli item for lunch or breakfast for ~5$ or under. Basket size (which is the term groceries use for the average purchase total) is about 50$ although it has gone up in covid19 times. That is the mean though- there is a ton of ~5$ and sub purchases
    - BlahGod420 6y ago
      I go to a major grocery store every day and buy a single diet coke. Self-checkout changed things a bit (less lines, generally).
stilley2 6y ago
> This is a key difference between US policy & Canadian policy that I have informally noticed while growing up on the border (with family ties on both sides). My wife's Canadian and I'm American, and we've discussed this point too. My theory is that Canada's parliamentary system generally puts one party in charge of the executive and legislative, so it's easier for that party to get things done. Of course there are times when a party in the US controls both branches and we still struggle to get things done. I would assume that most larger changes happens on this scenarios though. And of course the US seems to suffer from partisanship in general more than Canada, but I can't back that up.
- bumby 6y ago
  So is that a bug or a feature of the US system? On one hand, beneficial change can be painstakingly slow. On the other, malevolent change can be stymied indefinitely Edit: clarify my statement was in reference to the US
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    > On the other, malevolent change can be stymied indefinitely When the party that made the "malevolent" change is kicked out, then whatever they did can be reverted very easily. Contrast that with: if passing anything is hard, and a "malevolent" change does manage to be rammed through somehow (e.g., one party controls things for a two-year period), then reversing it will also be very difficult.
    - bumby 6y ago
      I'm not wholly convinced the first statement is the case. It's probably true for some types of changes like Executive Orders than can be easily repealed. Others, like laws and judge selections, take much longer to revert. I wonder if this is due to the lobbying culture in combination to competing interests. Somewhat humorous example: In response to the need for warm clothing in the Korean War, US lawmakers instituted an alpaca subsidy in 1952. This subsidy remained in place for over 40 years.[1] I do think there’s evidence that your second statement is true. Bad policy takes a lot of political will to overturn. [1] https://books.google.com/books?id=fV_SuDMHpOsC&pg=PA273&lpg=PA273&dq=alpaca+subsidy+korean+war&source=bl&ots=ZQaFY-WBUC&sig=ACfU3U1XRA6BJ2r_elH8lobfej9cp8QdTg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj8-o-S78zqAhW6gnIEHXUXAOcQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=alpaca%20subsidy%20korean%20war&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=fV_SuDMHpOsC&pg=PA273&lpg=...
Ensorceled 6y ago
Transactions on credit/debit cards are not rounded so it's rarely an issue these days when even corner stores are not handling much cash. Also, the rounding algorithm is in the article you linked to: > If the price ends in a one, two, six, or seven it gets rounded down to 0 or 5; and rounded up if it ends in three, four, eight or nine. That tends to work out pretty even for consumer/store if you are buying groups of randomly priced items.
Naga 6y ago
I live here in Ontario, and you're right the sky did not fall. The rounding isn't a big deal really, even on scale. It rounds to the nearest nickel, which is or is not in favour of the consumer/business. For example, $2.07 rounds to $2.05, while $2.08 rounds to $2.10. This should net out to an immaterial benefit to either side. It also is only rounded when paying cash. Card transactions are not rounded. FYI Sales tax is 13% in Ontario now
DonHopkins 6y ago
The lower the stakes, the harder the fighting, and a penny is as low a stake as there is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law >Sayre's law states, in a formulation quoted by Charles Philip Issawi: "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." By way of corollary, it adds: "That is why academic politics are so bitter." Sayre's law is named after Wallace Stanley Sayre (1905–1972), U.S. political scientist and professor at Columbia University.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality * http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/bikeshed/ http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/bikeshed/
tgb 6y ago
In what sense would rounding of sales taxes be in the favor of companies? Surely it goes to the government, not the company.
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  The rounding takes place at the point of sale, after tax is calculated. Receipts still list the un-rounded price, and tax is also paid on the un-rounded price. So to the government, it's as is if no rounding is taking place.
  - tgb 6y ago
    That is fishy.
cmrdporcupine 6y ago
I feel like we missed an opportunity to also drop the nickel and round everything to 10 cent intervals and just forget about the extra level of precision entirely. I imagine I will see this in my lifetime.
