6 ms·

Black people: can we stop the police from killing us please? White people: we will change the terminology in the Linux kernel, you are welcome.

microcolonel 6y ago
Problem is, the black people who call this out are "not the right black people" and the white people who call it out often lose their jobs. Do society a favour and get this cancer out of your HR departments, and start saying no while you still can; because if you wait long enough, all of the activism will be fake, because it's cheaper and you're not allowed to notice the difference.
- f6v 6y ago
  Why though? It makes people doing it feel better and requires little effort. Anything else other than virtue signaling is hard and expensive.
  - torgian 6y ago
    It's virtue signaling. It does nothing, and 99% of the people aren't going to see these terms and racially charged.
    - dannypgh 6y ago
      I appreciate knowing my colleagues have virtues. How is that doing nothing?
      - yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
        Do you think moral posturing as a means to gaining political and/or social capital when nothing is at stake is of any real value? Because that’s what virtue signalling is, and that’s what most people fighting the good fight in these comments are doing.
        dannypgh 6y ago
        I don't appreciate my psychological safety being referred to as "nothing... at stake... of any real value." I know that's probably not what you intended, but I've reread it several times and that's how I'm interpreting it each time. I think this disconnect between people -- a modicum of safety in a world that doesn't value our lives is seen as huge and worthwhile by some, but trivial and unimportant by others.
        yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
        I appreciate you trying to clarify. Whether or not that's a correct interpretation of what I wrote depends on why you feel your "psychological safety" is at risk. If you are a black person and the common use of the word "blacklist" is an affront to your psychological safety, then I would find that curious and I would ask why it is you feel that way. From what other black people in this thread have written, that doesn't appear to be the common case. Amusingly, the people fighting the good fight in the comments here (at least, the last time I checked) seem to have flatly ignored the people who essentially say "I am black. Squabbling about words in Linux does nothing in the fight against slavery. Why won't white people listen to us." If that isn't your situation and you are being offended on behalf of other people, then I think you're standing on shaky moral ground. To clarify, when I said "nothing… at stake… of any real value", I was referring to the common modern trend of slacktivism.
        dannypgh 6y ago
        I am Black. I'm not ignoring the other Black people posting, I'm just letting the audience know they don't speak for all of us. We are not a monolith. I don't particularly care about blacklist/whitelist (as there's a clearer connection to light) but a lot of the defenses against even considering that change sound racist as fuck to me -- there's lots of people who explicitly argue the status quo is OK and that it couldn't be worth any changes here. Master/slave, however, does bother me. It's led to one too many conversations where people need to, or so, say things like "the slave isn't keeping up with the master" or "the master should detect that and kill the slave" or "we should add more slaves" and those words are grating to me. I don't want to say them, and if a coworker is saying them sometimes I'm not sure if they're enjoying getting to use those words a little too much. I also want to add, none of this is as important to me as meaningful reparations for slavery and institutionalized racism. But the fact that other things are more important doesn't mean this isn't important. If I meet someone who is in a position to significantly advance reparations or rename these tech terms, I'll be talking with them about the former, not the latter. But most people are not in a position to move the needle on both of these issues.
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    > "It makes people doing it feel better and requires little effort." Security theater often makes people feel better and requires little effort. Should we embrace security theater instead of improving security?
- Chris2048 6y ago
  The "right black people" are usually white progressives speaking on their behalf: https://quillette.com/2018/05/14/the-racism-treadmill/ https://quillette.com/2018/05/14/the-racism-treadmill/
leothekim 6y ago
Contrived sanctimony like this will not prevent police from killing black people either.
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  Hey, you know what would help prevent police from killing black people? Studying what specific practices, programs and policies lead to police not killing so many people — followed by targeted policy advocacy. This will never happen. Critical race theory and displays of anger are quite in vogue in the academy; actually engaging with police departments requires patience and working with police departments (which your colleagues will find icky). Meanwhile the politicians just want to take advantage of general outrage for their own benefit and that of their party. We'll get a little reform out of the current protests as they stand, but not nearly enough. This comment will not prevent police from killing black people, but there's an outside shot it will help one or two people in the world actually treat the problem like they actually want to solve it, so, I'll chance it.
  - mindslight 6y ago
    > actually engaging with police departments requires patience and working with police departments Sure, for the longer term profiling, excessive roughness, etc. But prosecuting a murderer for murdering is quite straightforward. It just takes a non-corrupt public prosecutor. For example, I'd love to see a candidate for Commonwealth's Attorney of Jefferson County running on a platform of enforcing the law by prosecuting Breonna Taylor's killers. 2025 is some years away, but I don't think the statute of limitations will have expired.
munchbunny 6y ago
The best framing I’ve heard for this is that it’s missing the forest for the trees. Better said in someone else’s words than my own: https://mobile.twitter.com/btanderson72/status/1279507428128718848 https://mobile.twitter.com/btanderson72/status/1279507428128...
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  But the problem with white/black isn't the metaphor, it's that we're using those terms for skin colors in a way that is blatantly wrong. If we're going to change the way we speak, is it really better to imply those words meant race all along? Changing the part that was correct instead of the part that was incorrect?
  - munchbunny 6y ago
    If we're going to change the way we speak, is it really better to imply those words meant race all along? It’s not about what the word meant all along. “Negro” wasn’t considered a derogatory term for black people for the majority of its history as a word, but today, especially in English, we avoid it because of the legacy it picked up. You don’t have to admit the word was always racist to believe that we should use some other words in today’s context.
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      If the words had changed meaning, sure. But blacklist/whitelist are not words that have become racist. They're the same as they always were.
      - quonn 6y ago
        I have used these terms both in English and in my native language for decades and it never crossed my mind that there could be any relation to skin colors. But now they are associated with this so I would argue it‘s more racist now since we‘ve connected something negative (a blacklist) in our minds with the idea of being black. I think this will do harm in two ways: a) harm because of the explicit association as just described b) harm because many people (possible supporters) will reject these kind of things as unreasonable Now, I think the policy itself is not a big thing. Can be done. But it should have included a statement that the underlying idea is perhaps a hit silly and this is done to avoid this distraction.
ryandrake 6y ago
I keep thinking that this has to be the perfect topic for a South Park episode. It has all the right elements: changing social norms, ultra-passionate groups on both sides, a silent majority who are indifferent, and ultimately the issue and stakes are small potatoes compared to what else is going on in the world. The episode pretty much writes itself!

