21 ms·

With cops away, it’s like Capitol Hill is slipping back to the Pinkerton’s era

84 points by Plasmoid 6y ago

reidjs 6y ago
I really have no idea who to believe when it comes to the CHOP zone because there’s so many incentives to lie. I’m curious if anyone on HN lives nearby and can comment on their experience. Thanks.
- Stubb 6y ago
  I really have no idea who to believe because there’s so many incentives to lie. FTFY.
- 6nf 6y ago
  There’s a YouTube channel called cctvuser that has the most complete record of what happened in the Chaz. It is hundreds of hours of video collected from dozens of sources covering almost all the important bits and a lot of the boring parts. It’s as unfiltered as you’re likely to get in my opinion.
- staticfloat 6y ago
  I live nearby and visited on June 14th for a few hours, at around 3pm. I note the time because the conclusions I came to during my time there are dependent both on the time of day, as well as the date. First off, while I was there, it was an overall friendly, bustling atmosphere. There were no armed security forces, no armed thugs demanding protection money from businesses, etc... It felt more like the Folklife festival; there were parents with their kids, people doing street art, and stalls selling food. While most people were wearing masks, there was also a distinct lack of social distancing. My first impression was that this was a plausible excuse for people to be outside and in a large, social situation. It was a beautiful sunny day, of course people want to be outside. There was a central event area where there were some kind of organized speeches/events. While I was there, a speaker was talking about the unjust seizure of land in the Seattle area from an indigenous people group, and after that there was a musical performance from members of that indigenous group. All around the area there were solicitors urging the passers by to sign petitions and vote on various issues. The craziest things I saw were people digging up Cal Anderson park lawn spaces to create vegetable patches. There was an incredible amount of graffiti all over the place, a high percentage of it anti-cop. There were stalls with free granola bars/water/other snackish things and a few pieces of first aid equipment, all labeled as "supplies for protesters". What follows are my opinions and interpretations: I do not believe the CHAZ/CHOP had any real impact on the political discourse of Seattle. There was heavy protesting and rioting beforehand in the Capitol Hill area up to the retreat of the Police from that precinct (for those unfamiliar with Seattle political geography, Cap Hill is an epicenter of progressive/liberal culture) and the retreat of the police was a very good move from the government's standpoint. By giving a very small area of land over to "the protesters" (whatever group may take that mantle upon themselves) the city government did two things: it successfully redirected attention away from the police and the issue at hand, and it allowed the protest movement to collapse under its own weight. I was struck by the lack of focus of the protest movement; while the police were pushing back against the protests, there was a very clear message being sent through social media, the traditional media, and in the channels of political discourse: The current level of police violence is unacceptable. However just a few days after the CHAZ/CHOP was born, a large number of tangentially-related concerns bubbled to the surface. While I was there, I was approached by solicitors that wanted to pass better environmental regulations, pass legislation to protect trans teens, and institute new taxes on large corporations (e.g. Amazon). All three were motivated in some way ("POC communities are usually the first to suffer in environmental disasters, to protect these communities we must protect the environment", or "how will we pay for new social programs? Tax Amazon!") but it was very clear to me that without keeping a strong focus on changing policies to suppress police violence, outsiders of this movement would be enabled to glance into the cauldron of demands and simply state "the socialists are yelling again". With regards to the shootings, I can say that while I nor anyone I know who went to the zone personally saw firearms, I know they were there at some point, and there were people with more firepower than sense taking advantage of the lack of cops to do whatever they wanted. I can see the tone of the area changing drastically between 3pm and 3am (which is when some of the shootings occured) and while I am certain the lack of police presence did not help matters, Seattle does have shootings every now and then. It's not immediately clear to me how much of the shootings is or is not due to lack of police. I have not been to capitol hill since the police moved back in; from what I have heard from other people who have been there, things are more or less "normal" now, just with more graffiti and street art. I don't know what's going to happen to the vegetable gardens. ;)
  - 6nf 6y ago
    The graffiti is being cleaned up and a lot of it is already gone. The vegetable gardens are gone.
    - brendanr 6y ago
      The vegetables gardens were there literally 90 minutes ago when I took a photo of them.
      - 6nf 6y ago
        There's videos of them being cleaned up a few days ago, so maybe they left some of it?
    - brbsix 6y ago
      I just walked through Cal Anderson Park this evening. The gardens are still intact. There are huge elevated 55g drums of water for irrigation, it's hard to miss.
- lykr0n 6y ago
