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I have seen many people work much longer than 8 hours a day without issue or burnout if it's what they like doing. Hell, I do so as well. Burnout is not simply

I have seen many people work much longer than 8 hours a day without issue or burnout if it's what they like doing. Hell, I do so as well. Burnout is not simply a function of hours worked, it's a function of perceived ROI on those hours. Obviously people shouldn't be working 20 hours a day as that's not sustainable and work product will be low quality, but 8 is not the upper bound for a lot of people. > And if companies allow and encourage staying more hours, it creates an environment where people can’t choose to work sane hours. Yes they can, they just have to accept that they will get compensated and rewarded less than people who generate additional high quality work. That should be fine and is fair; those people working 8 hours are deriving value from other activities. It's not reasonable to say "I demand everyone works 8 hours because I want to work 8 hours and I don't want any ramifications for making that decision".

gjulianm 6y ago
> I have seen many people work much longer than 8 hours a day without issue or burnout if it's what they like doing For how much time? There is a clear association between more working hours and more burnout [1] and health problems [2] that can be delayed for decades. > Yes they can, they just have to accept that they will get compensated and rewarded less than people who generate additional high quality work. Sorry, but in most places this doesn't happen. I'm lucky to be out of those environments, but the expectation tends to be that everybody works those hours or they're out, even if they're producing the same high quality work (also, I highly doubt that more hours equals more high quality work: productivity decreases after a certain point, specially in software, that's why 6-hour work days are being discussed so much). I still remember a friend being glad that he convinced his manager to "only" work 10 hours a day, because he was literally losing hair due to the extra work. This guy liked what he was doing and at the beginning said "it doesn't matter, I'm happy working these hours. > It's not reasonable to say "I demand everyone works 8 hours because I want to work 8 hours and I don't want any ramifications for making that decision". Well, this is the law in most countries in Europe. Overtime is heavily regulated (enforcement is another matter, unfortunately) precisely because business pressure can be disguised as "individual decisions". When a lot of people start working more hours, it puts pressure on people who fulfill their contracted hours, and who might not want or be able to put those extra hours. In the end, it's a balancing act between giving some people the freedom to work the hours they want and helping the company put pressure on others to do more hours than they were contracted for (in other words, changing their work conditions without negotiation) or give others the freedom to do the job they were hired and paid for without pressure to do more than what was negotiated. Me, I prefer to err on the side of caution and choose the action that doesn't harm the health and well-being of the employees. 1: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302591873_The_Associations_Between_Long_Working_Hours_Physical_Inactivity_and_Burnout https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302591873_The_Assoc... 2: https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/24/3/422/477763 https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/24/3/422/477763
jimbokun 6y ago
Some people may want to work more than 8 hours a day, but a separate question is what maximizes personal and corporate productivity. I've seen research suggesting that workers can get increased productivity working over 40 hours a week for several weeks, but after that, productivity actually goes negative relative to a 40 hour week, because more mistakes are being made that will require rework.

gjulianm 6y ago

> I have seen many people work much longer than 8 hours a day without issue or burnout if it's what they like doing For how much time? There is a clear association between more working hours and more burnout [1] and health problems [2] that can be delayed for decades. > Yes they can, they just have to accept that they will get compensated and rewarded less than people who generate additional high quality work. Sorry, but in most places this doesn't happen. I'm lucky to be out of those environments, but the expectation tends to be that everybody works those hours or they're out, even if they're producing the same high quality work (also, I highly doubt that more hours equals more high quality work: productivity decreases after a certain point, specially in software, that's why 6-hour work days are being discussed so much). I still remember a friend being glad that he convinced his manager to "only" work 10 hours a day, because he was literally losing hair due to the extra work. This guy liked what he was doing and at the beginning said "it doesn't matter, I'm happy working these hours. > It's not reasonable to say "I demand everyone works 8 hours because I want to work 8 hours and I don't want any ramifications for making that decision". Well, this is the law in most countries in Europe. Overtime is heavily regulated (enforcement is another matter, unfortunately) precisely because business pressure can be disguised as "individual decisions". When a lot of people start working more hours, it puts pressure on people who fulfill their contracted hours, and who might not want or be able to put those extra hours. In the end, it's a balancing act between giving some people the freedom to work the hours they want and helping the company put pressure on others to do more hours than they were contracted for (in other words, changing their work conditions without negotiation) or give others the freedom to do the job they were hired and paid for without pressure to do more than what was negotiated. Me, I prefer to err on the side of caution and choose the action that doesn't harm the health and well-being of the employees. 1: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302591873_The_Associations_Between_Long_Working_Hours_Physical_Inactivity_and_Burnout https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302591873_The_Assoc... 2: https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/24/3/422/477763 https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/24/3/422/477763

jimbokun 6y ago

Some people may want to work more than 8 hours a day, but a separate question is what maximizes personal and corporate productivity. I've seen research suggesting that workers can get increased productivity working over 40 hours a week for several weeks, but after that, productivity actually goes negative relative to a 40 hour week, because more mistakes are being made that will require rework.