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> And he is doing it out of boredom as he is in many ways the stereotypical software guy. I don't know any software person who works at 6AM on a Sunday. >He l

> And he is doing it out of boredom as he is in many ways the stereotypical software guy. I don't know any software person who works at 6AM on a Sunday. >He logged in to work at midnight today while chatting with me. Why? He has nothing else to do. Does he have time to find anything else to do? > Spending a greater percentage of that time coding for work does not meaningfully impact my quality of life other than taking away from commenting on forums or my hobby of solving innovation challenges. Being online and working is not the same at all. Maybe for you, for not most people. > but a lot of software engineers (like me or the aforementioned friends) have none of those Several things: 1. Not having anything other than your job is bad. Full stop. Maybe a handful of persons can work in that situation, but having such a messed up work-life balance is bad for your health, there are plenty of studies on this. 2. Have you asked why this happens? Maybe it's not just people who like that, but people who have no other options due to companies "forcing" those hours. 3. Is this beneficial? How much productivity can someone get out of the last 2 hours of a 12-hour work day? How much is that extra work worth? 4. Are you and your friends ready to take on those workloads for your whole life? Because it's hard to get out of that dynamic. 5. Burnout is a serious issue. Burnout can lead to depression, can lead to losing your job, to having serious health problems... It's not a joke. It's a serious risk.

0xBA5ED 6y ago
>1. Not having anything other than your job is bad. Full stop. Maybe a handful of persons can work in that situation, but having such a messed up work-life balance is bad for your health, there are plenty of studies on this. It's not for you to decide where anyone derives their meaning and happiness in life or how many hours they should work. You can only decide this for yourself. >2. Have you asked why this happens? Maybe it's not just people who like that, but people who have no other options due to companies "forcing" those hours. There are always options. It's up to you to find the niche that works for you. >3. Is this beneficial? How much productivity can someone get out of the last 2 hours of a 12-hour work day? How much is that extra work worth? Depends on the individual. >4. Are you and your friends ready to take on those workloads for your whole life? Because it's hard to get out of that dynamic. Their decision. >5. Burnout is a serious issue. Burnout can lead to depression, can lead to losing your job, to having serious health problems... It's not a joke. It's a serious risk. It's each individual's risk to take. If someone wants to work 12 hours a day, it is their decision. "Full stop"
- gjulianm 6y ago
  It’s not just their decision, that’s the thing. Crazy work hours are generally harmful, even people who “find meaning in it” can get burned out. And if companies allow and encourage staying more hours, it creates an environment where people can’t choose to work sane hours. And it’s not even an issue of giving more value or anything, because most time the extra hours don’t bring in additional productivity. Most importantly, it’s not an isolated thing. It’s not just one or two persons doing it: if it were that it wouldn’t be a problem. It’s a generalized culture issue that should be taken seriously and not only viewed in terms of individuals.
  - OminousWeapons 6y ago
    I have seen many people work much longer than 8 hours a day without issue or burnout if it's what they like doing. Hell, I do so as well. Burnout is not simply a function of hours worked, it's a function of perceived ROI on those hours. Obviously people shouldn't be working 20 hours a day as that's not sustainable and work product will be low quality, but 8 is not the upper bound for a lot of people. > And if companies allow and encourage staying more hours, it creates an environment where people can’t choose to work sane hours. Yes they can, they just have to accept that they will get compensated and rewarded less than people who generate additional high quality work. That should be fine and is fair; those people working 8 hours are deriving value from other activities. It's not reasonable to say "I demand everyone works 8 hours because I want to work 8 hours and I don't want any ramifications for making that decision".
    - gjulianm 6y ago
      > I have seen many people work much longer than 8 hours a day without issue or burnout if it's what they like doing For how much time? There is a clear association between more working hours and more burnout [1] and health problems [2] that can be delayed for decades. > Yes they can, they just have to accept that they will get compensated and rewarded less than people who generate additional high quality work. Sorry, but in most places this doesn't happen. I'm lucky to be out of those environments, but the expectation tends to be that everybody works those hours or they're out, even if they're producing the same high quality work (also, I highly doubt that more hours equals more high quality work: productivity decreases after a certain point, specially in software, that's why 6-hour work days are being discussed so much). I still remember a friend being glad that he convinced his manager to "only" work 10 hours a day, because he was literally losing hair due to the extra work. This guy liked what he was doing and at the beginning said "it doesn't matter, I'm happy working these hours. > It's not reasonable to say "I demand everyone works 8 hours because I want to work 8 hours and I don't want any ramifications for making that decision". Well, this is the law in most countries in Europe. Overtime is heavily regulated (enforcement is another matter, unfortunately) precisely because business pressure can be disguised as "individual decisions". When a lot of people start working more hours, it puts pressure on people who fulfill their contracted hours, and who might not want or be able to put those extra hours. In the end, it's a balancing act between giving some people the freedom to work the hours they want and helping the company put pressure on others to do more hours than they were contracted for (in other words, changing their work conditions without negotiation) or give others the freedom to do the job they were hired and paid for without pressure to do more than what was negotiated. Me, I prefer to err on the side of caution and choose the action that doesn't harm the health and well-being of the employees. 1: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302591873_The_Associations_Between_Long_Working_Hours_Physical_Inactivity_and_Burnout https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302591873_The_Assoc... 2: https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/24/3/422/477763 https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/24/3/422/477763
erikerikson 6y ago
> 3. Is this beneficial? How much productivity can someone get out of the last 2 hours of a 12-hour work day? How much is that extra work worth? Many studies have shown that extra work has negative value, particularly in intellectual disciplines.