  I lived above it. I can answer some questions. Proof: https://imgur.com/a/7hKqmUe https://imgur.com/a/7hKqmUe Authoritative Sources of information: - https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/ - https://twitter.com/Omarisal https://twitter.com/Omarisal To kick things off: - Local business hired a PMC/Local Armed Security group (don't remember the name) to provide real security after Car Tender was attacked. On the night that happened, they had a dude with an AR15. What happened was some junkie/non protester jumped a fence, started a fire, took some cash, and keys to vehicles. The owners (dude with a gun) detained him, but protesters started mobbing and forced them to release the dude who broke in. Some stuff was recovered by the mob. - There was at least two armed groups of volunteer security. One organized one (the gun club mentioned and the now well known picture of the dude with the ar15, vest, and green bandana- this dude: https://libertyunyielding.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/armed-guard-ar-CHAZ-1200x630.jpg https://libertyunyielding.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/arm...) was part of it. From what I've been told, they were organized and mostly on the roof providing overwatch and sniper support in case something happened. The other group was possible gang bangers- these are the people who shot the white jeep and most likely executed one person. Then there is "Raz." I am unware of his involvement other then breaking multiple state and federal firearms laws. - Towards the end, a majority of the population was a mixture of homeless, gang members, and non-local people who came to support the vision of CHAZ. There was protesters, but their numbers deminished
  - _bxg1 6y ago
    I support drastic police reform, but anyone who thinks pure anarchy will work clearly doesn't know much history. It's been tried time and again and again. The sad truth is that it always implodes.
    - lykr0n 6y ago
      I do as well. 100% we need reform. There are more then a few "for sale" signs in Capital Hill that I've walked past in the past few weeks. I watched a few people move out of my building and I'm planning on leaving shortly when I land a new job (or I don't)- just gotta find out which.
- throwaway43234 6y ago
  Visited June 29 for a number of hours, visited protests at the police line after it was dismantled approx. Jul 1-4. The area proper on 29 was generally enjoyable to be around. Observed lots of drifter types, no visible violence, some good musical performances, nice community gardens, free food tent. Saw very little public drinking, some weed, lots of tobacco (mainly self-rolling, which I thought was interesting). A few circles of older folks smoking weed in circles out front their tents and hammocks on the outskirts of the habitation. The protests at the police line were very disheartening. The militarization of police was of course frightening (not for my own life so much as the state of the nation). The protesters themselves had a fair amount of infighting, some of them seemed unstable (these ones were often the ones with guns). Overall I found the CHOP area pleasant to be around, however the fact that CHOP armed guards killed more black teens in that ~2 week period than SPD in the past 6 months made me question if it was possible to logically consistently support both CHOP and BLM -- it's concerning there hasn't been more coverage of the disconnect there.
  - Thorentis 6y ago
    > however the fact that CHOP armed guards killed more black teens in that ~2 week period than SPD in the past 6 months made me question if it was possible to logically consistently support both CHOP and BLM Being able to hold conflicting beliefs simultaneously is the hallmark of a failed political ideology.
    - newacct583 6y ago
      What exactly led you to believe that the anarcholeftists who set up CHOP and the racial justice folks who started Black Lives Matter seven years earlier subscribe to the same "political ideology"? This is like arguing that technolibertarian atheists and born again evangelicals can't agree on God, therefore conservatism is a failed ideology. For the record: put me in the "police are needed to deter obvious crime and violence" camp AND the "we do WAY too much policing of things other than immediate criminal behavior" group. How's that for failed?
      - 6y ago
bpodgursky 6y ago
This is a bit dated: - It misses the part where the CHAZ "security" murdered a black teenager, and tried to kill another: https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/06/night-of-gunfire-at-capitol-hill-protest-zone-sends-at-least-two-to-hospital/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/06/night-of-gunfire-... (topical to the article, though) - The camp is gone, swept up by the SPD re-occupying the precinct. Wrapped up a couple weeks ago. If you want on-the-ground reports from people in the neighborhood (not really the camp itself), there are a LOT of threads about the CHAZ/CHOP on reddit: https://reddit.com/r/seattle https://reddit.com/r/seattle. Lot of trolling, lot of flaming, but also a lot of people who live on cap hill who talk about their experience living next to it.
- lipstone 6y ago
  They did mention his death, they just didn't mention it was CHOP security that murdered him, or the video evidence of the execution ("Oh you're still alive?" followed by a gunshot), or the fact that he was black (ironically making CHOP the greatest per-capita rate of police killings of unarmed black people). They did however mention the very incredulous rumor that the murdered teen and his friend were shooting, which there is no evidence for and a lot of evidence against. Honestly, it's weird that an article criticizing the CHOP security debacle would decide to leave out pertinent details that help bolster the critique. As a side note, there is both/r/seattle and /r/seattlewa. Both of them are seeing heavy traffic from out-of-towners right now, but the general divide is /r/seattle is the left-leaning one and /r/seattlewa is the right-leaning one (at least within the context of Seattle).
  - bpodgursky 6y ago
    Yeah, I check out both, but didn't feel like wading into that hairball. And to be honest, just picked the one less likely to inspire downvotes and complaints.
