5 ms·

Are you ready to loose the black and red in red black tree? Because that’s skin color right there... Are you willing to rename all your code variables when you

by xgbi 6y ago

Are you ready to loose the black and red in red black tree? Because that’s skin color right there... Are you willing to rename all your code variables when you used « whitelist » or « blacklist »? This has to stop. Slavery was long gone and finished when master/slave began being used in computer science. They were not used as a meaning to reproduce and glorify the past, they are simple words that explain how the protocol works. Would you rather « master » and « servant »? King and serf? Bully and victim? This is to me just as irrelevant as continuing the superstitions about 13 and 666: a reactionnary behavior that people should tame and focus on something more important, like actual code correctness, fuzzing or something actually useful.

TeaDrunk 6y ago
Have we actually asked the demographics these changes are supposed to empower? We definitely have black engineering organizations. What does the National Society of Black Engineers say about this? What does Black In Tech say about this? Before we assume that such things are stupid superstitions or applying race on a term (or choosing not to apply terms in race context) we should listen to the other side of the plate.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  Sounds like more work to me, than just accepting that PR
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    If we follow that line of argument to its conclusion, declining the PR is the least work of all.
- ryanobjc 6y ago
  I find the terminology uncomfortable. I dislike it. Keeping those names is lazy naming, and we can do a hell of a lot better. The words have a ton of emotional imagery tied up, and no need to invoke it just when we are talking about IDE disk protocols. We don't have to rename it all immediately, but let's start with the easy stuff and ripple it thru. How hard can it be? In any case, blocklist, allowlist is way more descriptive than blacklist and whitelist. It describes WHAT the thing does, whereas the black/white relies on a cultural mnemonic that black is bad and white is good. Just name things for what they do, how hard is that?
  - xgbi 6y ago
    I can get behind your first and second paragraph. I understand the idea that we can do better, and there's no bad in doing this.. but the last is just too much. Why not use pastel colors for chess and checkers because colors black and white are so effing bad? Should we review the Yin and Yang color semantics too ? Am I offending people when I print my financial statement on WHITE paper? With BLACK ink? Will there be forbidden words everywhere soon? Should I be able to pronounce the word "slave" in public or will I get stoned for it? Is there going to be a police dedicated to monitor people's use of "disturbing words" that we collectively decided would hurt the sensibility of communities, and started enforcing? Am I going to loose my job if I commit a diff with forbidden words by the Great List Of Acceptable Words That Don't Discriminate Any Minority In The World? Will my commits to the linux kernel be refused if I chose one word badly, regardless of the actual VALUE of my code? Are we going to cleanse the Kernel from words like fuck or shit or arab? Will there be a PG rating when opening github's project pages so that we don't expose our children to these subversive tractations? People are starting to confuse their own sensibilities and the greater good. When people start banning words and ideas, they slowly start communitarism and self-isolating rhetorics. They restric their views by hiding the rest of the things they don't like. This just looks like another puritan American move, and it's spreading like karens around the developer community. This is just like the fake inclusivity where devs are starting to put in their repos what they call "Code of Conduct" where you are now asked to think about the cultural impact of your "Typo FIX" commit over the N communities that would prefer that you call your global variable "allowedList" rather than "whiteList". Oh my.. I don't care. I want my code to be functionally correct, not make BHL happy. Shit, I'm not writing to make a political statement, I'm fixing my SCSI driver implementation.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
edoceo 6y ago
Well, $white_list and $black_list was easy for me to change to $pass_list and $fail_list. Saves one char and is more explicit about the code intent. I've never like colour based names anyway too ambiguous.
- ryanobjc 6y ago
  Also it depends on the cultural understanding that white is good and black is bad. Ditto white-hat hacker vs black-hat hackers. If you really want to build something for all times, don't load it up with cultural baggage that will go obsolete.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  I would have guessed that fail_list is a list of items that have failed. That's the problem with replacing an actual word with a new term. You get something that would be equivalent, but it doesn't have that innate understanding. It's not a big sacrifice, but it's less immediately clear.
TristanDaCunha 6y ago
> Slavery was long gone and finished when master/slave began being used in computer science. I don't disagree with your conclusion, but this is such an America-centric statement. Slavery is alive and well today. There are more slaves now than at any past time.
throwlogon 6y ago
Slavery wasn't and still isn't that long gone. The reductio ad absurdum where any mention of a color is considered harmful is based in the assumption that the issue is with mentioning color. It might be useful to distinguish when a color is just a color (e.g. red/black trees), and when a metaphor is borrowed from an actual crime against humanity (e.g. master/slave).
DonHopkins 6y ago
>"This has to stop. Slavery was long gone and finished [bla bla bla]..." Funny how you're much more hysterical about how renaming things has to stop, than you are concerned about how slavery has to stop, when you directly deny the harsh objective reality that there are actually many more slaves today than ever before in history. Get your priorities right. Renaming things isn't taking away your freedom or cramping your lifestyle. https://www.abc.net.au/radio/perth/programs/focus/modern-slavery/9944644 https://www.abc.net.au/radio/perth/programs/focus/modern-sla... >There are more slaves in the world today than ever before in human history. Its estimated that there are 40.3 million slaves throughout the world today, more than at any other time in human history. https://bis.lexisnexis.co.uk/blog/categories/governance-risk-and-compliance/there-are-more-slaves-today-than-ever-before https://bis.lexisnexis.co.uk/blog/categories/governance-risk... >There are more slaves today than EVER before in the history of the world. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/25/modern-slavery-trafficking-persons-one-in-200 https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/25/modern-slavery-... >One in 200 people is a slave. Why? Slavery affects more than 40 million people worldwide – more than at any other time in history.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  > hysterical That's not called for. As for the rest, it seems to me that it's slavery based on race that is the biggest motivator to changing the term. Obviously all slavery is a horrible problem, but other kinds of slavery are much less relevant to the terminology debate.
  - ryanobjc 6y ago
    It seemed to be a totally factual description of the poster. Wrapping your comment up in a "that's not called for" false-call for civility while ignoring the reality on the ground that our friends, our fellow citizens may be affected by this kind of ongoing language, yet people REFUSE to help, because of... why? Leon, why did you flip the tortoise on its back? You aren't helping it, why is that?
    - Chris2048 6y ago
goldforever 6y ago
Preach!

