6 ms·

Can anyone find me someone who actually gets offended by this? (And doesn't write a column for the Guardian or make money out of claiming offence everywhere).

by collyw 6y ago

neckardt 6y ago
White male here: I always found the terminology of master/slave uncomfortable. I never really encountered the word slave outside of american history classes, so in my head it does remind me of slavery in the US. I would frequently avoid using the word "slave" in technical discussions. I'm happy with this change.
- FeepingCreature 6y ago
  master in the git sense is not master/slave.
  - acdha 6y ago
    It’s not clear that this is true: if were around when Git started, it was influenced heavily by BitKeeper and that did use master/slave: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/...
    - _-david-_ 6y ago
      There are no slave branches in Git though.
      - acdha 6y ago
        Yes, but the point is that the history isn’t as clear cut as it might seem. I generally prefer other branch names anyway which tell how you use them - e.g. does “master” mean development actually happens there, where code is integrated for testing, the ready-to-release code (which is what the image/audio usage of master would imply), etc. Using terms like “develop”, “integration”, “release”, etc. make your project conventions more apparent.
    - JimDabell 6y ago
      It’s totally clear. Here is the person who chose the term "master" explaining that he chose it in relation to the term "master recording": > "master" as in e.g. "master recording". Perhaps you could say the original, but viewed from the production process perspective. — https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272280760280637441 https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272280760280637441 The idea that it is related to master/slave was guesswork based on the relation between Git and BitKeeper. But Git doesn’t have slaves and the guess was wrong.
      - acdha 6y ago
        … and if you read further in that same thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272958618124595201 https://mobile.twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272958618124595201 https://mobile.twitter.com/localheinz/status/1273302245002686464 https://mobile.twitter.com/localheinz/status/127330224500268... Again, I wouldn’t blame anyone for following use which is common in the field. What disappoints me is that some people are so strongly opposed to using more accurate terms when they’re not even being asked to do the small amount of work. Maybe this is innocent, maybe it’s not, we could fix it now and never have to spend time on this conversation again.
        JimDabell 6y ago
        Thanks for bringing that to my attention, I find it easy to miss things in Twitter threads. > What disappoints me is that some people are so strongly opposed to using more accurate terms when they’re not even being asked to do the small amount of work. > we could fix it now and never have to spend time on this conversation again. I really hate this perception that changing master to main is easy. There’s 15 years of documentation out there that uses master. If it’s anything like other legacy documentation, it’ll take another ten years for that documentation to fall out of use. In the meantime, there’s tonnes of young, inexperienced developers who will get stuck on this. Haven’t you ever seen a junior developer panic, think they are screwing up, and question their self-worth because they feel like they can’t even follow simple step-by-step instructions, when the problem is the documentation they are following is wrong? The right way of doing this would be to coördinate via the main Git project and have a plan for what to do with all the existing documentation out there. As it stands, people unilaterally charged forward with it thoughtlessly, and are going to cause a great deal of practical pain for inexperienced developers, many of whom will be black. You really think triggering imposter syndrome in them is harmless?
  - drusepth 6y ago
    I've always been under the impression that it's master as in "master copy".
    - pravus 6y ago
      Audio engineering uses the term "master" for the source of highest fidelity "copy"ing...
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  Linux isn't a US-specific OS, though. Obviously the history of slavery isn't exactly a happy topic regardless of nationality, but it may not necessarily have the racial tinge to it in other cultures.
  - goto11 6y ago
    Slave/master are English words though, so what matters is their meaning and connotations in the English language.
    - TulliusCicero 6y ago
      ...okay? The US doesn't own the English language, either. And the word "slave" in English refers to slavery throughout history and in various cultures, anyway, including slavery that still exists today, "wage slavery", etc.
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      English has been host to a lot of slavery of many kinds of people. The racial implications are much more of a US thing.
- loceng 6y ago
  That discomfort has to do with your own narrow associations with the word, unable to separate the contexts and therefore triggering the human slavery version of master/slave in your mind and the associated emotions. Master and slave in this context has nothing to do with human slavery.
  - neckardt 6y ago
    > That discomfort has to do with your own narrow associations with the word, unable to separate the contexts and therefore triggering the human slavery version of master/slave in your mind and the associated emotions. I agree with all of this. I'm sure if I were to work with master/slave systems for a while the connotation to me would change from the historical one to the technical. However even then, if I communicate with someone outside of technical people, it will carry the slavery connotation to them. A while ago I had a similar issue when trying to explain male and female connectors to a friend. When she heard me use the terminology she thought I was joking, and I had to show her the wikipedia article and connectors on amazon. In that case it was harmless, but I could imagine the same scenario happening when trying to explain master/slave terminology to a colored person, and it coming off as an offensive joke.
    - loceng 6y ago
