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The greatest privilege we never talk about: beauty
- oconnor663 6y ago> Beauty might be the single greatest physical advantage you can have in life. Oh for God's sake, some people are born without eyes. > Attractive people might have a hard time coming to terms with all of this. Doing so would require relegating at least part of their achievements to something mostly unearned. No one deserves anything. The idea falls apart as soon as we even begin to examine it. I could walk into the woods and build a hut out of mud and sticks. Did I "earn" that mud hut, or was I privileged to be born with hands? Does the fact that most people are born with hands matter? If so, how can we quantify how it matters? At the end of the day, none of this makes any sense, and we need to come up with notions of "success" (socially speaking) and "property rights" (legally speaking) that are based on something else.
- 3pt14159 6y ago> In a meta analysis of the role of attractiveness in criminal sentencing, it was found that unattractive people received 120–305 percent longer sentences than attractive people. I wonder if this is an evolved phenomenon. Societies where punishment was harsher on the less attractive was faster to remove less fit genes than otherwise and, thus, out competed their adversaries. (Obviously abhorrent on a human level, though.)
- DoreenMichele 6y agoBeauty isn't as simple as being born looking a certain way. It can be influenced by health. It can be influenced by social savvy. It can be influenced by socioeconomic class. To think that it merely reflects your genes vastly oversimplifies it. (I was once "beautiful." I have a genetic disorder. This is a subject I have thought a lot about over the years.)
- FriendlyNormie 6y agoJesus, do you ever shut the fuck up? Stop posting. HN isn’t your personal blog. You should be banned. We’ve all heard enough from you and not nearly enough from everyone else.
- cafard 6y ago"The ladies have as much beauty here as in other places, but bloom and softness are not to be expected among the lower classes, whose faces are exposed to the rudeness of the climate, and whose features are sometimes contracted by want, and sometimes hardened by the blasts. Supreme beauty is seldom found in cottages or work-shops, even where no real hardships are suffered. To expand the human face to its full perfection, it seems necessary that the mind should co-operate by placidness of content, or consciousness of superiority." -- Samuel Johnson, A Journey to the Western Islands of Scotland.
- sudhirj 6y agoThe beauty as symmetry metric is purely genetic, but yes, grooming can add a lot of beauty points. The other metric is also body type preference, which seems more scarcity related - people in food-scarce locations will consider larger bodies attractive, but will change their preferences if they relocate to a different part of the earth. A symmetric person will likely be considered beautiful in rags (unless they’re malnourished) and a non-symmetric person can be considered beautiful with some grooming, both physical and personality wise. The Queer Eye show made this pretty popular, at least in my circles.
- DoreenMichele 6y agoDegree of symmetry can change over time depending on health status.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- poiuytrewqa 6y agoActually not really, I mean if you're ugly and rich you're just ugly with money. You may get benefits just because you've money. But if you don't show off then there's no way to influence your "perception of beauty" Beauty has more to do with culture (what do we consider good looking and what not) but there's also an objective beauty that has to do with body proportion for example https://www.nature.com/articles/526S16a.pdf https://www.nature.com/articles/526S16a.pdf
- watwut 6y agoNot really, because your beauty strongly depends on hair cut, skin care, clothes you wear, the way you move and so on. How fit you are and how healthy you are. In case of women, the exactly right make up. The same person can look beautiful and ugly depending on all of that.
- poiuytrewqa 6y agoWell, then we can but also plastic surgery on the mix if that matter. I thought it was implicit that we're talking about natural beauty without make up perhaps. And no, beauty does not depends the clothes you wear for example (makeup, yes I second that if is very thick can change the way a person look)
- watwut 6y agoYou dont know much about makeup and hairstyles and clothing, do you?
- jmmcd 6y ago> if you're ugly and rich you're just ugly with money Spending money on the right things can make a large difference. Teeth, skincare, diet, haircut, clothes, time in the gym, quitting a job that would keep you in the sun too long, ...
- zzzddds 6y agoI think these are actually pretty accessible things that everybody can spend money on (skincare, haircut, clothes, gym)
- justinmchase 6y agoAlso age of course, which affects everyone alive
- jazzyk 6y agoThere are people who age extremely well, though. Audrey Hepburn, in her early sixties (just before her death) was stunningly beautiful. She was merely "cute" when she was in her twenties.