gluoneone 6y ago
Two very interesting timeline, kind of encapsulates up the whole incident in general 1.) - Seattle mayor lets capital hill to be seized by protestors - President trump tweets wanting to send troops in - mayor tweets to tell president to butt out - protestors settled in. - few folks were shot - mayor allows “freedom of speech” - a councilwoman encourages protestors to march towards the mayors house. They do. - The mayor dismantles CHOP 2.) - BLM protestors block freeway At 2am, demanding police to be dismantled - car runs over protestors and kills/maims - police chases down and arrest the driver - no real news coverage. Because the driver is black
- jedmeyers 6y ago
  - police chases down and arrest the driver It does not seem the perpetrator was running from the police, so they did not "chase" him. Accounts show that he was avoiding the protesters and police would him very quickly once he got to safety.
- magicalist 6y ago
  > BLM protestors block freeway At 2am, demanding police to be dismantled You mean the police blocked the interstate for the protest and the driver went up an off ramp and struck two protestors, killing one. > police chases down and arrest the driver Police showed up after a civilian followed the car, yes. > no real news coverage By which you mean extensive national and international news coverage (seriously, just search for it) but it still hasn't been made clear why the driver was on the highway. Comparing these two "timelines" maybe gives more insight about you than any "incident", because they're not really parallel in spatial, personal, or temporal scope.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > it still hasn't been made clear why the driver was on the highway. This is the most interesting thing about the event. If the driver hadn't been black, even if their true (still unknown) motivations had been identical -- mental illness, for example -- the narrative would have been very different.
cft 6y ago
I recently took two years off and drove from San Francisco to Panama. I spent a lot of time in El Salvador and in Honduras and made some observations. Police in those countries are invisible (non-existent?). You can pretty much do what you want- Honduras just built a new highway system, you can drive as fast as your engine allows. But when you get to know people, the owners of small businesses will tell you that there's another kind of protection. I would call it racket. In San Pedro Sula especially, when you stop paying for protection, your troubles start. Even on the smallest personal level: there are no meters in the center. We parked on a public street, and a 15 years old teenager came and asked 20 Lempiras for parking. My very experienced German companion wanted to ignore him, but then the teen's "supervisors" showed up. They looked like people you don't want to mess with. They politely offered the schedule: 1h is 20, 30min is 10 and left. We opted tor 30min, and the teen timed us to a minute on his watch. In exchange, he "guarded" my California plated car and blocked the upcoming traffic so that I could leave the parking spot (and that he could get another "customer"). I believe some people would actually prefer that system, but so far I liked the American system better.
- agrenader 6y ago
  How this is different from local taxes? When you stop paying taxes the trouble starts. The problem arises when there are competing "protectors."
  - amscanne 6y ago
    To be fair, there’s also some due process when you’re not paying your taxes. In this case, I imagine that the process for dealing with non-payment is rather violent, inconsistent and chaotic.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      I wouldn't imagine that. Violent, yes. Inconsistent, no.
      - gruez 6y ago
Gangbusters 6y ago
In a new post-police era: The rich will have private securty. The middle class will have good guns and good ammo. The poor will have nothing and suffer.
- NotSammyHagar 6y ago
  Your imagined new era in Seattle is already over, we are back to the police acting normally.
  - lipstone 6y ago
    Considering they're likely to defund police budget by 50%, I'd say that's very wrong.
    - NotSammyHagar 6y ago
      I'd support major changes in the police funding and move more to social services, but I'm really skeptical it will happen. The mayor doesn't seem like a rock the boat kind of person.
rayiner 6y ago
Unintentionally libertarian.
- ezluckyfree 6y ago
  the fundamental problem with trying to be ancom inside an unrelentingly capitalist system
pcstl 6y ago
Who'd guess that advocating for less policing without providing a clear alternative would be terrible for everyone except for those who can pay for private security. Even bad cops are better than no cops.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Aloha 6y ago
I'd like to note, this is from before the Mayor ordered the cops back in to break it up. This quote however is a worthy take away: "As for “Defund the Police,” that slogan doesn’t mean get rid of the police completely. It’s to cut their budget and demilitarize their roles while boosting social services. This is a rational goal, but we can already see one possible unintended outcome if the people of Seattle perceive that traditional police services are declining. Those with money will just hire their own “high threat private protection services.” They’re already doing it. There’s a ton of work to be done reforming the police. But going back to the Pinkerton’s era has got to be one of worst ways to reduce inequality in a city already riven by it."
- _bxg1 6y ago
  It's hard not to think there's also a "we'll take our ball and go home" attitude going on here. People call to reign in the police, so instead of learning to de-escalate the situation they throw their hands up, stop policing an area altogether, and say "see what happens when we don't get to do things our way?"

