6 ms·

I don't know how you can believe this unless you somehow also believe professionals are at the top.

MattGaiser 6y ago
In the case of professionals, the extra work is generally optional for extra rewards. You can have a career as a software engineer with a 40 hour week if you want. It just won't be at Amazon. You can have a career as a lawyer, just not at big law. Professionals get to opt in and get commensurate rewards. The factory workers didn't get anything extra for their extra efforts.
- ben_w 6y ago
  When I was working in a factory (summer holiday job during my A-levels), onetime was paid at time-and-a-half. Now I’m a software dev working in an office, the base pay is much better, but there is no overtime.
  - war1025 6y ago
    One of my neighbors mentioned that they were offering triple time to work the 4th of July at the factory he works at. He didn't want to work, and thankfully there were enough people interested in the offer that he could have the day off.
- gjulianm 6y ago
  > generally optional for extra rewards Rewards like burnout, lower quality of life, worsening relationships with friends and family...? The problem is actually a vicious circle. People work more to be valued more, which causes others to work also more so that they can compete. The company benefits from this and takes it as the new normal: deadlines shorten, workload increases, and it stops being optional to become "optional", as in "you can opt out of more work, but get ready to find another job soon". Now you have a whole group of workers burning themselves out for marginally more money and status, while the company they work for makes more money. And no, it doesn't just happen at Amazon. This happens to software engineers everywhere. Of course, it's not by far the same situation as factory workers, but there's a serious problem with the work culture in software, specially in the US.
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    > Rewards like burnout, lower quality of life, worsening relationships with friends and family...? But what are those things worth to you? As they have different values to everyone. A friend of mine is currently working on his software project at work (and this is for a massive non tech company, so it is not as if it is a startup). It is 6AM on a Sunday and that is what he is doing. And he is doing it out of boredom as he is in many ways the stereotypical software guy. Another good friend is in Seattle. He logged in to work at midnight today while chatting with me. Why? He has nothing else to do. I spend 100+ hours at my computer a week and have since high school. Spending a greater percentage of that time coding for work does not meaningfully impact my quality of life other than taking away from commenting on forums or my hobby of solving innovation challenges. Whether I am unemployed or facing a major deadline, I am going to be online anyway. I get why long hours would be terrible for people with families requiring attention or girlfriends or those who like hiking, but a lot of software engineers (like me or the aforementioned friends) have none of those, making more work very cheap for us.
    - gjulianm 6y ago
      > And he is doing it out of boredom as he is in many ways the stereotypical software guy. I don't know any software person who works at 6AM on a Sunday. >He logged in to work at midnight today while chatting with me. Why? He has nothing else to do. Does he have time to find anything else to do? > Spending a greater percentage of that time coding for work does not meaningfully impact my quality of life other than taking away from commenting on forums or my hobby of solving innovation challenges. Being online and working is not the same at all. Maybe for you, for not most people. > but a lot of software engineers (like me or the aforementioned friends) have none of those Several things: 1. Not having anything other than your job is bad. Full stop. Maybe a handful of persons can work in that situation, but having such a messed up work-life balance is bad for your health, there are plenty of studies on this. 2. Have you asked why this happens? Maybe it's not just people who like that, but people who have no other options due to companies "forcing" those hours. 3. Is this beneficial? How much productivity can someone get out of the last 2 hours of a 12-hour work day? How much is that extra work worth? 4. Are you and your friends ready to take on those workloads for your whole life? Because it's hard to get out of that dynamic. 5. Burnout is a serious issue. Burnout can lead to depression, can lead to losing your job, to having serious health problems... It's not a joke. It's a serious risk.
- xvector 6y ago
  > You can have a career as a software engineer with a 40 hour week if you want. It just won't be at Amazon. Even if you are a software engineer you can make top-tier, simply insane amounts of money at most big companies with a sub-40 hour workweek. It is simply a matter of finding the right team and having a good manager. The former is something you can affect and the latter can be luck. But you can definitely make some of the best compensation in CS and have cushy working hours if you play your cards right.
- ianhorn 6y ago
  > Professionals get to opt in and get commensurate rewards. More like professionals are forced in, but get commensurate rewards. Employment isn't flexible enough for people to really choose extra work for extra rewards. The "typical" (average, median, raced-to-the-bottom, whatever) amount people are willing to work and the typical amount they're willing to work for dictates what jobs are even out there. When you need roughly replaceable workers, you give them all roughly the same deal, so professionals aren't just competing on wages vs skill, but on the whole necessarily-mostly-homogeneous package. I'm happy to have these extra benefits well above a living wage, but I'd take a fraction of my comp for a fraction of my hours in a heartbeat, but we're in a world where a FAANG wage/hour means basically FAANG hours.