- david38 6y agoAs a guy, I find that most guys dismiss beauty as luck while chasing girls who have it. They fail to realize that a sizable percentage of attractive girls don’t roll out of bed a 10. They watch what they eat, they run, work out, pay special attention to clothes, makeup, hair, etc. It adds up to a couple hours each day. In the age of instagram, the bar has only risen higher. When I see beauty now I think of the effort it takes to stay that way and silently congratulate them.
- ewindal 6y agoIt is, though. Luck (genetics) determines your baseline and roof. No amount og grooming and training will change your potential.
- mellosouls 6y agoIt's certainly true that beauty is a massive privilege and discriminator but the title is somewhat hyperbolic; it is unlikely to be the greatest (compared to the more obvious ones like race and gender etc) and is certainly talked about, though not as much as it should be.
- Sessions 6y agoThe title is not saying 'this is the greatest privilege of all, and we don't talk about it'- it's saying 'among the privileges we don't talk about, this is the greatest.' Still might not be true, but it's less hyperbolic.
- mellosouls 6y agoYes, fair point - I misread. My second point stands though, it's certainly talked about, but maybe not as much as it should be.
- watwut 6y agoThe way we evaluate people as beautiful depends on race, they are not independent variable. If people inherently perceive white features as more beautiful or female features as more beautiful, then beauty perception will be impossible to distinguish from those other biases.
- greenshackle2 6y agoYou're reading it as "beauty is the greatest privilege, and we never talk about it" but I'm pretty sure it's meant to be read as "out of the privileges we never talk about, beauty is the greatest one". Race and gender are not part of the category "privileges we never talk about".
- jmmcd 6y agoWell, there's a study in the article where being "ugly" is measured as 10x the effect size of being the "wrong" race. This was in criminal sentencing.
- gwright 6y ago
- ed25519FUUU 6y agoOne of the first “privileges” I learned about in my life was being tall. Why was it the first? Because short kids and friends I knew would openly lament about being short. Something I could tell they think about constantly, and something I never thought about. I suspect it’s played a large role in dating and interviewing for jobs, though no one ever openly says “you’re projecting more confidence simply because you’re taller than average”
- J-dawg 6y agoBeing tall is a huge privilege for a man. It's a large component of male attractiveness. Many women make it clear on dating sites that they won't consider anyone below a certain height, or at least taller than they are.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- omarhaneef 6y agoNever talk about it? Ever hang out with college age people? They talk about it a lot.
- naringas 6y agoi think they mean talking about in the context of privilege
- klyrs 6y agoIt's a key component of incel discourse, in my experience.
- 082349872349872 6y agobecause unlike most privilege feedback loops, people who are beautiful now tend to become less beautiful, rather than more, over time?
- poslathian 6y agoThis feels like an absolutely crucial distinction, across decades there is no positive feedback strong enough to keep individual beauty going up.
- seebetter 6y agoPeople are more biased by charisma, beauty, having a skill, being fashionable, being talented, working hard etc etc. The idea that race alone is a deciding factor is minor compared to how attractive you are in general.
- ISL 6y agoReading this article reminds me of Vonnegut's imagining of a future I never thought would happen: http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
- AlexandrB 6y agoWhile I agree with this overall, this list in the middle of the article was unsourced and presented as "just-so": > Here is a list of features that are objectively beautiful, and their absence, objectively ugly. Facial and body symmetry; proportional anatomy, height (particularly among men); a full set of straight, white teeth; a full head of hair; clear, evenly-toned, taut, skin; a well-toned physique; proportional features; large eyes. Of these, the "well-toned physique" is probably historically incorrect[1] - excess weight signified wealth and health for much of human history. Likewise, "a full head of hair" is somewhat gender-specific - super important for women, but many men can rock a bald head pretty well. Overall, I think beauty ideals are somewhat more flexible than this article assumes. This is especially true for romantic attraction and especially in some communities. [1] Searching for this yields a lot of spam, best I found after a few minutes: https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/07/health/body-image-history-of-beauty-explainer-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/07/health/body-image-history-of-...
- kiplkipl 6y agoI find the CNN examples tenuous. If the same logic was applied to today's relics in the future, historians might say that 8 foot tall anime women were idealised beauty, in the same way newly discovered buildings tend to be called temples. In reality (from the male perspective) preferences vary massively between individuals. If Rubens' women are an ideal, why aren't Picasso's?
- superkuh 6y agoSociety is very quickly becoming obsessed with turning Kurt Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron" cautionary tale into reality.
- komali2 6y agoI disagree entirely. I see people being lifted up. In that story, people were torn down. I have noticed this trend though, of reacting to justice movements by claiming it'll tear down people. Why do you believe this?
