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> Blacklists are to become either “denylists” or “blocklists” and whitelists will become “allowlists” or “passlists”. I'm glad they chose allow/denylist instea

> Blacklists are to become either “denylists” or “blocklists” and whitelists will become “allowlists” or “passlists”. I'm glad they chose allow/denylist instead of another often proposed redlist/greenlist. From a language learning point of view it's much more clear than having to figure out the local customs on how colors map to concepts. (e.g. a red market in asia = stocks went up, green = stocks went down)

donatj 6y ago
I mean on the one hand stoplights are pretty universal. On the other hand, redlist just pushes the "race issue" from one race onto another.
- robbrown451 6y ago
  Not really on the race issue. The difference is that "black" is an accepted, common term for people with noticeable sub-Saharan African ancestry (or who identify as such). So using the same term to essentially mean "bad" is problematic. "Red" is no longer common at all for referring to Native Americans (even less so as of this week thanks to getting rid of the name Redskins), and I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who identifies as a "red person." Also, red in this usage would entail more of a stretch to consider that it means "bad." It just means "stop," which is far more neutral.
  - donatj 6y ago
    I'm guessing you don't live near an Indian reservation and have no idea what you're talking about. I hear the term "red man" probably a couple times a month. Also: see the Washington Redskins
robbrown451 6y ago
I'm fine with his choices, but the meaning of red and green as stop and go has become quite universal. Is there anywhere in the world that doesn't have traffic lights? (ok, anywhere in the world that you'd be likely to see a linux device) I see it regularly extended to such things as "accept" vs "decline" on phone screens when a call comes in. Applying those colors to stock market charts is not a particularly natural extension of the concept, though. Although I'd pick green as "up", still, it isn't as direct as something like allow/pass or deny/block. Those fall well into red light / green light territory to me.
- seanmcdirmid 6y ago
  Bhutan doesn't have any traffic lights. They tried one out briefly, but the people didn't like it. They do have some programmers, probably more than a few Linux installations. Not sure if they have any Linux developers, but it wouldn't be incredibly surprising if they had a couple.
  - robbrown451 6y ago
    It doesn't surprise me that someone would come up with a counterexample. :)
- chillacy 6y ago
  Maybe not directly related but some traffic lights in japan are more what we'd call blue than green https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/515205/why-does-japan-have-blue-traffic-lights-instead-green https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/515205/why-does-japan-ha... At the end of the day why bother with another quirky cultural color-meaning-pair when there's something so literal available? I want to avoid re-learning terms when we meet aliens who happen to perceive colors in our visible spectrum ;)
  - robbrown451 6y ago
    Of course, for a Japanese person coding in English that's the least of their problems.... I'll admit the benefits of color-coding things are less if you are using words as opposed to actual colors, but I still think an argument could be made for using green and red, since deny/block and allow/pass seem a bit too closely tied to a specific expected action. I could imagine uses of the terms in the future (not necessarily in linux code) where those descriptors don't quite work, but where the colors names communicate the concept in a more general way. It reminds me of the issue with the idea of calling black people "African Americans." It wasn't all that well thought through, because it is overly specific and doesn't work for, say, a black person who never lived in America.
    - chillacy 6y ago

donatj 6y ago

I mean on the one hand stoplights are pretty universal. On the other hand, redlist just pushes the "race issue" from one race onto another.

robbrown451 6y ago
Not really on the race issue. The difference is that "black" is an accepted, common term for people with noticeable sub-Saharan African ancestry (or who identify as such). So using the same term to essentially mean "bad" is problematic. "Red" is no longer common at all for referring to Native Americans (even less so as of this week thanks to getting rid of the name Redskins), and I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who identifies as a "red person." Also, red in this usage would entail more of a stretch to consider that it means "bad." It just means "stop," which is far more neutral.
- donatj 6y ago
  I'm guessing you don't live near an Indian reservation and have no idea what you're talking about. I hear the term "red man" probably a couple times a month. Also: see the Washington Redskins

robbrown451 6y ago

I'm fine with his choices, but the meaning of red and green as stop and go has become quite universal. Is there anywhere in the world that doesn't have traffic lights? (ok, anywhere in the world that you'd be likely to see a linux device) I see it regularly extended to such things as "accept" vs "decline" on phone screens when a call comes in. Applying those colors to stock market charts is not a particularly natural extension of the concept, though. Although I'd pick green as "up", still, it isn't as direct as something like allow/pass or deny/block. Those fall well into red light / green light territory to me.

seanmcdirmid 6y ago
Bhutan doesn't have any traffic lights. They tried one out briefly, but the people didn't like it. They do have some programmers, probably more than a few Linux installations. Not sure if they have any Linux developers, but it wouldn't be incredibly surprising if they had a couple.
- robbrown451 6y ago
  It doesn't surprise me that someone would come up with a counterexample. :)
chillacy 6y ago
Maybe not directly related but some traffic lights in japan are more what we'd call blue than green https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/515205/why-does-japan-have-blue-traffic-lights-instead-green https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/515205/why-does-japan-ha... At the end of the day why bother with another quirky cultural color-meaning-pair when there's something so literal available? I want to avoid re-learning terms when we meet aliens who happen to perceive colors in our visible spectrum ;)
- robbrown451 6y ago
  Of course, for a Japanese person coding in English that's the least of their problems.... I'll admit the benefits of color-coding things are less if you are using words as opposed to actual colors, but I still think an argument could be made for using green and red, since deny/block and allow/pass seem a bit too closely tied to a specific expected action. I could imagine uses of the terms in the future (not necessarily in linux code) where those descriptors don't quite work, but where the colors names communicate the concept in a more general way. It reminds me of the issue with the idea of calling black people "African Americans." It wasn't all that well thought through, because it is overly specific and doesn't work for, say, a black person who never lived in America.
  - chillacy 6y ago