microcolonel 6y ago

Problem is, the black people who call this out are "not the right black people" and the white people who call it out often lose their jobs. Do society a favour and get this cancer out of your HR departments, and start saying no while you still can; because if you wait long enough, all of the activism will be fake, because it's cheaper and you're not allowed to notice the difference.

f6v 6y ago
Why though? It makes people doing it feel better and requires little effort. Anything else other than virtue signaling is hard and expensive.
- torgian 6y ago
  It's virtue signaling. It does nothing, and 99% of the people aren't going to see these terms and racially charged.
  - dannypgh 6y ago
    I appreciate knowing my colleagues have virtues. How is that doing nothing?
    - yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
      Do you think moral posturing as a means to gaining political and/or social capital when nothing is at stake is of any real value? Because that’s what virtue signalling is, and that’s what most people fighting the good fight in these comments are doing.
      - dannypgh 6y ago
        I don't appreciate my psychological safety being referred to as "nothing... at stake... of any real value." I know that's probably not what you intended, but I've reread it several times and that's how I'm interpreting it each time. I think this disconnect between people -- a modicum of safety in a world that doesn't value our lives is seen as huge and worthwhile by some, but trivial and unimportant by others.
        yakshaving_jgt 6y ago
        I appreciate you trying to clarify. Whether or not that's a correct interpretation of what I wrote depends on why you feel your "psychological safety" is at risk. If you are a black person and the common use of the word "blacklist" is an affront to your psychological safety, then I would find that curious and I would ask why it is you feel that way. From what other black people in this thread have written, that doesn't appear to be the common case. Amusingly, the people fighting the good fight in the comments here (at least, the last time I checked) seem to have flatly ignored the people who essentially say "I am black. Squabbling about words in Linux does nothing in the fight against slavery. Why won't white people listen to us." If that isn't your situation and you are being offended on behalf of other people, then I think you're standing on shaky moral ground. To clarify, when I said "nothing… at stake… of any real value", I was referring to the common modern trend of slacktivism.
        dannypgh 6y ago
        I am Black. I'm not ignoring the other Black people posting, I'm just letting the audience know they don't speak for all of us. We are not a monolith. I don't particularly care about blacklist/whitelist (as there's a clearer connection to light) but a lot of the defenses against even considering that change sound racist as fuck to me -- there's lots of people who explicitly argue the status quo is OK and that it couldn't be worth any changes here. Master/slave, however, does bother me. It's led to one too many conversations where people need to, or so, say things like "the slave isn't keeping up with the master" or "the master should detect that and kill the slave" or "we should add more slaves" and those words are grating to me. I don't want to say them, and if a coworker is saying them sometimes I'm not sure if they're enjoying getting to use those words a little too much. I also want to add, none of this is as important to me as meaningful reparations for slavery and institutionalized racism. But the fact that other things are more important doesn't mean this isn't important. If I meet someone who is in a position to significantly advance reparations or rename these tech terms, I'll be talking with them about the former, not the latter. But most people are not in a position to move the needle on both of these issues.
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  > "It makes people doing it feel better and requires little effort." Security theater often makes people feel better and requires little effort. Should we embrace security theater instead of improving security?
Chris2048 6y ago
The "right black people" are usually white progressives speaking on their behalf: https://quillette.com/2018/05/14/the-racism-treadmill/ https://quillette.com/2018/05/14/the-racism-treadmill/