- andreilys 6y agoThere’s a lot of vitriol aimed at rich people right now, regardless of how they attained their wealth. I imagine it’ll soon be transferred to talented people as well. Soon we’ll be right where the story predicted, everyone wears handicaps to make themselves equal.
- ThrowawayR2 6y agoPerhaps it's here already? We see a lot of posts here on HN denigrating the value of higher education and saying that highly-educated people are gatekeeping.
- logicchains 6y agoI don't think many people here object to education, they just disagree that the university system does a good job of educating people.
- wishinghand 6y agoThe objection is not to highly educated people gatekeeping (though they should know better), but that people with a status that helps unlock further wealth are gatekeeping.
- rmrfstar 6y ago> There’s a lot of vitriol aimed at rich people right now, regardless of how they attained their wealth. Part of the problem is that our current property regime does not distinguish between property acquired through accession [1] and property acquired through extraction. There is this weird philosophy that all "market transactions" are equally legitimate and that market price is the correct (and only reliable) indicator of economic value. This view ignores the fact that market prices are as much a product of market structure as they are a reflection of people's preferences. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_(property_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_(property_law)
- kevinventullo 6y ago"She must have been extraordinarily beautiful, because the mask she wore was hideous."
- nobrains 6y agoReally? I disagree. Those who do not have beauty, end up compensating for it by exceeding in some other trait, and in the end, these other traits, or the ability to exceed in these other traits is the privilege, those not endowed with beauty get. So, it balances, and sometimes to the benefit of those not endowed with beauty.
- saas_sam 6y agoDo you feel that way about every differential advantage, such as money and family support in childhood, or is there something unique about beauty that causes people to compensate better?
- fizixer 6y ago> Those who do not have ... compensating for it by exceeding in some other trait ... So what do you think the definition of 'privilege' is?
- hoytschermerhrn 6y agoSource? I’m skeptical of your claims but interested in any content that backs it up.
- stinkytaco 6y ago> Those who do not have beauty, end up compensating for it by exceeding in some other trait Unless you're not intelligent either. Or don't have the socioeconomic advantages of a good education. Or are a poor athlete. And, of course, there are people who are all of these things. Being beautiful does not mean you cannot excel in other traits. Everyone does not start equal. People's genetics and the circumstances of their birth are causes of inequality. It does not end up balanced.
- caddie 6y agoBeauty is 99% hard work and 1% inherited.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y agoCan you explain? There are people who are beautiful without any grooming.
- caddie 6y agoadd 300 pounds and let's see if they're still beautiful
- oblio 6y agoTell that to a guy who's 1m 50 tall :-)
- tomrod 6y agoDan Hamermesh (well known labor economist) spent a significant part of his career investigating the economic outcomes of beauty. [0] Book: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691158174/beauty-pays https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691158174/be... [1] Daily show: https://econ.video/2017/11/27/the-daily-show-ugly-people-discrimination/ https://econ.video/2017/11/27/the-daily-show-ugly-people-dis...
- vinceguidry 6y agoWe never talk about it? Seems for a long time it's all we talked about. You don't have to go very far online without running into somebody ranting about the privileges that beauty brings, and people with that privilege talking about how it's not a silver bullet to life's problems and brings with it it's own challenges. Fat shaming, thin shaming, thigh gaps, Chads and Stacys, my head hurts just thinking about it all. Everything old is new again.
- lalos 6y agoIt depends, we have the dumb blond stereotype and I know of developers who are attractive and have a harder time interviewing because they get perceived as dumber. It could be that there's an unconscious bias of hiring someone that looks like a stereotypical movie hacker (long hair, beard, wearing old tech swag, etc). This is of course changing slowly after Apple made a push on cleaning up the image of all the higher ups to have them be part of the presentations and now all companies seem to hire PR consultants that work the appearance of their clients. You sort of see this aesthetic trickle down with time. 1) Jonny Ive http://www.edibleapple.com/2010/04/14/back-when-jonathan-ive-had-hair-and-a-mustache/ http://www.edibleapple.com/2010/04/14/back-when-jonathan-ive... 2) Thiel and Musk (check Thiel's teeth) https://i.insider.com/5dc349153afd375c04352664?width=1136&format=jpeg https://i.insider.com/5dc349153afd375c04352664?width=1136&fo... 3) Bezos https://i.insider.com/596ccf31abc1c828528b4c9a?width=1136&format=jpeg https://i.insider.com/596ccf31abc1c828528b4c9a?width=1136&fo... Guess money fixes beauty :)
- xwdv 6y agoDamn how did Elon Musk regrow that much hair?
