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> generally optional for extra rewards Rewards like burnout, lower quality of life, worsening relationships with friends and family...? The problem is actuall

> generally optional for extra rewards Rewards like burnout, lower quality of life, worsening relationships with friends and family...? The problem is actually a vicious circle. People work more to be valued more, which causes others to work also more so that they can compete. The company benefits from this and takes it as the new normal: deadlines shorten, workload increases, and it stops being optional to become "optional", as in "you can opt out of more work, but get ready to find another job soon". Now you have a whole group of workers burning themselves out for marginally more money and status, while the company they work for makes more money. And no, it doesn't just happen at Amazon. This happens to software engineers everywhere. Of course, it's not by far the same situation as factory workers, but there's a serious problem with the work culture in software, specially in the US.

MattGaiser 6y ago
> Rewards like burnout, lower quality of life, worsening relationships with friends and family...? But what are those things worth to you? As they have different values to everyone. A friend of mine is currently working on his software project at work (and this is for a massive non tech company, so it is not as if it is a startup). It is 6AM on a Sunday and that is what he is doing. And he is doing it out of boredom as he is in many ways the stereotypical software guy. Another good friend is in Seattle. He logged in to work at midnight today while chatting with me. Why? He has nothing else to do. I spend 100+ hours at my computer a week and have since high school. Spending a greater percentage of that time coding for work does not meaningfully impact my quality of life other than taking away from commenting on forums or my hobby of solving innovation challenges. Whether I am unemployed or facing a major deadline, I am going to be online anyway. I get why long hours would be terrible for people with families requiring attention or girlfriends or those who like hiking, but a lot of software engineers (like me or the aforementioned friends) have none of those, making more work very cheap for us.
- gjulianm 6y ago
  > And he is doing it out of boredom as he is in many ways the stereotypical software guy. I don't know any software person who works at 6AM on a Sunday. >He logged in to work at midnight today while chatting with me. Why? He has nothing else to do. Does he have time to find anything else to do? > Spending a greater percentage of that time coding for work does not meaningfully impact my quality of life other than taking away from commenting on forums or my hobby of solving innovation challenges. Being online and working is not the same at all. Maybe for you, for not most people. > but a lot of software engineers (like me or the aforementioned friends) have none of those Several things: 1. Not having anything other than your job is bad. Full stop. Maybe a handful of persons can work in that situation, but having such a messed up work-life balance is bad for your health, there are plenty of studies on this. 2. Have you asked why this happens? Maybe it's not just people who like that, but people who have no other options due to companies "forcing" those hours. 3. Is this beneficial? How much productivity can someone get out of the last 2 hours of a 12-hour work day? How much is that extra work worth? 4. Are you and your friends ready to take on those workloads for your whole life? Because it's hard to get out of that dynamic. 5. Burnout is a serious issue. Burnout can lead to depression, can lead to losing your job, to having serious health problems... It's not a joke. It's a serious risk.
  - 0xBA5ED 6y ago
    >1. Not having anything other than your job is bad. Full stop. Maybe a handful of persons can work in that situation, but having such a messed up work-life balance is bad for your health, there are plenty of studies on this. It's not for you to decide where anyone derives their meaning and happiness in life or how many hours they should work. You can only decide this for yourself. >2. Have you asked why this happens? Maybe it's not just people who like that, but people who have no other options due to companies "forcing" those hours. There are always options. It's up to you to find the niche that works for you. >3. Is this beneficial? How much productivity can someone get out of the last 2 hours of a 12-hour work day? How much is that extra work worth? Depends on the individual. >4. Are you and your friends ready to take on those workloads for your whole life? Because it's hard to get out of that dynamic. Their decision. >5. Burnout is a serious issue. Burnout can lead to depression, can lead to losing your job, to having serious health problems... It's not a joke. It's a serious risk. It's each individual's risk to take. If someone wants to work 12 hours a day, it is their decision. "Full stop"
    - gjulianm 6y ago
      It’s not just their decision, that’s the thing. Crazy work hours are generally harmful, even people who “find meaning in it” can get burned out. And if companies allow and encourage staying more hours, it creates an environment where people can’t choose to work sane hours. And it’s not even an issue of giving more value or anything, because most time the extra hours don’t bring in additional productivity. Most importantly, it’s not an isolated thing. It’s not just one or two persons doing it: if it were that it wouldn’t be a problem. It’s a generalized culture issue that should be taken seriously and not only viewed in terms of individuals.
      - OminousWeapons 6y ago
        I have seen many people work much longer than 8 hours a day without issue or burnout if it's what they like doing. Hell, I do so as well. Burnout is not simply a function of hours worked, it's a function of perceived ROI on those hours. Obviously people shouldn't be working 20 hours a day as that's not sustainable and work product will be low quality, but 8 is not the upper bound for a lot of people. > And if companies allow and encourage staying more hours, it creates an environment where people can’t choose to work sane hours. Yes they can, they just have to accept that they will get compensated and rewarded less than people who generate additional high quality work. That should be fine and is fair; those people working 8 hours are deriving value from other activities. It's not reasonable to say "I demand everyone works 8 hours because I want to work 8 hours and I don't want any ramifications for making that decision".
- pragmatic 6y ago
  You need to find something else to do and encourage your friends to do the same. This is incredibly unhealthy in so many ways. This is the gateway to anxiety, depression and physical disability. The human body is not meant to sit in front of a computer that many hours. You will pay a price. Maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow, but you don't stay young forever. Please help yourself before it's too late.

