5 ms·

Most fights will inevitably go from BVR to WVR-- ECM is continually in a war of escalation with munitions and ECM is almost always ahead.

scarier 6y ago
This is a really interesting topic for debate. Possibly the most recent employment of modern air-to-air tactics we've seen in actual combat was in the early '80s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mole_Cricket_19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mole_Cricket_19). I hope we never have to see an actual large-scale air war between high-end, near-peer competitors, and can continue to armchair debate these kinds of scenarios.
- trhway 6y ago
  Speaking about ECM and the Bekaa battle, a kind of similar situation has just happened in the recent months - Turkey found a way for their drones to effectively attack Russian "Pantsir-S1" anti-aircraft system (details aren't clear, seems that in addition to ECM the drone specific aspects like long loitering waiting for opportunity and simultaneous multiple drone attack from different directions played key role), and around 30 Pantsirs have just been lost in Syria and Libya. (Sidenote: Ukraine has recently got those drones from Turkey and successfully tested against Pantsir - Pantsirs are standard air defense of Russian tank battalions and was the main reason Ukraine, who has nor stealth nor high precision standoff, didn't use the air-to-ground attacks against the Russian tank forces when they ventured into Donbass back then in August 2014 and February 2015)
  - scarier 6y ago
    This is interesting! Do you have any more in-depth articles on it? The Pantsir can be a pretty beastly threat...
    - noir-york 6y ago
      This article has some more information: https://t-intell.com/2020/05/22/lethal-stalkers-how-turkish-drones-are-neutralizing-haftars-pantsirs-in-libya-bda/ https://t-intell.com/2020/05/22/lethal-stalkers-how-turkish-...
  - imtringued 6y ago
    Turkey also lost a lot of their drones. https://lostarmour.info/libya/item.php?id=23673 https://lostarmour.info/libya/item.php?id=23673
    - jacobush 6y ago
      Probably still cheap to replace, and an interesting proof of concept.
- dmix 6y ago
  A video from one of the Isreali pilots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PPpqzhaJIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PPpqzhaJIo
- sandworm101 6y ago
  ECM fights happen every day. Every time a eurofighter flies near a boarder. Every time a russian bomber goes on an overseas trip. Radars are always looking and testing themselves. Jamming of things like GPS is so normal that it is expected on every flight in many areas. Jamming of military radars would be a classified event, but as with submarines, aggression does not require physical violence and so would not always make the news.
Diesel555 6y ago
Yes, and in the WVR fight, doing a trick like that isn't helpful. You kill all your energy. While the nose is moving, your aircraft is still going in a similar plane of motion and has little capability to use the vertical.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Killing all your energy is worth it if you get even one missile off and on target.
  - Diesel555 6y ago
    I mean if you have no other choice but to die. Flying a good gameplan to put yourself in a position of advantage is the normal gameplan. But sure, having this trick after you've messed it up is nice to have.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Not necessarily. There are conceivable situations where supermaneuvrability can turn a situation where an enemy is on your tail and has a lock onto a situation where you fired a missile at them and you're safe. But yes, it's not the normal game plan. The normal gameplan is very likely to degenerate into such situations, though.
      - heavenlyblue 6y ago
        You only need that if your missiles are dumb enough to not be programmable for more complex than simple following paths. It’s much safer to teach your missiles to do the manoeuvre instead of making the plane do it first.
        formerly_proven 6y ago
        > It’s much safer to teach your missiles to do the manoeuvre instead of making the plane do it first. Indeed modern air-to-air missiles can do this and much more. They can be launched and lock on after the launch and have full-sphere attack capability (unlike earlier missiles, which even in a high off-boresight scenario would still require the launching aircraft to be behind the target).

scarier 6y ago

This is a really interesting topic for debate. Possibly the most recent employment of modern air-to-air tactics we've seen in actual combat was in the early '80s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mole_Cricket_19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mole_Cricket_19). I hope we never have to see an actual large-scale air war between high-end, near-peer competitors, and can continue to armchair debate these kinds of scenarios.

trhway 6y ago
Speaking about ECM and the Bekaa battle, a kind of similar situation has just happened in the recent months - Turkey found a way for their drones to effectively attack Russian "Pantsir-S1" anti-aircraft system (details aren't clear, seems that in addition to ECM the drone specific aspects like long loitering waiting for opportunity and simultaneous multiple drone attack from different directions played key role), and around 30 Pantsirs have just been lost in Syria and Libya. (Sidenote: Ukraine has recently got those drones from Turkey and successfully tested against Pantsir - Pantsirs are standard air defense of Russian tank battalions and was the main reason Ukraine, who has nor stealth nor high precision standoff, didn't use the air-to-ground attacks against the Russian tank forces when they ventured into Donbass back then in August 2014 and February 2015)
- scarier 6y ago
  This is interesting! Do you have any more in-depth articles on it? The Pantsir can be a pretty beastly threat...
  - noir-york 6y ago
    This article has some more information: https://t-intell.com/2020/05/22/lethal-stalkers-how-turkish-drones-are-neutralizing-haftars-pantsirs-in-libya-bda/ https://t-intell.com/2020/05/22/lethal-stalkers-how-turkish-...
- imtringued 6y ago
  Turkey also lost a lot of their drones. https://lostarmour.info/libya/item.php?id=23673 https://lostarmour.info/libya/item.php?id=23673
  - jacobush 6y ago
    Probably still cheap to replace, and an interesting proof of concept.
dmix 6y ago
A video from one of the Isreali pilots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PPpqzhaJIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PPpqzhaJIo
sandworm101 6y ago
ECM fights happen every day. Every time a eurofighter flies near a boarder. Every time a russian bomber goes on an overseas trip. Radars are always looking and testing themselves. Jamming of things like GPS is so normal that it is expected on every flight in many areas. Jamming of military radars would be a classified event, but as with submarines, aggression does not require physical violence and so would not always make the news.

Diesel555 6y ago

Yes, and in the WVR fight, doing a trick like that isn't helpful. You kill all your energy. While the nose is moving, your aircraft is still going in a similar plane of motion and has little capability to use the vertical.

sudosysgen 6y ago
Killing all your energy is worth it if you get even one missile off and on target.
- Diesel555 6y ago
  I mean if you have no other choice but to die. Flying a good gameplan to put yourself in a position of advantage is the normal gameplan. But sure, having this trick after you've messed it up is nice to have.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Not necessarily. There are conceivable situations where supermaneuvrability can turn a situation where an enemy is on your tail and has a lock onto a situation where you fired a missile at them and you're safe. But yes, it's not the normal game plan. The normal gameplan is very likely to degenerate into such situations, though.
    - heavenlyblue 6y ago
      You only need that if your missiles are dumb enough to not be programmable for more complex than simple following paths. It’s much safer to teach your missiles to do the manoeuvre instead of making the plane do it first.
      - formerly_proven 6y ago
        > It’s much safer to teach your missiles to do the manoeuvre instead of making the plane do it first. Indeed modern air-to-air missiles can do this and much more. They can be launched and lock on after the launch and have full-sphere attack capability (unlike earlier missiles, which even in a high off-boresight scenario would still require the launching aircraft to be behind the target).