84 points by Plasmoid 6y ago

I really have no idea who to believe when it comes to the CHOP zone because there’s so many incentives to lie. I’m curious if anyone on HN lives nearby and can comment on their experience. Thanks.

Stubb 6y ago
I really have no idea who to believe because there’s so many incentives to lie. FTFY.
6nf 6y ago
There’s a YouTube channel called cctvuser that has the most complete record of what happened in the Chaz. It is hundreds of hours of video collected from dozens of sources covering almost all the important bits and a lot of the boring parts. It’s as unfiltered as you’re likely to get in my opinion.
staticfloat 6y ago
I live nearby and visited on June 14th for a few hours, at around 3pm. I note the time because the conclusions I came to during my time there are dependent both on the time of day, as well as the date. First off, while I was there, it was an overall friendly, bustling atmosphere. There were no armed security forces, no armed thugs demanding protection money from businesses, etc... It felt more like the Folklife festival; there were parents with their kids, people doing street art, and stalls selling food. While most people were wearing masks, there was also a distinct lack of social distancing. My first impression was that this was a plausible excuse for people to be outside and in a large, social situation. It was a beautiful sunny day, of course people want to be outside. There was a central event area where there were some kind of organized speeches/events. While I was there, a speaker was talking about the unjust seizure of land in the Seattle area from an indigenous people group, and after that there was a musical performance from members of that indigenous group. All around the area there were solicitors urging the passers by to sign petitions and vote on various issues. The craziest things I saw were people digging up Cal Anderson park lawn spaces to create vegetable patches. There was an incredible amount of graffiti all over the place, a high percentage of it anti-cop. There were stalls with free granola bars/water/other snackish things and a few pieces of first aid equipment, all labeled as "supplies for protesters". What follows are my opinions and interpretations: I do not believe the CHAZ/CHOP had any real impact on the political discourse of Seattle. There was heavy protesting and rioting beforehand in the Capitol Hill area up to the retreat of the Police from that precinct (for those unfamiliar with Seattle political geography, Cap Hill is an epicenter of progressive/liberal culture) and the retreat of the police was a very good move from the government's standpoint. By giving a very small area of land over to "the protesters" (whatever group may take that mantle upon themselves) the city government did two things: it successfully redirected attention away from the police and the issue at hand, and it allowed the protest movement to collapse under its own weight. I was struck by the lack of focus of the protest movement; while the police were pushing back against the protests, there was a very clear message being sent through social media, the traditional media, and in the channels of political discourse: The current level of police violence is unacceptable. However just a few days after the CHAZ/CHOP was born, a large number of tangentially-related concerns bubbled to the surface. While I was there, I was approached by solicitors that wanted to pass better environmental regulations, pass legislation to protect trans teens, and institute new taxes on large corporations (e.g. Amazon). All three were motivated in some way ("POC communities are usually the first to suffer in environmental disasters, to protect these communities we must protect the environment", or "how will we pay for new social programs? Tax Amazon!") but it was very clear to me that without keeping a strong focus on changing policies to suppress police violence, outsiders of this movement would be enabled to glance into the cauldron of demands and simply state "the socialists are yelling again". With regards to the shootings, I can say that while I nor anyone I know who went to the zone personally saw firearms, I know they were there at some point, and there were people with more firepower than sense taking advantage of the lack of cops to do whatever they wanted. I can see the tone of the area changing drastically between 3pm and 3am (which is when some of the shootings occured) and while I am certain the lack of police presence did not help matters, Seattle does have shootings every now and then. It's not immediately clear to me how much of the shootings is or is not due to lack of police. I have not been to capitol hill since the police moved back in; from what I have heard from other people who have been there, things are more or less "normal" now, just with more graffiti and street art. I don't know what's going to happen to the vegetable gardens. ;)