by xgbi 6y ago

TeaDrunk 6y ago

Have we actually asked the demographics these changes are supposed to empower? We definitely have black engineering organizations. What does the National Society of Black Engineers say about this? What does Black In Tech say about this? Before we assume that such things are stupid superstitions or applying race on a term (or choosing not to apply terms in race context) we should listen to the other side of the plate.

cutemonster 6y ago
Sounds like more work to me, than just accepting that PR
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  If we follow that line of argument to its conclusion, declining the PR is the least work of all.
ryanobjc 6y ago
I find the terminology uncomfortable. I dislike it. Keeping those names is lazy naming, and we can do a hell of a lot better. The words have a ton of emotional imagery tied up, and no need to invoke it just when we are talking about IDE disk protocols. We don't have to rename it all immediately, but let's start with the easy stuff and ripple it thru. How hard can it be? In any case, blocklist, allowlist is way more descriptive than blacklist and whitelist. It describes WHAT the thing does, whereas the black/white relies on a cultural mnemonic that black is bad and white is good. Just name things for what they do, how hard is that?
- xgbi 6y ago
  I can get behind your first and second paragraph. I understand the idea that we can do better, and there's no bad in doing this.. but the last is just too much. Why not use pastel colors for chess and checkers because colors black and white are so effing bad? Should we review the Yin and Yang color semantics too ? Am I offending people when I print my financial statement on WHITE paper? With BLACK ink? Will there be forbidden words everywhere soon? Should I be able to pronounce the word "slave" in public or will I get stoned for it? Is there going to be a police dedicated to monitor people's use of "disturbing words" that we collectively decided would hurt the sensibility of communities, and started enforcing? Am I going to loose my job if I commit a diff with forbidden words by the Great List Of Acceptable Words That Don't Discriminate Any Minority In The World? Will my commits to the linux kernel be refused if I chose one word badly, regardless of the actual VALUE of my code? Are we going to cleanse the Kernel from words like fuck or shit or arab? Will there be a PG rating when opening github's project pages so that we don't expose our children to these subversive tractations? People are starting to confuse their own sensibilities and the greater good. When people start banning words and ideas, they slowly start communitarism and self-isolating rhetorics. They restric their views by hiding the rest of the things they don't like. This just looks like another puritan American move, and it's spreading like karens around the developer community. This is just like the fake inclusivity where devs are starting to put in their repos what they call "Code of Conduct" where you are now asked to think about the cultural impact of your "Typo FIX" commit over the N communities that would prefer that you call your global variable "allowedList" rather than "whiteList". Oh my.. I don't care. I want my code to be functionally correct, not make BHL happy. Shit, I'm not writing to make a political statement, I'm fixing my SCSI driver implementation.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

