4 ms·

Can someone point me to the spot in the article where they actually allege that Tesla has resold a lemon buyback on which goodwill repairs were done? There's a

Can someone point me to the spot in the article where they actually allege that Tesla has resold a lemon buyback on which goodwill repairs were done? There's a ton of text here, but the actual allegation seems to be completely unsubstantiated.

notRobot 6y ago
Did you read the article in its entirety? > "Tesla provides express warranties. Under state lemon laws and the federal Magnuson-Moss Act and other provisions of state and federal laws, they are required to ensure that they comply with the warranties, or provide a refund. It appears they are attempting to evade state lemon laws by claiming their so-called 'goodwill' repairs don't count toward the criteria for buying back lemons. In addition, Tesla has been requiring lemon owners to sign onerous settlement agreements that silence them and make it easier for Tesla to engage in lemon laundering: the illegal resale of defective lemon vehicles, without branding the titles or taking other steps to protect consumers."
- Supermancho 6y ago
  > It appears they are attempting to evade state lemon laws "Appears" how? Where is the substantiation? I came away wit the same concern. I can see the "onerous" terminology in the settlement agreements, which is standard lawyer CYA in these kinds of disputes.
  - hwillis 6y ago
    from the article: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ct284e/tesla_just_listed_my_buyback_model_3_for_33k/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ct284e/tesla_j... The article also noted a former employee is involved in a lawsuit accusing Tesla of reselling lemons.
    - newacct583 6y ago
      But... that link clearly says it was not a lemon buyback! It's not illegal to voluntarily buy a car back and then resell it. Lemon laws are a very specific thing, that effectively force a manufacturer to buy the product back. If it wasn't invoked, then it doesn't apply.
      - gthtjtkt 6y ago
        Yeah, and I didn't steal that guy's car, I just borrowed it indefinitely without his permission. It's a totally different thing, officer!
        extropy 6y ago
        While shady, it's not illegal. Assuming the law said the car is lemon after x repair attempts and Tesla bought it back after x-1 so that lemon law would not apply and they could still resell it.
      - hwillis 6y ago
        Lemon laws are not a very specific thing, they are wildly different between states. Not all lemon laws require disclosure, but some states require disclosure even if a lemon claim isn't actually filed but the car meets the criteria: https://www.lemberglaw.com/lemon-law/rights/lemon-laundering/ https://www.lemberglaw.com/lemon-law/rights/lemon-laundering...
        newacct583 6y ago
        And I ask again, what exactly is Tesla accused of doing that violates lemon laws. As I see it, we have two facts: 1. Tesla sometimes does repairs via "goodwill" accounting instead of standard warrantee service. On it's face, this sounds like a good thing. 2. Tesla bought some guys car, then resold it. Again, that's a good thing in isolation. And the suggestion is that they did the goodwill thing so that they could scam the new owner of the car by evading lemon law disclosure. Well, OK. Did they? Show us the evidence. If there's no actual car that got sold where you can document these repairs and show they were unresolved... I just don't think there's much of a case here. The only way this makes sense is if you start out a priori with an assumption that Tesla is trying to scam their customers, then try to find a scenario where they could do it. That works for writing novel plots, it's not much evidence in an actual court.
- cptskippy 6y ago
  Yes but they go on a tangent citing Alec and his wind buffering issue which turned out to be an undisclosed accident on a pre-owned vehicle and not a Lemon or manufacturing defect. The article didn't present any evidence of lemon laundering, just that it was a compelling theory for goodwill repairs while presenting unrelated incidents of unethical behavior by Tesla to establish a narrative that Tesla isn't above such shenanigans.
close04 6y ago
I see some links in the article that indicate this: https://insideevs.com/news/403631/tesla-sells-used-model-3-paint-issues/ https://insideevs.com/news/403631/tesla-sells-used-model-3-p... https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/21/17036426/tesla-lemon-cars-whistleblower-lawsuit https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/21/17036426/tesla-lemon-cars...

notRobot 6y ago

Did you read the article in its entirety? > "Tesla provides express warranties. Under state lemon laws and the federal Magnuson-Moss Act and other provisions of state and federal laws, they are required to ensure that they comply with the warranties, or provide a refund. It appears they are attempting to evade state lemon laws by claiming their so-called 'goodwill' repairs don't count toward the criteria for buying back lemons. In addition, Tesla has been requiring lemon owners to sign onerous settlement agreements that silence them and make it easier for Tesla to engage in lemon laundering: the illegal resale of defective lemon vehicles, without branding the titles or taking other steps to protect consumers."

Supermancho 6y ago
> It appears they are attempting to evade state lemon laws "Appears" how? Where is the substantiation? I came away wit the same concern. I can see the "onerous" terminology in the settlement agreements, which is standard lawyer CYA in these kinds of disputes.
- hwillis 6y ago
  from the article: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ct284e/tesla_just_listed_my_buyback_model_3_for_33k/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ct284e/tesla_j... The article also noted a former employee is involved in a lawsuit accusing Tesla of reselling lemons.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    But... that link clearly says it was not a lemon buyback! It's not illegal to voluntarily buy a car back and then resell it. Lemon laws are a very specific thing, that effectively force a manufacturer to buy the product back. If it wasn't invoked, then it doesn't apply.
    - gthtjtkt 6y ago
      Yeah, and I didn't steal that guy's car, I just borrowed it indefinitely without his permission. It's a totally different thing, officer!
      - extropy 6y ago
        While shady, it's not illegal. Assuming the law said the car is lemon after x repair attempts and Tesla bought it back after x-1 so that lemon law would not apply and they could still resell it.
    - hwillis 6y ago
      Lemon laws are not a very specific thing, they are wildly different between states. Not all lemon laws require disclosure, but some states require disclosure even if a lemon claim isn't actually filed but the car meets the criteria: https://www.lemberglaw.com/lemon-law/rights/lemon-laundering/ https://www.lemberglaw.com/lemon-law/rights/lemon-laundering...
      - newacct583 6y ago
        And I ask again, what exactly is Tesla accused of doing that violates lemon laws. As I see it, we have two facts: 1. Tesla sometimes does repairs via "goodwill" accounting instead of standard warrantee service. On it's face, this sounds like a good thing. 2. Tesla bought some guys car, then resold it. Again, that's a good thing in isolation. And the suggestion is that they did the goodwill thing so that they could scam the new owner of the car by evading lemon law disclosure. Well, OK. Did they? Show us the evidence. If there's no actual car that got sold where you can document these repairs and show they were unresolved... I just don't think there's much of a case here. The only way this makes sense is if you start out a priori with an assumption that Tesla is trying to scam their customers, then try to find a scenario where they could do it. That works for writing novel plots, it's not much evidence in an actual court.
cptskippy 6y ago
Yes but they go on a tangent citing Alec and his wind buffering issue which turned out to be an undisclosed accident on a pre-owned vehicle and not a Lemon or manufacturing defect. The article didn't present any evidence of lemon laundering, just that it was a compelling theory for goodwill repairs while presenting unrelated incidents of unethical behavior by Tesla to establish a narrative that Tesla isn't above such shenanigans.

close04 6y ago

I see some links in the article that indicate this: https://insideevs.com/news/403631/tesla-sells-used-model-3-paint-issues/ https://insideevs.com/news/403631/tesla-sells-used-model-3-p... https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/21/17036426/tesla-lemon-cars-whistleblower-lawsuit https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/21/17036426/tesla-lemon-cars...