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I suspect there is a serious bias in that cohort, namely on parents being higher than average education and dedication. I know I couldn't educate my kids to un

I suspect there is a serious bias in that cohort, namely on parents being higher than average education and dedication. I know I couldn't educate my kids to university enrollment standard other than in physics, maths and such. That would cross out half their possibilities in education at least.

iateanapple 6y ago
> I know I couldn't educate my kids to university enrollment standard other than in physics, maths and such. Why not? And why would you have to? I got my kids an English tutor and an Arts tutor once a week to help where I couldn’t. College students are always looking for work so it didn’t cost a lot. These days the amount of subject material on YouTube would allow your kids to self learn most subjects once they have the maturity required. For example for drawing look at what self-taught artists are putting out with just an entry level Wacom tablet. The exceptions would probably be language (speaking) and topics like carpentry which are very practical.
- jojobas 6y ago
  >Why not? And why would you have to? Well if you put it that way, of course hiring a private tutor on every subject is in now way worse than school.
  - iateanapple 6y ago
    > Well if you put it that way, of course hiring a private tutor on every subject is in now way worse than school. I’m not sure what you are expecting? Most subjects I can learn well enough to teach and help out but there are some I don’t have any talent for. I’m saying the cost to cover those gaps is minimal and it is easy and effective. I understand the ~$70/week I paid tutors is unaffordable for some - but it’s also a lot less than the $10k+/year my state spends per kid. And it’s 1:1 or 1:2 tuition instead of 1:30.
caseysoftware 6y ago
> I know I couldn't educate my kids to university enrollment standard Other than the elite schools, I suspect you overestimate the standards and requirements.* If you have a successful white collar career, you are at least a mediocre writer. That may be enough to pass on to your kids and get them into many schools. If you acknowledge your gaps - sounds like you have - even better, now you can fill them with anything from online courses (anywhere from free to expensive), tutoring (expensive), local community college (depends), or even trading favors with other parents with opposite skills gaps (bartering ftw). * I have a homeschooled kid looking at colleges now and the standards are lower than I expected. He passed the minimum requirements years ago.
- nostrebored 6y ago
  Exactly. Often you don't have to educate kids if they don't see education as a chore. Restricting things like television and access to video games can lead to boredom. Boredom is a gift that leads to socialization or exploration. Many of these 'elite schools' are possible to transfer into, and a bigger predictor of success than prior learning is wanting to explore.
  - jojobas 6y ago
    No boredom will make one able to write essays on War and Peace to university acceptance standards or memorize the order of English kings and their wars.
    - catherd 6y ago
      Not sure about now, but 20 years ago all it took to get into the in-state university system was SAT scores and a GED. Transferring from there to other schools in the US was pretty straightforward and there weren't any application essays until grad school.
    - nostrebored 6y ago
      That's an interesting take, but it's not borne out from the people I've met. Often they do have gaps in knowledge, but reading and writing definitely aren't the problem. Most of the unschooled people I've met have had a broad knowledge base with gaps in specific areas (admittedly, most commonly math or science). But they've all been able to learn when faced with a problem. Most learning up to high school is pretty decidedly useless. Most high school subjects, like math, are taught very inefficiently and a student can catch up. Beyond that, community college transfers to prestigious universities are common. The most important piece is the ability to learn and understanding that not knowing specific subjects will be limiting in the long run.
gregjor 6y ago
Homeschooled kids have the same rate of college acceptance as schooled kids, higher according to some surveys. Many universities, including the Ivy League, have admissions programs for homeschooled kids and actively recruit them. I unschooled three kids. Two have graduated from college, no problems getting admitted or completing. I know many other homeschooling and unschooling families (secular homeschoolers) with the same experience.
- jojobas 6y ago
  You might be confirming what I said rather than disprove it. If you're well educated and have plenty of time and desire to educate your children they'll do well, school or not.
  - gregjor 6y ago
    You have to consider the rather high failure rate of public schools in the US. Professional teachers cite lack of parent involvement as the number one reason for failure in the classroom. Homeschooling usually implies significant parental involvement, though some religious parents homeschool for their own reasons that I don’t agree with. I disagree that parents must have lots of education, because unschooling lets the child direct their interests, and it’s easy to find other parents, tutors, resources to fill in. Neither my wife nor I could teach music but two of our unschooled kids learned to play instruments competently, for example. Music lessons didn’t cost any more than paying for school sports equipment. I agree that unschooling and homeschooling require time and patience, but that’s true of raising children in general.
    - jojobas 6y ago
      Imagine those kids on which the school fails without the school, at home or in the street 100% of the time. I had a very special physics teacher for a few years. I know for a fact my parents couldn't replace him however hard they tried (physics wasn't high on their priority list so they probably wouldn't try any harder than the "normal" standard). I could have been something else but I know I wouldn't be what I am.