      No, you're coddling them then - if you reference master-slave to someone outside of technical people then the context of the conversation will be technology, coddling them and treating them as if they're fragile and can't learn of a new context; why would you be talking to them about master-slave anyway if it wasn't relevant to the conversation - it's not even a scenario that would exist? So should the BDSM community stop using the terms master and slave, or it's okay in that context but not in a technology context? Curious if you have a double standard or if you'll change your mind. Edit to add: I truly hope you answer the BDSM question instead of the likely avoidance so you can maintain an irrational position.
- collyw 6y ago
  I find the Orwellian nature of these changes uncomfortable. You really ought to look into a bit more history than what you got taught in school as slavery has gone on since as far as civilization and is in no way unique to the US. Slavery still goes on today and changing the terminology has done nothing to help that in any way. (Is your skin colour relevant to your answer in any way? I have no idea why you included that)
  - goto11 6y ago
    So you acknowledge that the slave/master terminology carries associations to human slavery. You just think is would be an Orwellian erasure of history to disconnect OS terminology from the historical reality?
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      The problem is that the word can have derogatory implications, not that it represents a bad thing to do with humans. If slavery didn't have the sort of implications it does in the US, it might be no worse than 'kill' or 'destroy'. You shouldn't do those to humans either, but seeing the word doesn't leave an unpleasant residue.
    - jayd16 6y ago
      Removing words with complex history or negative meaning is the definition of Newspeak. >Newspeak contains no negative terms. For example, the only way to express the meaning of “bad” is through the word “ungood.”
  - majewsky 6y ago
    Making the conscious choice to continue using these words is also Orwellian. In this case, there is no neutral language.
  - neckardt 6y ago
    > Slavery still goes on today and changing the terminology has done nothing to help that in any way. I'm aware slavery exists in other contexts and continues. In this case, I was trying to point out the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "slave". I imagine other US born devs might think similarly. I doubt this would do anything to solve slavery, but it would make me more comfortable. > Is your skin colour relevant to your answer in any way? I have no idea why you included that Since this is a racially charged topic, I assume the opinion of someone of color would hold more weight. I wanted to make my background clear so you wouldn't be guessing.
- LordHumungous 6y ago
  I felt that "master"/"slave" was imprecise and just kind of weird terminology long ago before it was flagged as problematic. "leader"/"replica" describes the behavior better.
  - xref 6y ago
    Your genuine comment on the topic being downvoted tells me there’s not much genuine conversation going on in these HN threads, which have been much more toxic than usual I agree with your point, and master/slave being replaced with much more descriptive terms depending on context will be a boon long term I believe. I think CircuitPython is using terms such as “input/listener” which more accurately describes the circuit. Other pairings like “generator/consumer” also make the relationship more clear when previously it was all lumped under “master/slave”
umvi 6y ago
Don't know any black people offended by this, but I have several white friends who are very offended by "non-inclusive" language like this. They feel they need to take offense and fight on behalf of minorities because they feel minorities may be unable to fight the fight themselves.
- collyw 6y ago
  "because they feel minorities may be unable to fight the fight themselves" The soft bigotry of low expectations.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
    Not in the slightest. I recognize that as a white dude that very easily fits the stereotypes common in tech the risk to my career for pushing forward on this stuff is relatively minor. For my non white co-workers things are more complicated. By pushing on the problems even gently, they'll most likely be branded as problematic. In particular the "angry black lady that's difficult to work with" branding comes out very fast. I can't change how I was born or the context of the stereotypes I live within. I can control how aware I am of that and shape my behavior in response.
    - blub 6y ago
      You're kidding yourself if you think that pushing forward on this stuff won't label you as problematic just because you happen to be white. You're just going to be the "angry white dude" instead of the "angry black lady".
      - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
        Nope, not at all. I've been outspoken about this stuff for quite some time. I tend to be someone people look to as a peer leader as well, no matter my title, largely because I am willing to be outspoken. I've never been criticized over it. I've been repeatedly praised for it.
- 6y ago
drunkpotato 6y ago
This is not a new debate, nor do I think it's a hill worth dying on. It's just as easy to say primary/secondary. I'm not personally discomforted by master/slave terminology, but I have no problem using primary/secondary and moving on with life. I'm a bit more puzzled by the blacklist/whitelist change. I've literally never once heard of anyone having a problem with this. But, if there is an equally descriptive alternative, I'd love to hear it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
CJefferson 6y ago
Yes, I've spoken to two black friends who are happy about these changes. They are not going to say that publicly on the internet, as they expect the alt-right to rain fire and death threats on them if they come out in public.
thrownaway954 6y ago
honestly i don't think you will from Gen X upwards. i think mostly it's millennial and below just wanting to change "something" that they have control over. i see how millennial and below are feeling the "squeeze" of the society that they wanted to not be apart of (renting instead of owning, freelancing instead of corporate job, code camps instead of college) and now realize that they completely screwed themselves. this whole movement is there way of lashing back and trying to have a voice. personally i (and probably most Gen Xers and above) could care less which is why there isn't really any "push back" not to go along.