- 6nf 6y ago
  The graffiti is being cleaned up and a lot of it is already gone. The vegetable gardens are gone.
  - brendanr 6y ago
    The vegetables gardens were there literally 90 minutes ago when I took a photo of them.
    - 6nf 6y ago
      There's videos of them being cleaned up a few days ago, so maybe they left some of it?
  - brbsix 6y ago
    I just walked through Cal Anderson Park this evening. The gardens are still intact. There are huge elevated 55g drums of water for irrigation, it's hard to miss.
lykr0n 6y ago
I lived above it. I can answer some questions. Proof: https://imgur.com/a/7hKqmUe https://imgur.com/a/7hKqmUe Authoritative Sources of information: - https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/ - https://twitter.com/Omarisal https://twitter.com/Omarisal To kick things off: - Local business hired a PMC/Local Armed Security group (don't remember the name) to provide real security after Car Tender was attacked. On the night that happened, they had a dude with an AR15. What happened was some junkie/non protester jumped a fence, started a fire, took some cash, and keys to vehicles. The owners (dude with a gun) detained him, but protesters started mobbing and forced them to release the dude who broke in. Some stuff was recovered by the mob. - There was at least two armed groups of volunteer security. One organized one (the gun club mentioned and the now well known picture of the dude with the ar15, vest, and green bandana- this dude: https://libertyunyielding.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/armed-guard-ar-CHAZ-1200x630.jpg https://libertyunyielding.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/arm...) was part of it. From what I've been told, they were organized and mostly on the roof providing overwatch and sniper support in case something happened. The other group was possible gang bangers- these are the people who shot the white jeep and most likely executed one person. Then there is "Raz." I am unware of his involvement other then breaking multiple state and federal firearms laws. - Towards the end, a majority of the population was a mixture of homeless, gang members, and non-local people who came to support the vision of CHAZ. There was protesters, but their numbers deminished
- _bxg1 6y ago
  I support drastic police reform, but anyone who thinks pure anarchy will work clearly doesn't know much history. It's been tried time and again and again. The sad truth is that it always implodes.
  - lykr0n 6y ago
    I do as well. 100% we need reform. There are more then a few "for sale" signs in Capital Hill that I've walked past in the past few weeks. I watched a few people move out of my building and I'm planning on leaving shortly when I land a new job (or I don't)- just gotta find out which.
throwaway43234 6y ago
Visited June 29 for a number of hours, visited protests at the police line after it was dismantled approx. Jul 1-4. The area proper on 29 was generally enjoyable to be around. Observed lots of drifter types, no visible violence, some good musical performances, nice community gardens, free food tent. Saw very little public drinking, some weed, lots of tobacco (mainly self-rolling, which I thought was interesting). A few circles of older folks smoking weed in circles out front their tents and hammocks on the outskirts of the habitation. The protests at the police line were very disheartening. The militarization of police was of course frightening (not for my own life so much as the state of the nation). The protesters themselves had a fair amount of infighting, some of them seemed unstable (these ones were often the ones with guns). Overall I found the CHOP area pleasant to be around, however the fact that CHOP armed guards killed more black teens in that ~2 week period than SPD in the past 6 months made me question if it was possible to logically consistently support both CHOP and BLM -- it's concerning there hasn't been more coverage of the disconnect there.
- Thorentis 6y ago
  > however the fact that CHOP armed guards killed more black teens in that ~2 week period than SPD in the past 6 months made me question if it was possible to logically consistently support both CHOP and BLM Being able to hold conflicting beliefs simultaneously is the hallmark of a failed political ideology.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    What exactly led you to believe that the anarcholeftists who set up CHOP and the racial justice folks who started Black Lives Matter seven years earlier subscribe to the same "political ideology"? This is like arguing that technolibertarian atheists and born again evangelicals can't agree on God, therefore conservatism is a failed ideology. For the record: put me in the "police are needed to deter obvious crime and violence" camp AND the "we do WAY too much policing of things other than immediate criminal behavior" group. How's that for failed?
    - 6y ago