- corylulu 6y ago
  Quarters are too ingrained into things to get rid of them. So many things take quarters. And your base unit coin needs to be divisible by the rest. So we can't get rid of the nickel without also eliminating the dime... because we aren't replacing quarters.
- intopieces 6y ago
  I know that it would be a bridge too far, but having worked at a business (movie theater) that had prices only ending in 0.25, 0.50, 0.75, or .00, I would love for the whole country to just have quarters and be done with it. Though, since I rarely handle change at all — if I do use cash, I usually find the first place near my hand to donate whatever metal comes back to me - I suppose I’m not the target audience anyway.
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  What about the 25 cent piece (the quarter)?
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    Change them to 20 cent, "fifths" :-)
  - jdofaz 6y ago
    Did you ever noticed that gas is priced down to the mill even though those coins haven't circulated in a long time? Most people don't even know what they are. I think it would be a fine to drop the penny and nickel from circulation, just let it become an obscure unit.
philistine 6y ago
The rounding only happens on paper transactions. Since most transactions are made using plastic, where no rounding happens, the impact is terribly small. You do realize you’re being guilty of exactly what you’re decrying in American politics? You’re over analyzing a minuscule impact that would result from a change to the status quo.
- BlahGod420 6y ago
  I think the idea is to determine whether or not it is indeed miniscule. Once people realize it is miniscule, they will probably accept it. Personally, I think it makes accounting more annoying for businesses. I say leave the penny as it is, and move everyone to plastic.
- robbrown451 6y ago
  I'd rather they round it on all transactions. Gets really weird when the cash register says one thing and you have to pay something else.
Mister_Snuggles 6y ago
Another thing to remember about Canada is that we don't use cash as much as the US. Cash accounts for less than half (44%), by volume, of transactions in Canada. I'm not sure what the split between Interac (direct debit from your bank account) and credit cards is, but the mechanics of the transaction are almost identical - Interac prompts you for an account to pay from, both prompt for your PIN. When you pay for something electronically, the rounding rules don't apply. If my bill comes to $10.42, I can save two cents by paying cash thanks to the rounding rules. But if it comes to $10.98, I save two cents by paying electronically.
- seanmcdirmid 6y ago
  > Cash accounts for less than half (44%), by volume, of transactions in Canada. That’s about where the USA is as well. Cash is used in 31% of consumer transactions. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/06/spike-the-dollars-obit-cash-is-still-a-growth-business.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/06/spike-the-dollars-obit-cash-... Anecdotally I haven’t carried cash around in years.
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    > Anecdotally I haven’t carried cash around in years. Generally I keep a $40 in the wallet just in case there is a cash-only situation, but that's literally just a backup -- 99% of transactions are on some kind of card.
nayuki 6y ago
> Since Canada changed but left the taxes the same (14% in Ontario IIRC) there seems to be a lot of rounding-off in favour of companies instead of consumers. $0.01-$0.02 per transaction This assertion is wrong. If the item you buy is $1.00, then after your 14% tax it will be $1.14, which is rounded up to $1.15. If the item is $2.00, then after tax it is $2.28, which also rounds up to $2.30. But if the item is $3.00, then after tax it is $3.42, which rounds down to $3.40. If the item is $4.00, then after tax it is $4.56, which rounds down to $4.55. Secondly, the rounding to nearest nickel is done per transaction, not per item. So if you go to a supermarket and pick up 3 items costing exactly $1.00, then the total you owe is $3.42 (which becomes $3.40 in cash), and it is that amount that is subjected to rounding, not the individual items (which are $1.13 and would round to $1.15). I live in Toronto and have analyzed my retail receipts. (I'm aware the HST is currently 13% but that's not relevant to this argument.) The rule about rounding to the nearest nickel is sensible enough, but I've witnessed various weird behaviors. For example, each vendor has a different kind of wording to show how they rounded your cash transaction. Some use a negative sign to show that the penny rounding deducted money from your total owed, while some use a negative sign to show that the penny rounding increased your total owed (as if you paid negative money). Also, a few vendors always round down to the nearest 5 cents (to appear nice to the customer), which causes a surprise when I'm trying to prepare the correct amount of change. Finally, some vendors don't display cash rounding on their receipts, so for them it is an oral culture that isn't formally written down.