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It's worth noting the corruption around the building of this infrastructure. The president of the region at the time had been arrested along with notable other

It's worth noting the corruption around the building of this infrastructure. The president of the region at the time had been arrested along with notable other people within the public and private sector. This, unfortunately, is the story for every public infrastructure in Italy.

lbeltrame 6y ago
> This, unfortunately, is the story for every public infrastructure in Italy. I argue it's not the case. Over-bureaucracy (ironically, to fight "corruption", like the useless "anti-corruption authority") is one of the major reasons things get done at glacial paces (and the same reason sometimes people use "other ways" to speed up things). The replacement of Ponte Morandi in Genova is a prime example of this fact: to rebuild it lots of "rules" had to be suspended.
- camillomiller 6y ago
  ciao Gigi ;)
- throwaways8n27d 6y ago
  > Over-bureaucracy (ironically, to fight "corruption", like the useless "anti-corruption authority") is one of the major reasons things get done at glacial paces (and the same reason sometimes people use "other ways" to speed up things). Data in 2018's report "Tempi di realizzazione delle opere pubbliche" [0] seems to contradict this. The 7th post in this [1] twitter thread summarizes it. [0] https://www.agenziacoesione.gov.it/news_istituzionali/tempi-di-realizzazione-delle-opere-pubbliche-online-il-rapporto-2018/ https://www.agenziacoesione.gov.it/news_istituzionali/tempi-... [1] https://twitter.com/CarloStagnaro/status/1280401691997876227 https://twitter.com/CarloStagnaro/status/1280401691997876227 Edit: added post number.
  - lbeltrame 6y ago
    The Twitter thread seems to contradict this claim. > Seconda domanda: da cosa dipendono allora le lungaggini, se non dall’affidamento? La risposta è esattamente quella che state pensando: dalla burocrazia. "Second question: what is the cause of slowness, if not when a work is actually given [to whoever got the contract]? The answer is exactly what you're thinking about: bureaucracy." The next few tweets bring data which supports this.
- baybal2 6y ago
  What do you think about Italians voting Silvio for so long?
  - bonzini 6y ago
    That if you have two parties both of them are going to get a lot of votes.
    - amelius 6y ago
      You make it sound like a mathematical truth.
      - bonzini 6y ago
        A sad one.
ghego1 6y ago
> This, unfortunately, is the story for every public infrastructure in Italy. Do you have any data to support this argument?
- peach 6y ago
  Quick search for "corruzione opere pubbliche" revealed this article which links to a study... https://www.edilportale.com/news/2020/02/normativa/corruzione-in-italia-un-caso-alla-settimana-lavori-pubblici-in-testa_74700_15.html https://www.edilportale.com/news/2020/02/normativa/corruzion...
- dailygrind___ 6y ago
  There's plenty of books written about this topic. In recent experience, I remember the World Expo Milan fair in 2015, L'Aquila earthquake works, or even the Coronavirus Hospital in Milano - 21 milion euros to host 25 patients - all ended up with arrests due to corruption. In the past the legendary motorway Salerno-Reggio Calabria took decades to complete and was a major attraction for public investment and mafia suppliers. These days, the government is thinking about building a bridge between Calabria and Sicily. This project has been talked about for decades, it's completely useless (I won't go in detail here, but the road network in southern Italy is in a really bad state) and with the upcoming European Union injection of money, it will become the next public work that the mafia will put their hands onto. Looking at the history, it's clear why this project became suddenly important. Looking at the Corruption Perception Index (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index), Italy ranks between Saudi Arabia and Rwanda. In Press Freedom, Italy ranks between Botswana and Senegal. additional source: I'm Italian.
  - lbeltrame 6y ago
    This is different from the recorded cases, after all it's a "perception" index. > In recent experience, I remember the World Expo Milan fair in 2015 I don't think the trials have been finished yet.
    - 6y ago
sildur 6y ago
Also, don’t forget about the corruption. And the environmental protests. And the corruption. The article contained almost more references about corruption and environmental protests than technical info. I don’t know how other places work, but in Europe, big infrastructure projects are almost always mired with corruption. The article read like: “wow, these dumb and greasy Italians finally managed to do something impressive. But they are still corrupt. And their project is not eco friendly. Hah, those Italians...” And I’m not even Italian, but I can smell that snobbism from a mile. Ah, also there was corruption. In Venice.
- baxtr 6y ago
  It’s weird that you didn’t mention the elephant in the room: corruption. Please don’t forget that!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
rayiner 6y ago
This stuff matters. Italy’s GDP per capita is 15% lower today than in 2008. That’s crazy for a developed country. Ours is 33% higher. Germany’s is 43% higher.