iateanapple 6y ago

> I know I couldn't educate my kids to university enrollment standard other than in physics, maths and such. Why not? And why would you have to? I got my kids an English tutor and an Arts tutor once a week to help where I couldn’t. College students are always looking for work so it didn’t cost a lot. These days the amount of subject material on YouTube would allow your kids to self learn most subjects once they have the maturity required. For example for drawing look at what self-taught artists are putting out with just an entry level Wacom tablet. The exceptions would probably be language (speaking) and topics like carpentry which are very practical.

jojobas 6y ago
>Why not? And why would you have to? Well if you put it that way, of course hiring a private tutor on every subject is in now way worse than school.
- iateanapple 6y ago
  > Well if you put it that way, of course hiring a private tutor on every subject is in now way worse than school. I’m not sure what you are expecting? Most subjects I can learn well enough to teach and help out but there are some I don’t have any talent for. I’m saying the cost to cover those gaps is minimal and it is easy and effective. I understand the ~$70/week I paid tutors is unaffordable for some - but it’s also a lot less than the $10k+/year my state spends per kid. And it’s 1:1 or 1:2 tuition instead of 1:30.

caseysoftware 6y ago

> I know I couldn't educate my kids to university enrollment standard Other than the elite schools, I suspect you overestimate the standards and requirements.* If you have a successful white collar career, you are at least a mediocre writer. That may be enough to pass on to your kids and get them into many schools. If you acknowledge your gaps - sounds like you have - even better, now you can fill them with anything from online courses (anywhere from free to expensive), tutoring (expensive), local community college (depends), or even trading favors with other parents with opposite skills gaps (bartering ftw). * I have a homeschooled kid looking at colleges now and the standards are lower than I expected. He passed the minimum requirements years ago.

nostrebored 6y ago
Exactly. Often you don't have to educate kids if they don't see education as a chore. Restricting things like television and access to video games can lead to boredom. Boredom is a gift that leads to socialization or exploration. Many of these 'elite schools' are possible to transfer into, and a bigger predictor of success than prior learning is wanting to explore.
- jojobas 6y ago
  No boredom will make one able to write essays on War and Peace to university acceptance standards or memorize the order of English kings and their wars.
  - catherd 6y ago
    Not sure about now, but 20 years ago all it took to get into the in-state university system was SAT scores and a GED. Transferring from there to other schools in the US was pretty straightforward and there weren't any application essays until grad school.
  - nostrebored 6y ago
    That's an interesting take, but it's not borne out from the people I've met. Often they do have gaps in knowledge, but reading and writing definitely aren't the problem. Most of the unschooled people I've met have had a broad knowledge base with gaps in specific areas (admittedly, most commonly math or science). But they've all been able to learn when faced with a problem. Most learning up to high school is pretty decidedly useless. Most high school subjects, like math, are taught very inefficiently and a student can catch up. Beyond that, community college transfers to prestigious universities are common. The most important piece is the ability to learn and understanding that not knowing specific subjects will be limiting in the long run.

gregjor 6y ago

Homeschooled kids have the same rate of college acceptance as schooled kids, higher according to some surveys. Many universities, including the Ivy League, have admissions programs for homeschooled kids and actively recruit them. I unschooled three kids. Two have graduated from college, no problems getting admitted or completing. I know many other homeschooling and unschooling families (secular homeschoolers) with the same experience.

jojobas 6y ago
You might be confirming what I said rather than disprove it. If you're well educated and have plenty of time and desire to educate your children they'll do well, school or not.
- gregjor 6y ago
  You have to consider the rather high failure rate of public schools in the US. Professional teachers cite lack of parent involvement as the number one reason for failure in the classroom. Homeschooling usually implies significant parental involvement, though some religious parents homeschool for their own reasons that I don’t agree with. I disagree that parents must have lots of education, because unschooling lets the child direct their interests, and it’s easy to find other parents, tutors, resources to fill in. Neither my wife nor I could teach music but two of our unschooled kids learned to play instruments competently, for example. Music lessons didn’t cost any more than paying for school sports equipment. I agree that unschooling and homeschooling require time and patience, but that’s true of raising children in general.
  - jojobas 6y ago
    Imagine those kids on which the school fails without the school, at home or in the street 100% of the time. I had a very special physics teacher for a few years. I know for a fact my parents couldn't replace him however hard they tried (physics wasn't high on their priority list so they probably wouldn't try any harder than the "normal" standard). I could have been something else but I know I wouldn't be what I am.