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Correct, the process is "cash rounding" or "Swedish rounding" and all the details are here [1] for all the major countries that do it. In Canada: - Prices are rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5 cents for sales ending in: 1¢ & 2¢ (rounded to 0¢); and 6¢ & 7¢ (rounded to 5¢). - Prices are rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5 cents for sales ending in: 3¢ & 4¢ (round to 5¢); and 8¢ & 9¢ (round to 10¢). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_rounding#Rounding_with_0.05_or_5_intervals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_rounding#Rounding_with_0....
- nik_0_0 6y ago
  Very interesting to check out how different POS systems handle the rounding! I share GP's assumption, assuming that businesses would re-price based on the final cost. There is a financial incentive to get the transaction to round up, and financial incentives are usually pretty motivating. (Given the max incentive is 5 cents per transaction, I might guess a focus on one-off transactions like a bag of chips, vs. the complexity of attempting to get the average grocery bill to end in the right #!) Would be interesting to see if the after-tax prices of potential single items (chips, water, pop) changed with this rule. Anything that was 99 cents, now that HST is 13%, comes to 111.8 cents, rounds to 110 cents. Bumping that to 100 cents even, rounds to 113, rounds up to 115. Profit of 5 cents on '99c/1$' item for 5% difference. Hard margins to give up!
ApolloFortyNine 6y ago
>There was resistance when Canada dropped the $1 bill in favour of a Loonie (a $1 coin with the image of a loon on it). People bitched about having too much change in there pocket, pockets became too heavy, etc. I do however see more coins in tip & donation jars now then I ever saw paper money. Sounds like you know why that is, because people don't want to be stuck carrying around big coins. >Side note: If you drop the penny, for the love of $diety change your sales tax structure so that it's a multiple of 5. 5%, 10%, 15%, etc... Since Canada changed but left the taxes the same (14% in Ontario IIRC) there seems to be a lot of rounding-off in favour of companies instead of consumers. $0.01-$0.02 per transaction * millions of transactions per day has got to make some accountants happy. Over the billions of dollars spent in a state per quarter, you are either seriously screwing consumers, or seriously reducing state government revenue. I'd really hate my 6% sales tax to be raised to 10% so that we could kill a coin I don't even use (last paid cash probably a year ago).
- ComputerGuru 6y ago
  > I'd really hate my 6% sales tax to be raised to 10% so that we could kill a coin I don't even use (last paid cash probably a year ago). If you're paying in plastic then there's no rounding.
  - ApolloFortyNine 6y ago
    Well OP did say >If you drop the penny, for the love of $diety change your sales tax structure so that it's a multiple of 5. 5%, 10%, 15%, etc. Which I assumed wouldn't be just for paying with cash. I don't know if a 'cash tax' would even be legal.
stewjacks 6y ago
You're missing the obvious way to exploit this: all consumers stand to benefit a maximum of two cents from each purchase they make by carrying both cash AND card. Since rounding only happens when paying cash, simply pay cash if the purchase could be rounded down ($_._1 or $_._2), and pay card if it could rounded up ($_._3 and $_._4). In practice, no one gives a shit because it's a penny and no one cares about the penny. QED
FireBeyond 6y ago
Re the tax situation: When Australia ditched the 1 and 2 cent coins, making 5 cents the smallest denomination, the rules were that transactions ending in 1, 2, 6 or 7 were to be rounded down to 0 or 5, respectively, and that 3, 4, 8 or 9 were rounded up, and that this was to be done at the _transaction_, not the _item_ level. Several companies and utilities had to be reprimanded or fined due to doing it per item.
Taniwha 6y ago
The correct way to change your sales-tax structure is simply to require stores quote the tax-included prices of things (like every other freaking country). It's not hard, and since businesses basically pick 'nice' values for prices, they just keep doing it.
ping_pong 6y ago
The difference is that the Canadian Federal government is extremely powerful and the provinces have very little power. In the US, the States are very powerful and the Federal government is much weaker comparatively. For anything to be done collectively across the entire US, it requires cooperation from all states, otherwise one of them can screw everything up. That inherently means more talking, more coordination, more meetings, etc. It's the fundamental difference in how each country was forme and the system that they pursued. In some ways it's better and in some ways its worse. That's why you can have very powerful states like California dictate a lot of their own destiny, but then when it comes time for a national crisis like a pandemic, everything is fucked because the US Federal government doesn't have the same level of control and power as in Canada. In Canada you didn't get the inane policy of each province buying its own PPE like in the States, driving up prices because they are all fighting each other.