0xBA5ED 6y ago

>1. Not having anything other than your job is bad. Full stop. Maybe a handful of persons can work in that situation, but having such a messed up work-life balance is bad for your health, there are plenty of studies on this. It's not for you to decide where anyone derives their meaning and happiness in life or how many hours they should work. You can only decide this for yourself. >2. Have you asked why this happens? Maybe it's not just people who like that, but people who have no other options due to companies "forcing" those hours. There are always options. It's up to you to find the niche that works for you. >3. Is this beneficial? How much productivity can someone get out of the last 2 hours of a 12-hour work day? How much is that extra work worth? Depends on the individual. >4. Are you and your friends ready to take on those workloads for your whole life? Because it's hard to get out of that dynamic. Their decision. >5. Burnout is a serious issue. Burnout can lead to depression, can lead to losing your job, to having serious health problems... It's not a joke. It's a serious risk. It's each individual's risk to take. If someone wants to work 12 hours a day, it is their decision. "Full stop"

gjulianm 6y ago
It’s not just their decision, that’s the thing. Crazy work hours are generally harmful, even people who “find meaning in it” can get burned out. And if companies allow and encourage staying more hours, it creates an environment where people can’t choose to work sane hours. And it’s not even an issue of giving more value or anything, because most time the extra hours don’t bring in additional productivity. Most importantly, it’s not an isolated thing. It’s not just one or two persons doing it: if it were that it wouldn’t be a problem. It’s a generalized culture issue that should be taken seriously and not only viewed in terms of individuals.
- OminousWeapons 6y ago
  I have seen many people work much longer than 8 hours a day without issue or burnout if it's what they like doing. Hell, I do so as well. Burnout is not simply a function of hours worked, it's a function of perceived ROI on those hours. Obviously people shouldn't be working 20 hours a day as that's not sustainable and work product will be low quality, but 8 is not the upper bound for a lot of people. > And if companies allow and encourage staying more hours, it creates an environment where people can’t choose to work sane hours. Yes they can, they just have to accept that they will get compensated and rewarded less than people who generate additional high quality work. That should be fine and is fair; those people working 8 hours are deriving value from other activities. It's not reasonable to say "I demand everyone works 8 hours because I want to work 8 hours and I don't want any ramifications for making that decision".
  - gjulianm 6y ago
    > I have seen many people work much longer than 8 hours a day without issue or burnout if it's what they like doing For how much time? There is a clear association between more working hours and more burnout [1] and health problems [2] that can be delayed for decades. > Yes they can, they just have to accept that they will get compensated and rewarded less than people who generate additional high quality work. Sorry, but in most places this doesn't happen. I'm lucky to be out of those environments, but the expectation tends to be that everybody works those hours or they're out, even if they're producing the same high quality work (also, I highly doubt that more hours equals more high quality work: productivity decreases after a certain point, specially in software, that's why 6-hour work days are being discussed so much). I still remember a friend being glad that he convinced his manager to "only" work 10 hours a day, because he was literally losing hair due to the extra work. This guy liked what he was doing and at the beginning said "it doesn't matter, I'm happy working these hours. > It's not reasonable to say "I demand everyone works 8 hours because I want to work 8 hours and I don't want any ramifications for making that decision". Well, this is the law in most countries in Europe. Overtime is heavily regulated (enforcement is another matter, unfortunately) precisely because business pressure can be disguised as "individual decisions". When a lot of people start working more hours, it puts pressure on people who fulfill their contracted hours, and who might not want or be able to put those extra hours. In the end, it's a balancing act between giving some people the freedom to work the hours they want and helping the company put pressure on others to do more hours than they were contracted for (in other words, changing their work conditions without negotiation) or give others the freedom to do the job they were hired and paid for without pressure to do more than what was negotiated. Me, I prefer to err on the side of caution and choose the action that doesn't harm the health and well-being of the employees. 1: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302591873_The_Associations_Between_Long_Working_Hours_Physical_Inactivity_and_Burnout https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302591873_The_Assoc... 2: https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/24/3/422/477763 https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article/24/3/422/477763

erikerikson 6y ago

> 3. Is this beneficial? How much productivity can someone get out of the last 2 hours of a 12-hour work day? How much is that extra work worth? Many studies have shown that extra work has negative value, particularly in intellectual disciplines.