- gburdell3 6y agoHair transplants, most likely. They pull follicles from the back of your head and transplant them onto the temples and crown to fill in thin spots.
- remarkEon 6y agoMoney.
- lossolo 6y agoThere are only two ways to fix what he had. First is a hair transplant, he would be around NW6 now so it was a lot of grafts. Second way is a hair system (rebranded toupee), you can't really tell if someone is wearing one if it's good, you can have exposed hairline, modern hair styles etc.
- zeveb 6y ago
- xwdv 6y agoBeauty is an earned privilege.
- MattGaiser 6y agoWho doesn’t talk about this? You see this discussion everywhere from The Guardian to Incel forums. You see activists going on about “beauty standards.” This is often discussed.
- ma2rten 6y agoI can think of one that's even greater: intelligence.
- anthonygd 6y agoDepends how you quantify privilege. I've seen a few convincing arguments that, for men at least, height is a better predictor of success than intelligence.
- nl 6y agoNote that most (all except one?) of the studies on attractiveness in sentencing were using mock juries or similar (unlike the race based statistic which uses real data). In the single study that was based on real data there was no control for income. The impact of that should be obvious to all: richer people are generally better groomed in court and have better representation.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago> On the unofficial but universally-understood 10-point scale of looks, I’ve heard people call themselves a five, but never a one or a two. You might tell a friend “you’re a 10” but when was the last time you told someone you respect “you’re ugly.” In the world of euphemisms, “average” is the new below average and “ugly” is a taboo term reserved mostly for high school bullies or kids playing in sandboxes — or whatever it is five year olds do now. Or maybe it's because beauty, just like most other traits in nature, follows the normal distribution, so most of us are around 5, and very few are really ugly (or astonishingly beautiful).
- anegri 6y agoAlthough this is a real phenomenon, individuals do possess the ability to improve their looks. With maybe a couple exceptions, nearly everyone can become very attractive if they take care of themselves, dress well, and lead a healthy lifestyle.
- joyeuse6701 6y agoI am inclined to agree with you, but as a counterpoint consider that if you're an African-American woman, the cost of adhering to U.S.A beauty standards is high, several hundreds of dollars a month. This is not an exceptional but a considerable minority that can't become 'very attractive' without heavy expense, and can't easily lead a healthy lifestyle when they are priced out of everywhere but places that are food deserts.
- anegri 6y agoThat's a good point. I was considering this through the lens typical of me and my peers rather than that of overall "American" standards.
- at_a_remove 6y agoAs a counterpoint, you have facial scarring, skin conditions, gross asymmetry, bad proportions, bad teeth, nerve damage from Bell's palsy or the like, pigmentation problems, and so on to more or less obliterate the "nearly everyone" bit.
- anegri 6y agoI guess I should have been more specific, how about 95%+ of the population? I just more often than not hear this line of thinking from people who definitely could look better but choose not to put in the effort to do so. In general I do agree its a problem, but its one people have actual agency over.
- bradlys 6y ago> nearly everyone can become very attractive if they take care of themselves, dress well, and lead a healthy lifestyle. You're going to have to define very attractive. No amount of healthy lifestyle will make your breasts bigger. No amount of dressing well will make your face less ugly (short of putting a curtain in front of it). There are hard limits to what you can do as an individual without surgery. Even with surgery, you still will run into a wall.
- greggman3 6y ago40 Rock talked about it at least twice. In one episode some man who was supposed to be super attractive to everyone had no idea he was so bad at everything. He passed through life because everyone let him off the hook for his beauty. In another episode a beautiful assistant started at the studio and charmed everyone into getting her way. When Liv confronted her about it she replies that if it's fair for Liv to use the brains her genetics gave Liv than it was fair to her to use the beauty genetics gave her.
- hkmurakami 6y ago30 Rock. A doctor played by John Hamm, who is a fabulous looking man. The bit with the blonde was delicious.
- _bxg1 6y agoThis came to mind for me too. It's the only example I can think of in popular culture or otherwise where the issue has been tackled so directly.
- huy-nguyen 6y agoI remember that episode. The "super attractive man" was played by Jon Hamm.
- netsharc 6y agoAre you from a parellel universe? In this reality it's 30 Rock and the main character is Liz Lemon.