- Proziam 6y ago
  Minor nitpick, just so people reading get more complete information on your example. Very few states maintained their supply of medical equipment properly. Likewise, the federal government hasn't restocked much equipment since the early? Obama administration. Unfortunately, it just wasn't made much of a priority. Of course this failure was made even more devastating due to massive global misinformation leading to late decisions and poor communication by entities that should have been more trustworthy and better equipped. --- With that said, the states rights debate is a tough nut to crack. There's been so many instances of (various) governments doing evil things that I'm not sure I'd want to centralize even more power. It's an extreme example, but I liken it to letting a Mao or Hitler take complete control for the benefit of a better healthcare system. The cost is just too great.
- bawolff 6y ago
  I dont think thats true. In canada, health care is the sole responsibility of the province. The federal government helps with planning and coordination (and maybe funding) You didnt get the insanity because the individial provinces are mostly sane. You still saw individual differences, especially look at ontario's early response.
- 6y ago
bawolff 6y ago
> Side note: If you drop the penny, for the love of $diety change your sales tax structure so that it's a multiple of 5. 5%, 10%, 15%, etc... Since Canada changed but left the taxes the same (14% in Ontario IIRC) there seems to be a lot of rounding-off in favour of companies instead of consumers. $0.01-$0.02 per transaction * millions of transactions per day has got to make some accountants happy. This 100%. Quebec is the worst - 9.975%! Why oh why. It is so much simpler to have reasonable change in alberta.
- 51Cards 6y ago
  Quebec went to 9.975 because they used to have "stacked" taxes, where you would charge GST first, then charge QST on the combined total as a second step. (yes, they QST taxed the GST) A few years back they went to a "sane" system of only charging GST and QST on the base amount, however they didn't want to lose money so they adjusted QST to 9.975 so the final tax collected would be the same as before. Source: I write point of sale systems in Canada
SuoDuanDao 6y ago
>Canadian government: We think it's a good idea, so we're going to do it. I think that is primarily a function of having three rather than two major political parties. With three parties, any party that can be on the other side of a controversial issue from the other two tends to win the argument. Hence, we're a lot more biased for action at the government level.
laurencerowe 6y ago
> Side note: If you drop the penny, for the love of $diety change your sales tax structure so that it's a multiple of 5. 5%, 10%, 15%, etc... Better to make the advertised price include sales tax so there's no surprise at the checkout.
51Cards 6y ago
Penny rounding was supposed to balance out, with 0.01 and 0.02 rounding down to 0.00 and 0.03 and 0.04 rounding up to 0.05. In theory it balances out. I don't think even adjusting your prices to get "in my favour" rounding would make that much of a difference as it's on the final total, not per item.
- grecy 6y ago
  When Australia dropped their $0.01 coin in 1992 they originally went with "nearest rounding" i.e. 0.01 and 0.02 go down, 0.03 and 0.04 go up. That only lasted a few years until they changed it to always "round up" - i.e. it always goes up to 0.05. For what it's worth, dropping the $0.01 coin is great, every time I'm in the US I try to avoid them like the plague.
  - huonpine 6y ago
    That's not true its still rounded down. https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/rounding-and-eftpos-transactions https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/rounding-and-eftpos-tr...
robbrown451 6y ago
"Side note: If you drop the penny, for the love of $diety change your sales tax structure so that it's a multiple of 5. 5%, 10%, 15%, etc." I don't think you thought that through. Unless you are going to require prices be rounded to the nearest dollar, you still need pennies or even fractional pennies to accurately pay the tax. 15% of 75 cents is 11.25 cents, for instance.
- analog31 6y ago
  I think what you do is that the government publishes a table of official roundoff values, so 15% of 75 cents becomes a thing that you look up in a table. The last state I lived in where I looked closely at the sales tax structure had a table like this for which penny to round up or down to. It eliminated all formulas and ambiguity.