lbeltrame 6y ago

> This, unfortunately, is the story for every public infrastructure in Italy. I argue it's not the case. Over-bureaucracy (ironically, to fight "corruption", like the useless "anti-corruption authority") is one of the major reasons things get done at glacial paces (and the same reason sometimes people use "other ways" to speed up things). The replacement of Ponte Morandi in Genova is a prime example of this fact: to rebuild it lots of "rules" had to be suspended.

camillomiller 6y ago
ciao Gigi ;)
throwaways8n27d 6y ago
> Over-bureaucracy (ironically, to fight "corruption", like the useless "anti-corruption authority") is one of the major reasons things get done at glacial paces (and the same reason sometimes people use "other ways" to speed up things). Data in 2018's report "Tempi di realizzazione delle opere pubbliche" [0] seems to contradict this. The 7th post in this [1] twitter thread summarizes it. [0] https://www.agenziacoesione.gov.it/news_istituzionali/tempi-di-realizzazione-delle-opere-pubbliche-online-il-rapporto-2018/ https://www.agenziacoesione.gov.it/news_istituzionali/tempi-... [1] https://twitter.com/CarloStagnaro/status/1280401691997876227 https://twitter.com/CarloStagnaro/status/1280401691997876227 Edit: added post number.
- lbeltrame 6y ago
  The Twitter thread seems to contradict this claim. > Seconda domanda: da cosa dipendono allora le lungaggini, se non dall’affidamento? La risposta è esattamente quella che state pensando: dalla burocrazia. "Second question: what is the cause of slowness, if not when a work is actually given [to whoever got the contract]? The answer is exactly what you're thinking about: bureaucracy." The next few tweets bring data which supports this.
baybal2 6y ago
What do you think about Italians voting Silvio for so long?
- bonzini 6y ago
  That if you have two parties both of them are going to get a lot of votes.
  - amelius 6y ago
    You make it sound like a mathematical truth.
    - bonzini 6y ago
      A sad one.

ghego1 6y ago

> This, unfortunately, is the story for every public infrastructure in Italy. Do you have any data to support this argument?

peach 6y ago
Quick search for "corruzione opere pubbliche" revealed this article which links to a study... https://www.edilportale.com/news/2020/02/normativa/corruzione-in-italia-un-caso-alla-settimana-lavori-pubblici-in-testa_74700_15.html https://www.edilportale.com/news/2020/02/normativa/corruzion...
dailygrind___ 6y ago
There's plenty of books written about this topic. In recent experience, I remember the World Expo Milan fair in 2015, L'Aquila earthquake works, or even the Coronavirus Hospital in Milano - 21 milion euros to host 25 patients - all ended up with arrests due to corruption. In the past the legendary motorway Salerno-Reggio Calabria took decades to complete and was a major attraction for public investment and mafia suppliers. These days, the government is thinking about building a bridge between Calabria and Sicily. This project has been talked about for decades, it's completely useless (I won't go in detail here, but the road network in southern Italy is in a really bad state) and with the upcoming European Union injection of money, it will become the next public work that the mafia will put their hands onto. Looking at the history, it's clear why this project became suddenly important. Looking at the Corruption Perception Index (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index), Italy ranks between Saudi Arabia and Rwanda. In Press Freedom, Italy ranks between Botswana and Senegal. additional source: I'm Italian.
- lbeltrame 6y ago
  This is different from the recorded cases, after all it's a "perception" index. > In recent experience, I remember the World Expo Milan fair in 2015 I don't think the trials have been finished yet.
  - 6y ago

sildur 6y ago

Also, don’t forget about the corruption. And the environmental protests. And the corruption. The article contained almost more references about corruption and environmental protests than technical info. I don’t know how other places work, but in Europe, big infrastructure projects are almost always mired with corruption. The article read like: “wow, these dumb and greasy Italians finally managed to do something impressive. But they are still corrupt. And their project is not eco friendly. Hah, those Italians...” And I’m not even Italian, but I can smell that snobbism from a mile. Ah, also there was corruption. In Venice.

baxtr 6y ago
It’s weird that you didn’t mention the elephant in the room: corruption. Please don’t forget that!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

rayiner 6y ago

This stuff matters. Italy’s GDP per capita is 15% lower today than in 2008. That’s crazy for a developed country. Ours is 33% higher. Germany’s is 43% higher.