- greggman3 6y agoHaha, I only watched the first 2 seasons or so and what was 20 years ago (yes, the number was a joke)
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y agoOkay, phew - I thought I might be having a stroke.
- save_ferris 6y agoI recently went on a first date with a woman that was certifiably gorgeous and wound up having one of the most fascinating conversations on this topic. She discussed her prior career in the military, where she spent 8 years and ultimately got pushed out by a high-ranking officer (also female) in her division for very political reasons. It wasn't just a superficial rant, she described an incredibly detailed pattern of abuse and obstruction by some of her COs. My main takeaway was that attractive people tend to get more attention. Much of it is probably good attention, but this isn't always the case. A few days after that date, I heard about Vanessa Guillén, an Army soldier murdered by a CO after suffering from persistent sexual harassment by him[0]. 0: https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/06/fort-hood-soldier-vanessa-guillen/ https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/06/fort-hood-soldier-va...
- zeveb 6y ago> I heard about Vanessa Guillén, an Army soldier murdered by a CO The other soldier mentioned in that article was the same rank, not a commanding officer (CO). In no way diminishes the seriousness of the apparent murder, of course.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago> Good looks, just like intelligence, positive affect, or disease-resistance, is a largely genetic advantage in life that we should not punish. Well, wait a few years. I was surprised so many times recently with ridiculous initiatives, and I'm sure it can get way worse than that.
- bjarneh 6y agoThat was some depressing reading..
- HPsquared 6y agoHow does one separate cause from effect here? People who are more privileged have two advantages: they have more resources with which to maximise their 'beauty', and also beauty standards will tend towards emulating those of higher status.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago> compared to other other privileges that may arise from race, gender, or sexuality, we don’t talk much about it. Because beauty is relative. Whiteness and maleness are absolute. Sexuality, once outed, is also absolute.
- J-dawg 6y agoThis is a good example of how the modern philosophy of identity politics falls apart when you seriously examine it. Think of all the ways that people are innately privileged (or not): intelligence, height, beauty, upbringing, parental wealth, personality profile. Any combination of the above can have a vastly greater impact on a person's life outcomes than race, gender, sexuality etc.
- merpnderp 6y ago"In the year 2081, the 211th, 212th, and 213th amendments to the Constitution dictate that all Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter, better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else. The Handicapper General's agents enforce the equality laws, forcing citizens to wear "handicaps": masks for those who are too beautiful, loud radios that disrupt thoughts inside the ears of intelligent people, and heavy weights for the strong or athletic."
- nathanaldensr 6y agoHarrison Bergeron[1], for those who don't know. A wonderful short story. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
- 1996 6y agoJust wait until genetic self hacking start, and people can increase their intelligence, change their personality profile, skintone etc.
- Nokinside 6y agoBeing ugly, middle aged woman is like invisibility cloak in certain work environments. In one of my first jobs I worked with female electrical engineer like that. It took me few years to gradually discover how good she was. She had good ideas and solved problems but we somehow forgot where the idea came after we talked it over. It somehow became team effort. After someone was boasting how they had high scores in Mensa test, she just casually mentioned that she had scored 155. I later started a company with her. The best decision I have ever made. Imagine working with Elon Musk who is enthusiastic about chess, crocheting and mushroom picking.
- silveroriole 6y agoWow, grim. As someone who’s on their way to being an ugly middle aged female engineer this is tough reading. Did you ever tell her you spent years completely discounting her and ‘stealing’ her ideas? I wonder what she thinks about that.
- Nokinside 6y agoOh she knows. She also knows that there was nothing she could do. If she pushed back she was being a bitch. If not, nobody notices. We became friends and started company together. She was already 20 years older than me. She is now financially independent and retired. In the end she did better than anyone else in the company where we met. This happened in late 90's early 2000's so things may have changed.
- stronglikedan 6y agoWhy tell her something she already knew?
- umvi 6y ago> Did you ever tell her you spent years completely discounting her and ‘stealing’ her ideas I don't think the "discounting"/"stealing" was intentional... and it's not necessarily exclusive to women. "Selling yourself" is a skill that even men struggle with, especially the quiet, introverted, but definitely intellectual types.
- diffrinse 6y agoNietzsche claimed Socrates' renowned and profound ugliness would've been seen as an implicit argument against him in his trial since ancient Athenian culture openly associated ugliness with untrustworthiness.