grawprog 6y ago

>Canada stopped producing pennies in the fall of 2012. [0] The sky didn't fall. True, but part of me still misses it. Not for any real functional reasons. The rounding issue is really nothing and seems to work out pretty evenly from what I can tell, not that I've really bothered to try and figure it out. I guess it's more sentimental reasons really. It feels odd not being able to count cash to an exact cent. You can now only hold cash up to the nearest 5¢, again not a big deal, but it just makes cash feel more second class. Then there's things like those fountains people would toss pennies into, or the whole find a penny pass it on for good luck thing, or the various phrases involving pennies. 'A penny for your thoughts and such'. These are all things that'll kind of vanish from public thought. I dunno, these are just some things i've thought of over the years since they got rid of pennies.

cellular 6y ago

I want to keep the penny, so it's cost keeps inflation down. The lowly penny could be worth more than a penny, and this can fight inflation.

BenoitEssiambre 6y ago

I wish they had dropped nickels at the same time. We could have lost one digit in the currency and kept numbers round. I just throw out nickels when I encounter them.

moolcool 6y ago

I'm totally with us ditching the penny, but I really wish we had a paper (plastic) $1. Any time you break a $5 bill you're left with a pocket full of change!

ShorsHammer 6y ago
I honestly can't understand why any country on Earth is still using paper for notes. Is basic materials science some bizarre foreign concept? And for anyone who thinks otherwise, I'm going for a swim with $300 in my pocket.
- nix23 6y ago
  Swiss-money is recycled plastic+paper, i even going to dive with 300sFr in my pocket, lots of hipster-micro-breweries down there...but crackers are not allowed.
- zeepzeep 6y ago
  > I'm going for a swim with $300 in my pocket. Money isn't waterproof where you live?
  - moolcool 6y ago
    Canada (and many other countries) has polymer bills
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    Paper money isn't waterproof in the US.
    - lostapathy 6y ago
      It's pretty close, though. It easily survives a trip through the washing machine or a swim
    - frosted-flakes 6y ago
      Yes it is. It will get soggy, but once it dries it will be perfectly fine. It's mostly cotton, isn't it?

bruce511 6y ago

>> $0.01-$0.02 per transaction * millions of transactions per day has got to make some accountants happy. You'd think, but actually no. That's because it's per transaction, so the accumulated amount is well pennies compared to the turnover. For example, say you always rounded in favor of the company. That means an average of 2c gain per transaction. If you do 2 million transactions a day that's... 40 grand! yay. Except that if the average transaction is say $50 (which seems kinda low) that means your turnover for the day was $100 million. So, in short, if you are making a lot from the rounding error, well you're making a lot lot from the actual sales.

Sebb767 6y ago
> Except that if the average transaction is say $50 (which seems kinda low) that means your turnover for the day was $100 million. I don't think that seems low. A grocery store or a bakery probably sees a lot of transaction in the 2$ to 5$ range. But, to be fair, even at 'only' 4 million $ turnover your point still stands.
- vkou 6y ago
  I don't know what grocery stores you go to, but I've never seen someone standing at the checkout line, holding a single turnip. Corner stores have the occasional sub-$5 purchase, as do, of course, coffee shops.
  - mafaa 6y ago
    Single turnip is ridiculous sure but that is hardly the average sub 5 $ purchase. I have seen people check out with single pieces of fruit or like a gallon of milk regularly. Plus, in my state, you could easily get a single deli item for lunch or breakfast for ~5$ or under. Basket size (which is the term groceries use for the average purchase total) is about 50$ although it has gone up in covid19 times. That is the mean though- there is a ton of ~5$ and sub purchases
  - BlahGod420 6y ago
    I go to a major grocery store every day and buy a single diet coke. Self-checkout changed things a bit (less lines, generally).

stilley2 6y ago

> This is a key difference between US policy & Canadian policy that I have informally noticed while growing up on the border (with family ties on both sides). My wife's Canadian and I'm American, and we've discussed this point too. My theory is that Canada's parliamentary system generally puts one party in charge of the executive and legislative, so it's easier for that party to get things done. Of course there are times when a party in the US controls both branches and we still struggle to get things done. I would assume that most larger changes happens on this scenarios though. And of course the US seems to suffer from partisanship in general more than Canada, but I can't back that up.

bumby 6y ago
So is that a bug or a feature of the US system? On one hand, beneficial change can be painstakingly slow. On the other, malevolent change can be stymied indefinitely Edit: clarify my statement was in reference to the US
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > On the other, malevolent change can be stymied indefinitely When the party that made the "malevolent" change is kicked out, then whatever they did can be reverted very easily. Contrast that with: if passing anything is hard, and a "malevolent" change does manage to be rammed through somehow (e.g., one party controls things for a two-year period), then reversing it will also be very difficult.
  - bumby 6y ago
    I'm not wholly convinced the first statement is the case. It's probably true for some types of changes like Executive Orders than can be easily repealed. Others, like laws and judge selections, take much longer to revert. I wonder if this is due to the lobbying culture in combination to competing interests. Somewhat humorous example: In response to the need for warm clothing in the Korean War, US lawmakers instituted an alpaca subsidy in 1952. This subsidy remained in place for over 40 years.[1] I do think there’s evidence that your second statement is true. Bad policy takes a lot of political will to overturn. [1] https://books.google.com/books?id=fV_SuDMHpOsC&pg=PA273&lpg=PA273&dq=alpaca+subsidy+korean+war&source=bl&ots=ZQaFY-WBUC&sig=ACfU3U1XRA6BJ2r_elH8lobfej9cp8QdTg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj8-o-S78zqAhW6gnIEHXUXAOcQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=alpaca%20subsidy%20korean%20war&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=fV_SuDMHpOsC&pg=PA273&lpg=...

Ensorceled 6y ago

Transactions on credit/debit cards are not rounded so it's rarely an issue these days when even corner stores are not handling much cash. Also, the rounding algorithm is in the article you linked to: > If the price ends in a one, two, six, or seven it gets rounded down to 0 or 5; and rounded up if it ends in three, four, eight or nine. That tends to work out pretty even for consumer/store if you are buying groups of randomly priced items.