MattGaiser 6y ago

> Rewards like burnout, lower quality of life, worsening relationships with friends and family...? But what are those things worth to you? As they have different values to everyone. A friend of mine is currently working on his software project at work (and this is for a massive non tech company, so it is not as if it is a startup). It is 6AM on a Sunday and that is what he is doing. And he is doing it out of boredom as he is in many ways the stereotypical software guy. Another good friend is in Seattle. He logged in to work at midnight today while chatting with me. Why? He has nothing else to do. I spend 100+ hours at my computer a week and have since high school. Spending a greater percentage of that time coding for work does not meaningfully impact my quality of life other than taking away from commenting on forums or my hobby of solving innovation challenges. Whether I am unemployed or facing a major deadline, I am going to be online anyway. I get why long hours would be terrible for people with families requiring attention or girlfriends or those who like hiking, but a lot of software engineers (like me or the aforementioned friends) have none of those, making more work very cheap for us.

gjulianm 6y ago
> And he is doing it out of boredom as he is in many ways the stereotypical software guy. I don't know any software person who works at 6AM on a Sunday. >He logged in to work at midnight today while chatting with me. Why? He has nothing else to do. Does he have time to find anything else to do? > Spending a greater percentage of that time coding for work does not meaningfully impact my quality of life other than taking away from commenting on forums or my hobby of solving innovation challenges. Being online and working is not the same at all. Maybe for you, for not most people. > but a lot of software engineers (like me or the aforementioned friends) have none of those Several things: 1. Not having anything other than your job is bad. Full stop. Maybe a handful of persons can work in that situation, but having such a messed up work-life balance is bad for your health, there are plenty of studies on this. 2. Have you asked why this happens? Maybe it's not just people who like that, but people who have no other options due to companies "forcing" those hours. 3. Is this beneficial? How much productivity can someone get out of the last 2 hours of a 12-hour work day? How much is that extra work worth? 4. Are you and your friends ready to take on those workloads for your whole life? Because it's hard to get out of that dynamic. 5. Burnout is a serious issue. Burnout can lead to depression, can lead to losing your job, to having serious health problems... It's not a joke. It's a serious risk.
- 0xBA5ED 6y ago
  >1. Not having anything other than your job is bad. Full stop. Maybe a handful of persons can work in that situation, but having such a messed up work-life balance is bad for your health, there are plenty of studies on this. It's not for you to decide where anyone derives their meaning and happiness in life or how many hours they should work. You can only decide this for yourself. >2. Have you asked why this happens? Maybe it's not just people who like that, but people who have no other options due to companies "forcing" those hours. There are always options. It's up to you to find the niche that works for you. >3. Is this beneficial? How much productivity can someone get out of the last 2 hours of a 12-hour work day? How much is that extra work worth? Depends on the individual. >4. Are you and your friends ready to take on those workloads for your whole life? Because it's hard to get out of that dynamic. Their decision. >5. Burnout is a serious issue. Burnout can lead to depression, can lead to losing your job, to having serious health problems... It's not a joke. It's a serious risk. It's each individual's risk to take. If someone wants to work 12 hours a day, it is their decision. "Full stop"
  - gjulianm 6y ago
    It’s not just their decision, that’s the thing. Crazy work hours are generally harmful, even people who “find meaning in it” can get burned out. And if companies allow and encourage staying more hours, it creates an environment where people can’t choose to work sane hours. And it’s not even an issue of giving more value or anything, because most time the extra hours don’t bring in additional productivity. Most importantly, it’s not an isolated thing. It’s not just one or two persons doing it: if it were that it wouldn’t be a problem. It’s a generalized culture issue that should be taken seriously and not only viewed in terms of individuals.
    - OminousWeapons 6y ago
      I have seen many people work much longer than 8 hours a day without issue or burnout if it's what they like doing. Hell, I do so as well. Burnout is not simply a function of hours worked, it's a function of perceived ROI on those hours. Obviously people shouldn't be working 20 hours a day as that's not sustainable and work product will be low quality, but 8 is not the upper bound for a lot of people. > And if companies allow and encourage staying more hours, it creates an environment where people can’t choose to work sane hours. Yes they can, they just have to accept that they will get compensated and rewarded less than people who generate additional high quality work. That should be fine and is fair; those people working 8 hours are deriving value from other activities. It's not reasonable to say "I demand everyone works 8 hours because I want to work 8 hours and I don't want any ramifications for making that decision".
pragmatic 6y ago
You need to find something else to do and encourage your friends to do the same. This is incredibly unhealthy in so many ways. This is the gateway to anxiety, depression and physical disability. The human body is not meant to sit in front of a computer that many hours. You will pay a price. Maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow, but you don't stay young forever. Please help yourself before it's too late.