Can anyone find me someone who actually gets offended by this? (And doesn't write a column for the Guardian or make money out of claiming offence everywhere).

by collyw 6y ago

Can anyone find me someone who actually gets offended by this? (And doesn't write a column for the Guardian or make money out of claiming offence everywhere).

neckardt 6y ago

White male here: I always found the terminology of master/slave uncomfortable. I never really encountered the word slave outside of american history classes, so in my head it does remind me of slavery in the US. I would frequently avoid using the word "slave" in technical discussions. I'm happy with this change.

FeepingCreature 6y ago
master in the git sense is not master/slave.
- acdha 6y ago
  It’s not clear that this is true: if were around when Git started, it was influenced heavily by BitKeeper and that did use master/slave: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/msg00066.html https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2019-May/...
  - _-david-_ 6y ago
    There are no slave branches in Git though.
    - acdha 6y ago
      Yes, but the point is that the history isn’t as clear cut as it might seem. I generally prefer other branch names anyway which tell how you use them - e.g. does “master” mean development actually happens there, where code is integrated for testing, the ready-to-release code (which is what the image/audio usage of master would imply), etc. Using terms like “develop”, “integration”, “release”, etc. make your project conventions more apparent.
  - JimDabell 6y ago
    It’s totally clear. Here is the person who chose the term "master" explaining that he chose it in relation to the term "master recording": > "master" as in e.g. "master recording". Perhaps you could say the original, but viewed from the production process perspective. — https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272280760280637441 https://twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272280760280637441 The idea that it is related to master/slave was guesswork based on the relation between Git and BitKeeper. But Git doesn’t have slaves and the guess was wrong.
    - acdha 6y ago
      … and if you read further in that same thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272958618124595201 https://mobile.twitter.com/xpasky/status/1272958618124595201 https://mobile.twitter.com/localheinz/status/1273302245002686464 https://mobile.twitter.com/localheinz/status/127330224500268... Again, I wouldn’t blame anyone for following use which is common in the field. What disappoints me is that some people are so strongly opposed to using more accurate terms when they’re not even being asked to do the small amount of work. Maybe this is innocent, maybe it’s not, we could fix it now and never have to spend time on this conversation again.
      - JimDabell 6y ago
        Thanks for bringing that to my attention, I find it easy to miss things in Twitter threads. > What disappoints me is that some people are so strongly opposed to using more accurate terms when they’re not even being asked to do the small amount of work. > we could fix it now and never have to spend time on this conversation again. I really hate this perception that changing master to main is easy. There’s 15 years of documentation out there that uses master. If it’s anything like other legacy documentation, it’ll take another ten years for that documentation to fall out of use. In the meantime, there’s tonnes of young, inexperienced developers who will get stuck on this. Haven’t you ever seen a junior developer panic, think they are screwing up, and question their self-worth because they feel like they can’t even follow simple step-by-step instructions, when the problem is the documentation they are following is wrong? The right way of doing this would be to coördinate via the main Git project and have a plan for what to do with all the existing documentation out there. As it stands, people unilaterally charged forward with it thoughtlessly, and are going to cause a great deal of practical pain for inexperienced developers, many of whom will be black. You really think triggering imposter syndrome in them is harmless?
- drusepth 6y ago
  I've always been under the impression that it's master as in "master copy".
  - pravus 6y ago
    Audio engineering uses the term "master" for the source of highest fidelity "copy"ing...
TulliusCicero 6y ago
Linux isn't a US-specific OS, though. Obviously the history of slavery isn't exactly a happy topic regardless of nationality, but it may not necessarily have the racial tinge to it in other cultures.
- goto11 6y ago
  Slave/master are English words though, so what matters is their meaning and connotations in the English language.
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    ...okay? The US doesn't own the English language, either. And the word "slave" in English refers to slavery throughout history and in various cultures, anyway, including slavery that still exists today, "wage slavery", etc.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    English has been host to a lot of slavery of many kinds of people. The racial implications are much more of a US thing.