Naga 6y ago

I live here in Ontario, and you're right the sky did not fall. The rounding isn't a big deal really, even on scale. It rounds to the nearest nickel, which is or is not in favour of the consumer/business. For example, $2.07 rounds to $2.05, while $2.08 rounds to $2.10. This should net out to an immaterial benefit to either side. It also is only rounded when paying cash. Card transactions are not rounded. FYI Sales tax is 13% in Ontario now

DonHopkins 6y ago

The lower the stakes, the harder the fighting, and a penny is as low a stake as there is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law >Sayre's law states, in a formulation quoted by Charles Philip Issawi: "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." By way of corollary, it adds: "That is why academic politics are so bitter." Sayre's law is named after Wallace Stanley Sayre (1905–1972), U.S. political scientist and professor at Columbia University.

throw0101a 6y ago
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality * http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/bikeshed/ http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/bikeshed/

tgb 6y ago

In what sense would rounding of sales taxes be in the favor of companies? Surely it goes to the government, not the company.

frosted-flakes 6y ago
The rounding takes place at the point of sale, after tax is calculated. Receipts still list the un-rounded price, and tax is also paid on the un-rounded price. So to the government, it's as is if no rounding is taking place.
- tgb 6y ago
  That is fishy.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

I feel like we missed an opportunity to also drop the nickel and round everything to 10 cent intervals and just forget about the extra level of precision entirely. I imagine I will see this in my lifetime.

corylulu 6y ago
Quarters are too ingrained into things to get rid of them. So many things take quarters. And your base unit coin needs to be divisible by the rest. So we can't get rid of the nickel without also eliminating the dime... because we aren't replacing quarters.
intopieces 6y ago
I know that it would be a bridge too far, but having worked at a business (movie theater) that had prices only ending in 0.25, 0.50, 0.75, or .00, I would love for the whole country to just have quarters and be done with it. Though, since I rarely handle change at all — if I do use cash, I usually find the first place near my hand to donate whatever metal comes back to me - I suppose I’m not the target audience anyway.
frosted-flakes 6y ago
What about the 25 cent piece (the quarter)?
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Change them to 20 cent, "fifths" :-)
- jdofaz 6y ago
  Did you ever noticed that gas is priced down to the mill even though those coins haven't circulated in a long time? Most people don't even know what they are. I think it would be a fine to drop the penny and nickel from circulation, just let it become an obscure unit.

philistine 6y ago

The rounding only happens on paper transactions. Since most transactions are made using plastic, where no rounding happens, the impact is terribly small. You do realize you’re being guilty of exactly what you’re decrying in American politics? You’re over analyzing a minuscule impact that would result from a change to the status quo.

BlahGod420 6y ago
I think the idea is to determine whether or not it is indeed miniscule. Once people realize it is miniscule, they will probably accept it. Personally, I think it makes accounting more annoying for businesses. I say leave the penny as it is, and move everyone to plastic.
robbrown451 6y ago
I'd rather they round it on all transactions. Gets really weird when the cash register says one thing and you have to pay something else.

Mister_Snuggles 6y ago

Another thing to remember about Canada is that we don't use cash as much as the US. Cash accounts for less than half (44%), by volume, of transactions in Canada. I'm not sure what the split between Interac (direct debit from your bank account) and credit cards is, but the mechanics of the transaction are almost identical - Interac prompts you for an account to pay from, both prompt for your PIN. When you pay for something electronically, the rounding rules don't apply. If my bill comes to $10.42, I can save two cents by paying cash thanks to the rounding rules. But if it comes to $10.98, I save two cents by paying electronically.

seanmcdirmid 6y ago
> Cash accounts for less than half (44%), by volume, of transactions in Canada. That’s about where the USA is as well. Cash is used in 31% of consumer transactions. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/06/spike-the-dollars-obit-cash-is-still-a-growth-business.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/06/spike-the-dollars-obit-cash-... Anecdotally I haven’t carried cash around in years.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  > Anecdotally I haven’t carried cash around in years. Generally I keep a $40 in the wallet just in case there is a cash-only situation, but that's literally just a backup -- 99% of transactions are on some kind of card.