- diffrinse 6y agoAs a follow-up, Aristophanes made it a point to underline Socrates' ugliness in his depiction of him in The Clouds
- VarFarYonder 6y agoDoug Stanhope did a good bit on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgXwc-Gy19E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgXwc-Gy19E
- mam2 6y agoSo when is america going to do positive discrimination toward ugly people ?
- bglusman 6y agoI'll just leave this here as highly recommended and relevant Ted Chiang story, "Liking what you see: A Documentary" (PDF link to story) https://canvas.wayne.edu/courses/102861/files/3959556/download?download_frd=1 https://canvas.wayne.edu/courses/102861/files/3959556/downlo...
- greggman3 6y agoI used to believe people were born beautiful and there is some truth to it but even the people I've thought were most beautiful, if I look hard enough, generally I can see they're just normal people who spend more time on grooming, style, clothing, posture, presentation, charm, etc... Maybe they got lucky and some of it came naturally, not necessarily genetically though possibly but more like serendipity to gain those habits or skills. Take the most beautiful person you know and see them when they're sick and they rarely stay attractive. In any case it's arguably learnable. I don't know if this example will resonate but certain cities have a culture of beauty. Tokyo is one. People dress up to go out, at least most women do. I use to think it was either (a) they were born attractive or (b) the city attracted beautiful people. But, I've changed my mind. Instead the city culture has set a standard and people, in general, feel pressure to try to adhere to it. I know it's an anecdote but a very attractive women once told me the only difference between attractive and not is effort. We all probably know exceptions but in my experience they are fairly rare. I'm not saying everyone can be a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10 but I'm confident the majority of people can be 7-8 even 9 with effort. Many of the most beautiful people I know, put them in drab clothing with no make up and try to remove your memory of their prior attractiveness and they just look like plain ordinary people.
- ericmcer 6y agoYou can't be unattractive and then hit the gym for a few months and put on a collared shirt and be hot. Better looking than before sure, but not beautiful. It is a nice myth for people to comfort themselves with I guess. It is also viewed as unattractive to 'try really hard' when it comes to physical appearance so you can have the reverse affect if your efforts to make yourself attractive are too blatant.
- swat535 6y agoYea exactly, no amount of exercising will change your height as a man or the way you look. E.g All else being equal, you're going to have a hard time finding a partner if you are 5'5 male. Unfortunately, unattractive people will have to put in a lot more effort to succeed in life, especially with regards to dating.
- kindatrue 6y agoSomething I noticed recently (prepandemic of course) after living in Silicon Valley for 20 years: the amount of plastic surgery that you see around town in Palo Alto has really gone off the charts. Both men and women. So much botox. So much nips/tucks. It feels like Los Angeles light.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y agoSoftware is centered in Silicon Valley, entertainment is centered in Los Angeles, and ageism is rampant in both industries. It's not surprising that a culture of plastic surgery would emerge here compared to a place like New York, whose main industry is finance (where being perceived as older isn't nearly as much of a career headwind).
- jb1991 6y agoI am probably the most beautiful person I know. I am in every way an embodiment of physical perfection. I stand in the mirror and sometimes can’t help but notice just how remarkable my reflection is. Despite all of this, I’ve had a long, and very difficult life. So many of the ugly people around me are faring far better. So I’m not so sure.
- quikoa 6y agoNot to downplay the difficulties that you've faced. But that's extrapolating on very little data. Luck is another (big) factor in life.
- side_up_down 6y agoWhat?
- jeanofthedead 6y agoMay I recommend avoiding large, reflective bodies of water.
- jb1991 6y agoYes, you may. And I thank you in advance for that recommendation. However I’m not sure how useful it will be. My reflection has a way of emerging everywhere I go, like the sun piercing a dark cloudy sky, my warmth eventually finds its way into my surroundings.
- shureluck 6y agoRofl the fact people are taking your comment seriously says a lot about the shear lack of humor on this site
- BoiledCabbage 6y agoBrilliant comment. And the fact that most of the responses to you are confused by it shows how ludicrous it is. And yet when someone uses that exact same reasoning in a different context people are somehow unable to see its absurdity and vehemently agree with it.
- chanandler_bong 6y agoEven in the most trivial sense, I have seen it in action. Me (normal looking guy) and the GF (average-trending-to-pretty) at a fast food restaurant. I go up to the counter and ask for a couple extra sauce packets, only to be told they are 0.25 each. GF goes up 1 minute later, asks for two sauce packets and is given a hand full, for free.
- klyrs 6y agoHow many sauce packets does it take to fill the wage gap?