loceng 6y ago
That discomfort has to do with your own narrow associations with the word, unable to separate the contexts and therefore triggering the human slavery version of master/slave in your mind and the associated emotions. Master and slave in this context has nothing to do with human slavery.
- neckardt 6y ago
  > That discomfort has to do with your own narrow associations with the word, unable to separate the contexts and therefore triggering the human slavery version of master/slave in your mind and the associated emotions. I agree with all of this. I'm sure if I were to work with master/slave systems for a while the connotation to me would change from the historical one to the technical. However even then, if I communicate with someone outside of technical people, it will carry the slavery connotation to them. A while ago I had a similar issue when trying to explain male and female connectors to a friend. When she heard me use the terminology she thought I was joking, and I had to show her the wikipedia article and connectors on amazon. In that case it was harmless, but I could imagine the same scenario happening when trying to explain master/slave terminology to a colored person, and it coming off as an offensive joke.
  - loceng 6y ago
    No, you're coddling them then - if you reference master-slave to someone outside of technical people then the context of the conversation will be technology, coddling them and treating them as if they're fragile and can't learn of a new context; why would you be talking to them about master-slave anyway if it wasn't relevant to the conversation - it's not even a scenario that would exist? So should the BDSM community stop using the terms master and slave, or it's okay in that context but not in a technology context? Curious if you have a double standard or if you'll change your mind. Edit to add: I truly hope you answer the BDSM question instead of the likely avoidance so you can maintain an irrational position.
collyw 6y ago
I find the Orwellian nature of these changes uncomfortable. You really ought to look into a bit more history than what you got taught in school as slavery has gone on since as far as civilization and is in no way unique to the US. Slavery still goes on today and changing the terminology has done nothing to help that in any way. (Is your skin colour relevant to your answer in any way? I have no idea why you included that)
- goto11 6y ago
  So you acknowledge that the slave/master terminology carries associations to human slavery. You just think is would be an Orwellian erasure of history to disconnect OS terminology from the historical reality?
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    The problem is that the word can have derogatory implications, not that it represents a bad thing to do with humans. If slavery didn't have the sort of implications it does in the US, it might be no worse than 'kill' or 'destroy'. You shouldn't do those to humans either, but seeing the word doesn't leave an unpleasant residue.
  - jayd16 6y ago
    Removing words with complex history or negative meaning is the definition of Newspeak. >Newspeak contains no negative terms. For example, the only way to express the meaning of “bad” is through the word “ungood.”
- majewsky 6y ago
  Making the conscious choice to continue using these words is also Orwellian. In this case, there is no neutral language.
- neckardt 6y ago
  > Slavery still goes on today and changing the terminology has done nothing to help that in any way. I'm aware slavery exists in other contexts and continues. In this case, I was trying to point out the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "slave". I imagine other US born devs might think similarly. I doubt this would do anything to solve slavery, but it would make me more comfortable. > Is your skin colour relevant to your answer in any way? I have no idea why you included that Since this is a racially charged topic, I assume the opinion of someone of color would hold more weight. I wanted to make my background clear so you wouldn't be guessing.
LordHumungous 6y ago
I felt that "master"/"slave" was imprecise and just kind of weird terminology long ago before it was flagged as problematic. "leader"/"replica" describes the behavior better.
- xref 6y ago
  Your genuine comment on the topic being downvoted tells me there’s not much genuine conversation going on in these HN threads, which have been much more toxic than usual I agree with your point, and master/slave being replaced with much more descriptive terms depending on context will be a boon long term I believe. I think CircuitPython is using terms such as “input/listener” which more accurately describes the circuit. Other pairings like “generator/consumer” also make the relationship more clear when previously it was all lumped under “master/slave”