In the case of professionals, the extra work is generally optional for extra rewards. You can have a career as a software engineer with a 40 hour week if you want. It just won't be at Amazon. You can have a career as a lawyer, just not at big law. Professionals get to opt in and get commensurate rewards. The factory workers didn't get anything extra for their extra efforts.

ben_w 6y ago
When I was working in a factory (summer holiday job during my A-levels), onetime was paid at time-and-a-half. Now I’m a software dev working in an office, the base pay is much better, but there is no overtime.
- war1025 6y ago
  One of my neighbors mentioned that they were offering triple time to work the 4th of July at the factory he works at. He didn't want to work, and thankfully there were enough people interested in the offer that he could have the day off.
gjulianm 6y ago
> generally optional for extra rewards Rewards like burnout, lower quality of life, worsening relationships with friends and family...? The problem is actually a vicious circle. People work more to be valued more, which causes others to work also more so that they can compete. The company benefits from this and takes it as the new normal: deadlines shorten, workload increases, and it stops being optional to become "optional", as in "you can opt out of more work, but get ready to find another job soon". Now you have a whole group of workers burning themselves out for marginally more money and status, while the company they work for makes more money. And no, it doesn't just happen at Amazon. This happens to software engineers everywhere. Of course, it's not by far the same situation as factory workers, but there's a serious problem with the work culture in software, specially in the US.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  > Rewards like burnout, lower quality of life, worsening relationships with friends and family...? But what are those things worth to you? As they have different values to everyone. A friend of mine is currently working on his software project at work (and this is for a massive non tech company, so it is not as if it is a startup). It is 6AM on a Sunday and that is what he is doing. And he is doing it out of boredom as he is in many ways the stereotypical software guy. Another good friend is in Seattle. He logged in to work at midnight today while chatting with me. Why? He has nothing else to do. I spend 100+ hours at my computer a week and have since high school. Spending a greater percentage of that time coding for work does not meaningfully impact my quality of life other than taking away from commenting on forums or my hobby of solving innovation challenges. Whether I am unemployed or facing a major deadline, I am going to be online anyway. I get why long hours would be terrible for people with families requiring attention or girlfriends or those who like hiking, but a lot of software engineers (like me or the aforementioned friends) have none of those, making more work very cheap for us.
  - gjulianm 6y ago
    > And he is doing it out of boredom as he is in many ways the stereotypical software guy. I don't know any software person who works at 6AM on a Sunday. >He logged in to work at midnight today while chatting with me. Why? He has nothing else to do. Does he have time to find anything else to do? > Spending a greater percentage of that time coding for work does not meaningfully impact my quality of life other than taking away from commenting on forums or my hobby of solving innovation challenges. Being online and working is not the same at all. Maybe for you, for not most people. > but a lot of software engineers (like me or the aforementioned friends) have none of those Several things: 1. Not having anything other than your job is bad. Full stop. Maybe a handful of persons can work in that situation, but having such a messed up work-life balance is bad for your health, there are plenty of studies on this. 2. Have you asked why this happens? Maybe it's not just people who like that, but people who have no other options due to companies "forcing" those hours. 3. Is this beneficial? How much productivity can someone get out of the last 2 hours of a 12-hour work day? How much is that extra work worth? 4. Are you and your friends ready to take on those workloads for your whole life? Because it's hard to get out of that dynamic. 5. Burnout is a serious issue. Burnout can lead to depression, can lead to losing your job, to having serious health problems... It's not a joke. It's a serious risk.
xvector 6y ago
> You can have a career as a software engineer with a 40 hour week if you want. It just won't be at Amazon. Even if you are a software engineer you can make top-tier, simply insane amounts of money at most big companies with a sub-40 hour workweek. It is simply a matter of finding the right team and having a good manager. The former is something you can affect and the latter can be luck. But you can definitely make some of the best compensation in CS and have cushy working hours if you play your cards right.
ianhorn 6y ago
> Professionals get to opt in and get commensurate rewards. More like professionals are forced in, but get commensurate rewards. Employment isn't flexible enough for people to really choose extra work for extra rewards. The "typical" (average, median, raced-to-the-bottom, whatever) amount people are willing to work and the typical amount they're willing to work for dictates what jobs are even out there. When you need roughly replaceable workers, you give them all roughly the same deal, so professionals aren't just competing on wages vs skill, but on the whole necessarily-mostly-homogeneous package. I'm happy to have these extra benefits well above a living wage, but I'd take a fraction of my comp for a fraction of my hours in a heartbeat, but we're in a world where a FAANG wage/hour means basically FAANG hours.