- mlvljr 6y agoIs that one of those back of the napkin quick estimate interview questions?
- SergeAx 6y agoThat could be attributed to gender or charm.
- flarg 6y agoIt's charm, my wife is assertive and charming whereas I am merely assertive and threatening, she never has to pay for sauce packets!
- motohagiography 6y agoSteve Martin once said about Gael Garcia Bernal, "I'd do anything to look like that guy, except eat right and exercise." It's very seductive to justify people's anxiety and envy by synthesizing a narrow difference into an perceived injustice. If a person is truly repellent or creepy, it's because they present something that triggers a sense of danger or disgust in others, which is completely relative to the individuals. Liars are usually repellent, so are predators, manipulators, often the mentally ill, when you get a waft of that aspect of who they are. You have to ask who benefits from you not trusting your instincts when it comes to being around people you may feel repulsed by. EDIT: corrected re comment below.
- commandlinefan 6y ago> Steve Martin once said about Brad Pitt He actually said it about Mexican actor Gael Garcia Bernal at the Oscars.
- _bxg1 6y agoBut there are lots of superficial traits that people associate with those categories of people, that don't actually serve as a remotely valid indicator. And those kinds of associations, permeated throughout society, serve to make some people's lives worse in a very real way. People on HN often overestimate the rationality of humans, and underestimate the perpetuating effect that stereotypes have.
- motohagiography 6y agoThe main issue is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect , but what gets missed when people use the Halo Effect term is that when the performance of someone attractive or charismatic is only average, we blame them for having "deceived" us, when it was our own bias toward them that caused the disappointment. Criticizing the "privilege" of the attractive as a means to de-legitimize them personally seems to double down on this error and seduce people who have the conceit of blaming others for their own biases into further self-justification, imo.
- Grimm665 6y ago> They are perceived to have better personality qualities like trustworthiness Reminds me of one of my favorite LoTR quotes, of Aragorn after first meeting him: Merry: "How do we know this Strider is a friend of Gandalf?" Frodo: "I think a servant of the Enemy would look fairer and feel fouler."
- dleslie 6y agoIt's got a name: lookism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookism
- m0llusk 6y agoThere are some important points raised here, but also a lot of sloppiness. If so much is riding on beauty then it should be important to be precise so as to understand what is going on. Beauty is inherently subjective to the point of including wild contradictions such as Europeans going to great lengths to tan their skin while Asians may poison themselves with attempt to bleach their skin to make it lighter. This is not some simple scale even if there may be examples of people that are considered beautiful by many. Modernity has made it common to be out of shape and overweight, so people who put extra effort into maintaining their health tend to be considered more beautiful than others. This means that to some extent beauty is a parameter that can be controlled. This leads to complex trade offs where beautiful people may be strongly desirable, but end up eating and exercising in a very controlled way which makes deep socialization with ordinary people awkward. Want to share lunch or a snack? Sorry, I don't snack and am not eating lunch today or most days. Want to share a drama? Sorry, I am going to the gym and expect to come back too low on time and energy for that. And so on.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- foogazi 6y agoSomeone else mentioned intelligence, but being born human puts sets you up better than any other living being on earth Also everything is a privilege now: - being human - being alive - having two legs - having two hands - having two parents - having a computer at home - having an iphone
- hithereagain 6y agoI tell you honey, it's a crying shame; All the pretty girls really look the same. -- Iggy and the Stooges
- JeremyNT 6y agoI'm a male of above average height who (by western standards) would probably rate as fairly attractive thanks to some lucky genetics. Those inherent characteristics are only part of the picture, though; at various times in my life I have varied in attractiveness greatly (i.e. deciding to work out, maintain a proper weight, and generally paying attention to my appearance), so I have experienced both sides of this effect (I imagine many attractive people have had similar experiences; remaining "attractive" is non-trivial). People do, clearly, have a bias towards whatever their standard of attractiveness is. I don't think this is really a controversial observation; it's subtle in some situations, overt in others, but it almost never disappears. This is also enhanced by another effect the article doesn't really hit on: confidence. Once you realize people perceive you as attractive, you start to understand how this advantage tilts the world in your favor. You realize people may listen a bit more, so you speak up a bit more. You start putting yourself out there and more and more opportunities fall into your lap. This is, as I hinted above, something that people can make a conscious effort to achieve. I've got certain genetic advantages, and I acknowledge that, but it's amazing how far simple physical fitness, careful grooming, and confidence can go. For men who perceive themselves as unattractive, I would strongly recommend that you put forth the effort to become attractive, even if your own self-image is that you are unattractive. Your genetic predisposition may set limits and boundaries on how far you can take this effect, but if you even move the needle a little bit you can start to see gains (I'd not presume to make any such recommendation to women, because although I feel confident that attractiveness has never hurt me as a male, I do not know whether attractiveness is such a "clear win" for women). It's unfortunate that humans are wired this way, but you might as well take advantage of it.