leothekim 6y ago

Contrived sanctimony like this will not prevent police from killing black people either.

fennecfoxen 6y ago
Hey, you know what would help prevent police from killing black people? Studying what specific practices, programs and policies lead to police not killing so many people — followed by targeted policy advocacy. This will never happen. Critical race theory and displays of anger are quite in vogue in the academy; actually engaging with police departments requires patience and working with police departments (which your colleagues will find icky). Meanwhile the politicians just want to take advantage of general outrage for their own benefit and that of their party. We'll get a little reform out of the current protests as they stand, but not nearly enough. This comment will not prevent police from killing black people, but there's an outside shot it will help one or two people in the world actually treat the problem like they actually want to solve it, so, I'll chance it.
- mindslight 6y ago
  > actually engaging with police departments requires patience and working with police departments Sure, for the longer term profiling, excessive roughness, etc. But prosecuting a murderer for murdering is quite straightforward. It just takes a non-corrupt public prosecutor. For example, I'd love to see a candidate for Commonwealth's Attorney of Jefferson County running on a platform of enforcing the law by prosecuting Breonna Taylor's killers. 2025 is some years away, but I don't think the statute of limitations will have expired.

munchbunny 6y ago

The best framing I’ve heard for this is that it’s missing the forest for the trees. Better said in someone else’s words than my own: https://mobile.twitter.com/btanderson72/status/1279507428128718848 https://mobile.twitter.com/btanderson72/status/1279507428128...

Dylan16807 6y ago
But the problem with white/black isn't the metaphor, it's that we're using those terms for skin colors in a way that is blatantly wrong. If we're going to change the way we speak, is it really better to imply those words meant race all along? Changing the part that was correct instead of the part that was incorrect?
- munchbunny 6y ago
  If we're going to change the way we speak, is it really better to imply those words meant race all along? It’s not about what the word meant all along. “Negro” wasn’t considered a derogatory term for black people for the majority of its history as a word, but today, especially in English, we avoid it because of the legacy it picked up. You don’t have to admit the word was always racist to believe that we should use some other words in today’s context.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    If the words had changed meaning, sure. But blacklist/whitelist are not words that have become racist. They're the same as they always were.
    - quonn 6y ago
      I have used these terms both in English and in my native language for decades and it never crossed my mind that there could be any relation to skin colors. But now they are associated with this so I would argue it‘s more racist now since we‘ve connected something negative (a blacklist) in our minds with the idea of being black. I think this will do harm in two ways: a) harm because of the explicit association as just described b) harm because many people (possible supporters) will reject these kind of things as unreasonable Now, I think the policy itself is not a big thing. Can be done. But it should have included a statement that the underlying idea is perhaps a hit silly and this is done to avoid this distraction.

ryandrake 6y ago

I keep thinking that this has to be the perfect topic for a South Park episode. It has all the right elements: changing social norms, ultra-passionate groups on both sides, a silent majority who are indifferent, and ultimately the issue and stakes are small potatoes compared to what else is going on in the world. The episode pretty much writes itself!