edoceo 6y ago

Well, $white_list and $black_list was easy for me to change to $pass_list and $fail_list. Saves one char and is more explicit about the code intent. I've never like colour based names anyway too ambiguous.

ryanobjc 6y ago
Also it depends on the cultural understanding that white is good and black is bad. Ditto white-hat hacker vs black-hat hackers. If you really want to build something for all times, don't load it up with cultural baggage that will go obsolete.
Dylan16807 6y ago
I would have guessed that fail_list is a list of items that have failed. That's the problem with replacing an actual word with a new term. You get something that would be equivalent, but it doesn't have that innate understanding. It's not a big sacrifice, but it's less immediately clear.

TristanDaCunha 6y ago

> Slavery was long gone and finished when master/slave began being used in computer science. I don't disagree with your conclusion, but this is such an America-centric statement. Slavery is alive and well today. There are more slaves now than at any past time.

throwlogon 6y ago

Slavery wasn't and still isn't that long gone. The reductio ad absurdum where any mention of a color is considered harmful is based in the assumption that the issue is with mentioning color. It might be useful to distinguish when a color is just a color (e.g. red/black trees), and when a metaphor is borrowed from an actual crime against humanity (e.g. master/slave).

DonHopkins 6y ago

>"This has to stop. Slavery was long gone and finished [bla bla bla]..." Funny how you're much more hysterical about how renaming things has to stop, than you are concerned about how slavery has to stop, when you directly deny the harsh objective reality that there are actually many more slaves today than ever before in history. Get your priorities right. Renaming things isn't taking away your freedom or cramping your lifestyle. https://www.abc.net.au/radio/perth/programs/focus/modern-slavery/9944644 https://www.abc.net.au/radio/perth/programs/focus/modern-sla... >There are more slaves in the world today than ever before in human history. Its estimated that there are 40.3 million slaves throughout the world today, more than at any other time in human history. https://bis.lexisnexis.co.uk/blog/categories/governance-risk-and-compliance/there-are-more-slaves-today-than-ever-before https://bis.lexisnexis.co.uk/blog/categories/governance-risk... >There are more slaves today than EVER before in the history of the world. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/25/modern-slavery-trafficking-persons-one-in-200 https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/25/modern-slavery-... >One in 200 people is a slave. Why? Slavery affects more than 40 million people worldwide – more than at any other time in history.

Dylan16807 6y ago
> hysterical That's not called for. As for the rest, it seems to me that it's slavery based on race that is the biggest motivator to changing the term. Obviously all slavery is a horrible problem, but other kinds of slavery are much less relevant to the terminology debate.
- ryanobjc 6y ago
  It seemed to be a totally factual description of the poster. Wrapping your comment up in a "that's not called for" false-call for civility while ignoring the reality on the ground that our friends, our fellow citizens may be affected by this kind of ongoing language, yet people REFUSE to help, because of... why? Leon, why did you flip the tortoise on its back? You aren't helping it, why is that?
  - Chris2048 6y ago

goldforever 6y ago

Preach!