- Sohcahtoa82 6y ago> For men who perceive themselves as unattractive, I would strongly recommend that you put forth the effort to become attractive, even if your own self-image is that you are unattractive. In dating, I've always heard two rules: 1. Be attractive 2. Don't be unattractive What's attractive is very subjective. But what's unattractive is almost universal. Take a shower, wear antiperspirant, groom your hair, and make an effort to be in good physical shape. Men, if you're growing a beard, groom it. If not, shave it regularly. I look back at pictures of my early 20s when I shaved like once a month out of laziness, and damn I looked terrible. #BlunderYears I've seen first-hand people that believe they've failed at #1, so they ignore #2.
- x87678r 6y agoIts amazing that people I work with spend years and years at school learning "skills" but spend no time learning looking good, social skills or how to dress properly.
- mjw1007 6y agoPerhaps they consider that people who spend effort on looking good or dressing "properly" are playing defect in a game of Prisoner's Dilemma.
- dathinab 6y ago> a full set of straight, white teeth; Funny thing is in some Asian countries having a certain form of "crooked" teeth is often seen as more attractive (in woman). Similarly having body volume (e.g. slightly overweight) is often seen as attractive (in man). (As it convoys wealth, only wealthy people can afford to eat that much.) Honestly most, not the large majority of people is not ugly and can have reasonable good looks if they do carry them self properly and war clean clothes, hair, etc. Sure much more can be done using makeup or similar but that costs time and money every day and is normally not necessary. Sure people which look rally good still do have some benefit. I just mean that for many people the problem is not inborn bad looks but how they carry them self IMHO. But then beauty is very subjective so I wouldn't be surprised if many people thing differently.
- baron816 6y agoJudging by stereotypes, I wouldn’t expect people here to pay that much attention to their looks. But clearly it matters...a lot. After reading this article, it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone why people, especially women, spend so much time and money obsessing over their appearance. Yes, you could argue that it shouldn’t be this way and people shouldn’t dwell on looks so much. But it doesn’t matter how right you are. Attraction isn’t rational. It’s emotional and instinctive. So do yourself a favor and always try to look your best. You don’t need to care about what people think about you, but should care about what people feel towards you, because it will impact the quality of your life.
- hprotagonist 6y ago“If a person has ugly thoughts, it begins to show on the face. And when that person has ugly thoughts every day, every week, every year, the face gets uglier and uglier until you can hardly bear to look at it. A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts it will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.” Roald Dahl, "The Twits" The accompanying illustration has stuck with me for going on 30 years now: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/45/2c/c9452c05e8c3e60455a3158c45e4c790.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/45/2c/c9452c05e8c3e60455a3... I have met my share of people who by rights ought to be physically attractive but are not, which also reminds me of Shelley: Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown/ And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command...
- mjw1007 6y agoSo if I see someone with a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and I don't perceive anything that gives me the impression of sunbeams shining out of their face, should I assume they have ugly thoughts rather than good ones?
- hprotagonist 6y agospend some time with them and find out! “handsome is as handsome does” is at least as old as Chaucer.
- pragmatic 6y agoI don't think we realize how much "work" some people have had done. Take Elon Musk. It's amazing how his hair grew back and that's he's aged so well considering the stress he's under. Hair implants, Botox and a nip and tuck here and there will keep you looking your billionaire best. I was oblivious to this type of thing with men until my wife started pointing it out. It's no wonder that among the things that money can buy is happiness if plastic surgery improves your esteem and how people react to you.
- stunt 6y agoBeauty is a gift but not a privilege. I don't think the attention you get or you don't get for it is valuable or is going to change your life. Sure, some of the people around you are going to pay more attention to you but you will not earn anything for it. No investor is going to invest on you because you are beautiful. You don't get to control your life only because you are beautiful. It's other talents that you have and the choices you make that really helps you to construct your life. And you get more privilege when you are more successful. If someone is extremely beautiful and made a career in beauty or fashion, it's not because (s)he is beautiful. Otherwise every naturally beautiful person could make it.