nayuki 6y ago

> Since Canada changed but left the taxes the same (14% in Ontario IIRC) there seems to be a lot of rounding-off in favour of companies instead of consumers. $0.01-$0.02 per transaction This assertion is wrong. If the item you buy is $1.00, then after your 14% tax it will be $1.14, which is rounded up to $1.15. If the item is $2.00, then after tax it is $2.28, which also rounds up to $2.30. But if the item is $3.00, then after tax it is $3.42, which rounds down to $3.40. If the item is $4.00, then after tax it is $4.56, which rounds down to $4.55. Secondly, the rounding to nearest nickel is done per transaction, not per item. So if you go to a supermarket and pick up 3 items costing exactly $1.00, then the total you owe is $3.42 (which becomes $3.40 in cash), and it is that amount that is subjected to rounding, not the individual items (which are $1.13 and would round to $1.15). I live in Toronto and have analyzed my retail receipts. (I'm aware the HST is currently 13% but that's not relevant to this argument.) The rule about rounding to the nearest nickel is sensible enough, but I've witnessed various weird behaviors. For example, each vendor has a different kind of wording to show how they rounded your cash transaction. Some use a negative sign to show that the penny rounding deducted money from your total owed, while some use a negative sign to show that the penny rounding increased your total owed (as if you paid negative money). Also, a few vendors always round down to the nearest 5 cents (to appear nice to the customer), which causes a surprise when I'm trying to prepare the correct amount of change. Finally, some vendors don't display cash rounding on their receipts, so for them it is an oral culture that isn't formally written down.

arcticbull 6y ago
Correct, the process is "cash rounding" or "Swedish rounding" and all the details are here [1] for all the major countries that do it. In Canada: - Prices are rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5 cents for sales ending in: 1¢ & 2¢ (rounded to 0¢); and 6¢ & 7¢ (rounded to 5¢). - Prices are rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5 cents for sales ending in: 3¢ & 4¢ (round to 5¢); and 8¢ & 9¢ (round to 10¢). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_rounding#Rounding_with_0.05_or_5_intervals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_rounding#Rounding_with_0....
nik_0_0 6y ago
Very interesting to check out how different POS systems handle the rounding! I share GP's assumption, assuming that businesses would re-price based on the final cost. There is a financial incentive to get the transaction to round up, and financial incentives are usually pretty motivating. (Given the max incentive is 5 cents per transaction, I might guess a focus on one-off transactions like a bag of chips, vs. the complexity of attempting to get the average grocery bill to end in the right #!) Would be interesting to see if the after-tax prices of potential single items (chips, water, pop) changed with this rule. Anything that was 99 cents, now that HST is 13%, comes to 111.8 cents, rounds to 110 cents. Bumping that to 100 cents even, rounds to 113, rounds up to 115. Profit of 5 cents on '99c/1$' item for 5% difference. Hard margins to give up!

ApolloFortyNine 6y ago

>There was resistance when Canada dropped the $1 bill in favour of a Loonie (a $1 coin with the image of a loon on it). People bitched about having too much change in there pocket, pockets became too heavy, etc. I do however see more coins in tip & donation jars now then I ever saw paper money. Sounds like you know why that is, because people don't want to be stuck carrying around big coins. >Side note: If you drop the penny, for the love of $diety change your sales tax structure so that it's a multiple of 5. 5%, 10%, 15%, etc... Since Canada changed but left the taxes the same (14% in Ontario IIRC) there seems to be a lot of rounding-off in favour of companies instead of consumers. $0.01-$0.02 per transaction * millions of transactions per day has got to make some accountants happy. Over the billions of dollars spent in a state per quarter, you are either seriously screwing consumers, or seriously reducing state government revenue. I'd really hate my 6% sales tax to be raised to 10% so that we could kill a coin I don't even use (last paid cash probably a year ago).

ComputerGuru 6y ago
> I'd really hate my 6% sales tax to be raised to 10% so that we could kill a coin I don't even use (last paid cash probably a year ago). If you're paying in plastic then there's no rounding.
- ApolloFortyNine 6y ago
  Well OP did say >If you drop the penny, for the love of $diety change your sales tax structure so that it's a multiple of 5. 5%, 10%, 15%, etc. Which I assumed wouldn't be just for paying with cash. I don't know if a 'cash tax' would even be legal.

stewjacks 6y ago

You're missing the obvious way to exploit this: all consumers stand to benefit a maximum of two cents from each purchase they make by carrying both cash AND card. Since rounding only happens when paying cash, simply pay cash if the purchase could be rounded down ($_._1 or $_._2), and pay card if it could rounded up ($_._3 and $_._4). In practice, no one gives a shit because it's a penny and no one cares about the penny. QED

FireBeyond 6y ago

Re the tax situation: When Australia ditched the 1 and 2 cent coins, making 5 cents the smallest denomination, the rules were that transactions ending in 1, 2, 6 or 7 were to be rounded down to 0 or 5, respectively, and that 3, 4, 8 or 9 were rounded up, and that this was to be done at the _transaction_, not the _item_ level. Several companies and utilities had to be reprimanded or fined due to doing it per item.