bpodgursky 6y ago

This is a bit dated: - It misses the part where the CHAZ "security" murdered a black teenager, and tried to kill another: https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/06/night-of-gunfire-at-capitol-hill-protest-zone-sends-at-least-two-to-hospital/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/06/night-of-gunfire-... (topical to the article, though) - The camp is gone, swept up by the SPD re-occupying the precinct. Wrapped up a couple weeks ago. If you want on-the-ground reports from people in the neighborhood (not really the camp itself), there are a LOT of threads about the CHAZ/CHOP on reddit: https://reddit.com/r/seattle https://reddit.com/r/seattle. Lot of trolling, lot of flaming, but also a lot of people who live on cap hill who talk about their experience living next to it.

lipstone 6y ago
They did mention his death, they just didn't mention it was CHOP security that murdered him, or the video evidence of the execution ("Oh you're still alive?" followed by a gunshot), or the fact that he was black (ironically making CHOP the greatest per-capita rate of police killings of unarmed black people). They did however mention the very incredulous rumor that the murdered teen and his friend were shooting, which there is no evidence for and a lot of evidence against. Honestly, it's weird that an article criticizing the CHOP security debacle would decide to leave out pertinent details that help bolster the critique. As a side note, there is both/r/seattle and /r/seattlewa. Both of them are seeing heavy traffic from out-of-towners right now, but the general divide is /r/seattle is the left-leaning one and /r/seattlewa is the right-leaning one (at least within the context of Seattle).
- bpodgursky 6y ago
  Yeah, I check out both, but didn't feel like wading into that hairball. And to be honest, just picked the one less likely to inspire downvotes and complaints.

gluoneone 6y ago

Two very interesting timeline, kind of encapsulates up the whole incident in general 1.) - Seattle mayor lets capital hill to be seized by protestors - President trump tweets wanting to send troops in - mayor tweets to tell president to butt out - protestors settled in. - few folks were shot - mayor allows “freedom of speech” - a councilwoman encourages protestors to march towards the mayors house. They do. - The mayor dismantles CHOP 2.) - BLM protestors block freeway At 2am, demanding police to be dismantled - car runs over protestors and kills/maims - police chases down and arrest the driver - no real news coverage. Because the driver is black