umvi 6y ago

Don't know any black people offended by this, but I have several white friends who are very offended by "non-inclusive" language like this. They feel they need to take offense and fight on behalf of minorities because they feel minorities may be unable to fight the fight themselves.

collyw 6y ago
"because they feel minorities may be unable to fight the fight themselves" The soft bigotry of low expectations.
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
  Not in the slightest. I recognize that as a white dude that very easily fits the stereotypes common in tech the risk to my career for pushing forward on this stuff is relatively minor. For my non white co-workers things are more complicated. By pushing on the problems even gently, they'll most likely be branded as problematic. In particular the "angry black lady that's difficult to work with" branding comes out very fast. I can't change how I was born or the context of the stereotypes I live within. I can control how aware I am of that and shape my behavior in response.
  - blub 6y ago
    You're kidding yourself if you think that pushing forward on this stuff won't label you as problematic just because you happen to be white. You're just going to be the "angry white dude" instead of the "angry black lady".
    - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
      Nope, not at all. I've been outspoken about this stuff for quite some time. I tend to be someone people look to as a peer leader as well, no matter my title, largely because I am willing to be outspoken. I've never been criticized over it. I've been repeatedly praised for it.
6y ago

drunkpotato 6y ago

This is not a new debate, nor do I think it's a hill worth dying on. It's just as easy to say primary/secondary. I'm not personally discomforted by master/slave terminology, but I have no problem using primary/secondary and moving on with life. I'm a bit more puzzled by the blacklist/whitelist change. I've literally never once heard of anyone having a problem with this. But, if there is an equally descriptive alternative, I'd love to hear it.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

CJefferson 6y ago

Yes, I've spoken to two black friends who are happy about these changes. They are not going to say that publicly on the internet, as they expect the alt-right to rain fire and death threats on them if they come out in public.

thrownaway954 6y ago

honestly i don't think you will from Gen X upwards. i think mostly it's millennial and below just wanting to change "something" that they have control over. i see how millennial and below are feeling the "squeeze" of the society that they wanted to not be apart of (renting instead of owning, freelancing instead of corporate job, code camps instead of college) and now realize that they completely screwed themselves. this whole movement is there way of lashing back and trying to have a voice. personally i (and probably most Gen Xers and above) could care less which is why there isn't really any "push back" not to go along.