Taniwha 6y ago

The correct way to change your sales-tax structure is simply to require stores quote the tax-included prices of things (like every other freaking country). It's not hard, and since businesses basically pick 'nice' values for prices, they just keep doing it.

ping_pong 6y ago

The difference is that the Canadian Federal government is extremely powerful and the provinces have very little power. In the US, the States are very powerful and the Federal government is much weaker comparatively. For anything to be done collectively across the entire US, it requires cooperation from all states, otherwise one of them can screw everything up. That inherently means more talking, more coordination, more meetings, etc. It's the fundamental difference in how each country was forme and the system that they pursued. In some ways it's better and in some ways its worse. That's why you can have very powerful states like California dictate a lot of their own destiny, but then when it comes time for a national crisis like a pandemic, everything is fucked because the US Federal government doesn't have the same level of control and power as in Canada. In Canada you didn't get the inane policy of each province buying its own PPE like in the States, driving up prices because they are all fighting each other.

Proziam 6y ago
Minor nitpick, just so people reading get more complete information on your example. Very few states maintained their supply of medical equipment properly. Likewise, the federal government hasn't restocked much equipment since the early? Obama administration. Unfortunately, it just wasn't made much of a priority. Of course this failure was made even more devastating due to massive global misinformation leading to late decisions and poor communication by entities that should have been more trustworthy and better equipped. --- With that said, the states rights debate is a tough nut to crack. There's been so many instances of (various) governments doing evil things that I'm not sure I'd want to centralize even more power. It's an extreme example, but I liken it to letting a Mao or Hitler take complete control for the benefit of a better healthcare system. The cost is just too great.
bawolff 6y ago
I dont think thats true. In canada, health care is the sole responsibility of the province. The federal government helps with planning and coordination (and maybe funding) You didnt get the insanity because the individial provinces are mostly sane. You still saw individual differences, especially look at ontario's early response.
6y ago

bawolff 6y ago

> Side note: If you drop the penny, for the love of $diety change your sales tax structure so that it's a multiple of 5. 5%, 10%, 15%, etc... Since Canada changed but left the taxes the same (14% in Ontario IIRC) there seems to be a lot of rounding-off in favour of companies instead of consumers. $0.01-$0.02 per transaction * millions of transactions per day has got to make some accountants happy. This 100%. Quebec is the worst - 9.975%! Why oh why. It is so much simpler to have reasonable change in alberta.

51Cards 6y ago
Quebec went to 9.975 because they used to have "stacked" taxes, where you would charge GST first, then charge QST on the combined total as a second step. (yes, they QST taxed the GST) A few years back they went to a "sane" system of only charging GST and QST on the base amount, however they didn't want to lose money so they adjusted QST to 9.975 so the final tax collected would be the same as before. Source: I write point of sale systems in Canada

SuoDuanDao 6y ago

>Canadian government: We think it's a good idea, so we're going to do it. I think that is primarily a function of having three rather than two major political parties. With three parties, any party that can be on the other side of a controversial issue from the other two tends to win the argument. Hence, we're a lot more biased for action at the government level.

laurencerowe 6y ago

> Side note: If you drop the penny, for the love of $diety change your sales tax structure so that it's a multiple of 5. 5%, 10%, 15%, etc... Better to make the advertised price include sales tax so there's no surprise at the checkout.

51Cards 6y ago

Penny rounding was supposed to balance out, with 0.01 and 0.02 rounding down to 0.00 and 0.03 and 0.04 rounding up to 0.05. In theory it balances out. I don't think even adjusting your prices to get "in my favour" rounding would make that much of a difference as it's on the final total, not per item.

grecy 6y ago
When Australia dropped their $0.01 coin in 1992 they originally went with "nearest rounding" i.e. 0.01 and 0.02 go down, 0.03 and 0.04 go up. That only lasted a few years until they changed it to always "round up" - i.e. it always goes up to 0.05. For what it's worth, dropping the $0.01 coin is great, every time I'm in the US I try to avoid them like the plague.
- huonpine 6y ago
  That's not true its still rounded down. https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/rounding-and-eftpos-transactions https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/rounding-and-eftpos-tr...

robbrown451 6y ago

"Side note: If you drop the penny, for the love of $diety change your sales tax structure so that it's a multiple of 5. 5%, 10%, 15%, etc." I don't think you thought that through. Unless you are going to require prices be rounded to the nearest dollar, you still need pennies or even fractional pennies to accurately pay the tax. 15% of 75 cents is 11.25 cents, for instance.

analog31 6y ago
I think what you do is that the government publishes a table of official roundoff values, so 15% of 75 cents becomes a thing that you look up in a table. The last state I lived in where I looked closely at the sales tax structure had a table like this for which penny to round up or down to. It eliminated all formulas and ambiguity.