jedmeyers 6y ago
- police chases down and arrest the driver It does not seem the perpetrator was running from the police, so they did not "chase" him. Accounts show that he was avoiding the protesters and police would him very quickly once he got to safety.
magicalist 6y ago
> BLM protestors block freeway At 2am, demanding police to be dismantled You mean the police blocked the interstate for the protest and the driver went up an off ramp and struck two protestors, killing one. > police chases down and arrest the driver Police showed up after a civilian followed the car, yes. > no real news coverage By which you mean extensive national and international news coverage (seriously, just search for it) but it still hasn't been made clear why the driver was on the highway. Comparing these two "timelines" maybe gives more insight about you than any "incident", because they're not really parallel in spatial, personal, or temporal scope.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > it still hasn't been made clear why the driver was on the highway. This is the most interesting thing about the event. If the driver hadn't been black, even if their true (still unknown) motivations had been identical -- mental illness, for example -- the narrative would have been very different.

cft 6y ago

I recently took two years off and drove from San Francisco to Panama. I spent a lot of time in El Salvador and in Honduras and made some observations. Police in those countries are invisible (non-existent?). You can pretty much do what you want- Honduras just built a new highway system, you can drive as fast as your engine allows. But when you get to know people, the owners of small businesses will tell you that there's another kind of protection. I would call it racket. In San Pedro Sula especially, when you stop paying for protection, your troubles start. Even on the smallest personal level: there are no meters in the center. We parked on a public street, and a 15 years old teenager came and asked 20 Lempiras for parking. My very experienced German companion wanted to ignore him, but then the teen's "supervisors" showed up. They looked like people you don't want to mess with. They politely offered the schedule: 1h is 20, 30min is 10 and left. We opted tor 30min, and the teen timed us to a minute on his watch. In exchange, he "guarded" my California plated car and blocked the upcoming traffic so that I could leave the parking spot (and that he could get another "customer"). I believe some people would actually prefer that system, but so far I liked the American system better.

agrenader 6y ago
How this is different from local taxes? When you stop paying taxes the trouble starts. The problem arises when there are competing "protectors."
- amscanne 6y ago
  To be fair, there’s also some due process when you’re not paying your taxes. In this case, I imagine that the process for dealing with non-payment is rather violent, inconsistent and chaotic.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    I wouldn't imagine that. Violent, yes. Inconsistent, no.
    - gruez 6y ago

Gangbusters 6y ago

In a new post-police era: The rich will have private securty. The middle class will have good guns and good ammo. The poor will have nothing and suffer.

NotSammyHagar 6y ago
Your imagined new era in Seattle is already over, we are back to the police acting normally.
- lipstone 6y ago
  Considering they're likely to defund police budget by 50%, I'd say that's very wrong.
  - NotSammyHagar 6y ago
    I'd support major changes in the police funding and move more to social services, but I'm really skeptical it will happen. The mayor doesn't seem like a rock the boat kind of person.

rayiner 6y ago

Unintentionally libertarian.

ezluckyfree 6y ago
the fundamental problem with trying to be ancom inside an unrelentingly capitalist system

pcstl 6y ago

Who'd guess that advocating for less policing without providing a clear alternative would be terrible for everyone except for those who can pay for private security. Even bad cops are better than no cops.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Aloha 6y ago

I'd like to note, this is from before the Mayor ordered the cops back in to break it up. This quote however is a worthy take away: "As for “Defund the Police,” that slogan doesn’t mean get rid of the police completely. It’s to cut their budget and demilitarize their roles while boosting social services. This is a rational goal, but we can already see one possible unintended outcome if the people of Seattle perceive that traditional police services are declining. Those with money will just hire their own “high threat private protection services.” They’re already doing it. There’s a ton of work to be done reforming the police. But going back to the Pinkerton’s era has got to be one of worst ways to reduce inequality in a city already riven by it."

_bxg1 6y ago
It's hard not to think there's also a "we'll take our ball and go home" attitude going on here. People call to reign in the police, so instead of learning to de-escalate the situation they throw their hands up, stop policing an area altogether, and say "see what happens when we don't get to do things our way?"