4 ms·

I find the Orwellian nature of these changes uncomfortable. You really ought to look into a bit more history than what you got taught in school as slavery has

by collyw 6y ago

I find the Orwellian nature of these changes uncomfortable. You really ought to look into a bit more history than what you got taught in school as slavery has gone on since as far as civilization and is in no way unique to the US. Slavery still goes on today and changing the terminology has done nothing to help that in any way. (Is your skin colour relevant to your answer in any way? I have no idea why you included that)

goto11 6y ago
So you acknowledge that the slave/master terminology carries associations to human slavery. You just think is would be an Orwellian erasure of history to disconnect OS terminology from the historical reality?
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  The problem is that the word can have derogatory implications, not that it represents a bad thing to do with humans. If slavery didn't have the sort of implications it does in the US, it might be no worse than 'kill' or 'destroy'. You shouldn't do those to humans either, but seeing the word doesn't leave an unpleasant residue.
- jayd16 6y ago
  Removing words with complex history or negative meaning is the definition of Newspeak. >Newspeak contains no negative terms. For example, the only way to express the meaning of “bad” is through the word “ungood.”
majewsky 6y ago
Making the conscious choice to continue using these words is also Orwellian. In this case, there is no neutral language.
neckardt 6y ago
> Slavery still goes on today and changing the terminology has done nothing to help that in any way. I'm aware slavery exists in other contexts and continues. In this case, I was trying to point out the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "slave". I imagine other US born devs might think similarly. I doubt this would do anything to solve slavery, but it would make me more comfortable. > Is your skin colour relevant to your answer in any way? I have no idea why you included that Since this is a racially charged topic, I assume the opinion of someone of color would hold more weight. I wanted to make my background clear so you wouldn't be guessing.
- collyw 6y ago
  > I assume the opinion of someone of color would hold more weight. So you expect me to treat you differently based on revealing your skin colour? My personal opinion is that such an attitude will do far more harm to racial relations than the use of master / slave in technical documentation. We should be looking to make skin colour as irrelevant as eye colour. You don't get there by bringing up skin colour at every opportunity.
- yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
  > I assume the opinion of someone of color would hold more weight This is a harmful idea. Do you think an anti-vaxxer's opinion should hold more weight because she's a mother?
jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
I know this is tilting at windmills but I am extremely tired of seeing this "every culture had slavery" dismissal. The atlantic slave trade had unique characteristics that make it quite distinct from what's happened during Rome or the Czars. It also was only a couple generations ago. The legacy of slavery remains a very real force across all the prior slave colonies in the Americas. There's always been murderers, but we don't use that as a thought ending cliche to dismiss the idea that we should try to prevent murders. We don't ignore the unique horrors of someone like Jeffrey Dahmer just because other murders existed. Symbols and terminology matter. No changing the terms won't by itself eliminate ongoing slavery in the world. But it does shift the window of how people view things. In my generation, the purge of the f word and using gay as a pejorative was only a few years ahead of legal acceptance of gay marriage. Changing the terms won't solve the problem, but it is moving in the right direction.
jayd16 6y ago
Yes, I think Orwellian is why I don't like this trend although I have no problem catering to requests I have no stake in. Removing uncomfortable and provocative language seems like a mistake but I understand that its my privilege to hold this position. I can't think of a word that makes me uncomfortable enough to ask for its removal.

by collyw 6y ago

goto11 6y ago

So you acknowledge that the slave/master terminology carries associations to human slavery. You just think is would be an Orwellian erasure of history to disconnect OS terminology from the historical reality?

Dylan16807 6y ago
The problem is that the word can have derogatory implications, not that it represents a bad thing to do with humans. If slavery didn't have the sort of implications it does in the US, it might be no worse than 'kill' or 'destroy'. You shouldn't do those to humans either, but seeing the word doesn't leave an unpleasant residue.
jayd16 6y ago
Removing words with complex history or negative meaning is the definition of Newspeak. >Newspeak contains no negative terms. For example, the only way to express the meaning of “bad” is through the word “ungood.”

majewsky 6y ago

Making the conscious choice to continue using these words is also Orwellian. In this case, there is no neutral language.

neckardt 6y ago

> Slavery still goes on today and changing the terminology has done nothing to help that in any way. I'm aware slavery exists in other contexts and continues. In this case, I was trying to point out the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "slave". I imagine other US born devs might think similarly. I doubt this would do anything to solve slavery, but it would make me more comfortable. > Is your skin colour relevant to your answer in any way? I have no idea why you included that Since this is a racially charged topic, I assume the opinion of someone of color would hold more weight. I wanted to make my background clear so you wouldn't be guessing.

collyw 6y ago
> I assume the opinion of someone of color would hold more weight. So you expect me to treat you differently based on revealing your skin colour? My personal opinion is that such an attitude will do far more harm to racial relations than the use of master / slave in technical documentation. We should be looking to make skin colour as irrelevant as eye colour. You don't get there by bringing up skin colour at every opportunity.
yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
> I assume the opinion of someone of color would hold more weight This is a harmful idea. Do you think an anti-vaxxer's opinion should hold more weight because she's a mother?

jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago

I know this is tilting at windmills but I am extremely tired of seeing this "every culture had slavery" dismissal. The atlantic slave trade had unique characteristics that make it quite distinct from what's happened during Rome or the Czars. It also was only a couple generations ago. The legacy of slavery remains a very real force across all the prior slave colonies in the Americas. There's always been murderers, but we don't use that as a thought ending cliche to dismiss the idea that we should try to prevent murders. We don't ignore the unique horrors of someone like Jeffrey Dahmer just because other murders existed. Symbols and terminology matter. No changing the terms won't by itself eliminate ongoing slavery in the world. But it does shift the window of how people view things. In my generation, the purge of the f word and using gay as a pejorative was only a few years ahead of legal acceptance of gay marriage. Changing the terms won't solve the problem, but it is moving in the right direction.

jayd16 6y ago

Yes, I think Orwellian is why I don't like this trend although I have no problem catering to requests I have no stake in. Removing uncomfortable and provocative language seems like a mistake but I understand that its my privilege to hold this position. I can't think of a word that makes me uncomfortable enough to ask for its removal.