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Both Paul Graham and Wumi are off the mark. You see, unpopular people are people who have not learned to play the game successfully. There are two competitions

Both Paul Graham and Wumi are off the mark. You see, unpopular people are people who have not learned to play the game successfully. There are two competitions going on in schools: 1. Be as good as you can be socially 2. Be as good as you can be regarding intellectual development Every student will want to have the maximum of both those things, but the problem is that most people tend to choose one path and then work to excel at it. The most popular kids are as likely to be just as successful as the most intelligent nerds. It takes a bit of skill from the other branch to land at the top of either branch, and so those at the top will usually be successful people. The problem is that these two branches seem to be exclusive. To be intellectually at the top, you have to forgo a lot of the social activities that allow you develop the necessary skills to get to the top of social ladder. And to be socially at the top, you lack the time to study, so you fall behind intellectually. This is not about school in general - it's about life. To develop a skill, you need to focus on the skill, and your social life drops correspondingly. But there is this middle ground. The people who know how to strike that balance between the two paths. The ones who are aware of the social hierarchies, and who make sure they do not drop in value socially. The popular kids who spend enough time studying, that their scores still remain good enough for them to do what they want to do. There are a LOT of people who belong to that middle ground. But you know what, they don't write articles on the internet, because they have nothing to complain about! They liked high school and ended up doing well there. A lot of them are doing way better than the nerds who complain about how unpopular they were. High school was your first taste of business. In business you need to develop your product, but you also need to make your sales. You cannot concentrate on one exclusively and leave the other away. Both require equal time and are equally important. That's what these nerds don't recognize. They think there is some conspiracy against them - no, you just did not understand the system well enough to play it properly. If you went back in time now, would you not be able to do it better?

jey 18y ago
I don't see how you're disagreeing with pg (and I haven't read wumi's post). IIRC, Paul's essay also makes the argument that nerds would rather pursue their nerdy interests rather than abandon them in favor of investing more time/energy in being popular. I don't think nerds wish they were popular, they just wish everyone would leave them alone instead of hating and hassling them. Sure, they may wonder why they're unpopular, but once they understand that it's a tradeoff between nerdiness and popularity, they'd rather keep the nerdy interests. The painful part is that they might not come to understand this tradeoff until long after HS.
wumi 18y ago
I'm not sure where my post would lead you to suggest that there is no middle ground. In fact I mention that (partially) by virtue of being a good athlete, I happened to garner a fair amount of popularity. In fact, from your comments I'm not sure if you read what I wrote at all. Really, if you've been to public high school in America (or, as I noted, several other countries), popularity is derived mostly from good looks/general attractiveness, athletic prowess, or popularity by association (whether your siblings or your best friends). (edit: for blacks, this could and does include an affinity for hip-hop culture -- dancing, rapping, beat boxin, etc., and by good looks/attractiveness, per the article, I am inferring general outward appearance, i.e. clothes, shoes, fitted caps, etc.) There's nothing to game about the system, if you're attractive, a great athlete, or have really popular friends, you in turn, will be popular. I was at least one of those three things. If you're not one of those three things, it's highly unlikely that you are (or were) very popular. You're really just painting a broad brush when you say 'that's what these nerds don't recognize ...you just did not understand the system well enough to play it properly.' Really? There's not a conspiracy at all -- in black culture, especially amongst the youth of today, intelligence is most often looked down upon and something generally avoided, to which much of what I wrote concerned. I think you're confusing my reflection for complaints. (edit: I realize now you're just making a broad swipe at all nerd culture, apparently, and not actually rebutting my writing.)
- maxklein 18y ago
  Does your name not usually have an n in it? And is it not usually a girls name? I read your article to the end. This black culture looking down on intelligence thing is not new or insightful. I've read about that lots of time on the internet. Black culture does not look down on intelligence. It looks down on nerdiness. Let's imagine there is some really cool black guy - let's say the 50 cent of your high school. He does all the 'in' things and wears the right shoes etc. He also is consistently the best in the class. NOBODY would look down on him, rather, he'd be regarded with extreme awe. He'd be monster cool, and still effortlessly ace all exams. Looking good is an easy way to be popular, but there are lots of terrible looking gangster like figures who are quite popular in high schools. Being popular is about standing out in a manner that makes people want to follow you. There are many ways to do so, and each of those ways can be artificially created. It's no god given thing. I don't get what you're trying to say in your last sentence, but I never implied that pg was some superdork.
deleted 18y ago
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zasz 18y ago
I went to a fairly atypical school district in Silicon Valley where you didn't have bullies beating kids up, so I probably can't understand what everyone else is talking about. In my experience, however, you only got shunned and had severe unpopularity if you were lacking in fairly basic social skills--like, say, not throwing a tantrum after turning six. To me, it seemed like being average and sort of blending in by not doing anything too socially awkward was enough to avoid getting picked on. I don't think basic social skills are that hard to pick up for most people, and you don't need to sacrifice being smart to have the basics of not being awkward. Does anyone have any comments?
- rms 18y ago
  Are you younger? I graduated high school in 2004 and it was a lot better than suburban high school in the past. This was at a reasonably wealthy, mostly white suburban high school near Pittsburgh (two turnpike exits from Paul Graham's high school, which was Pittsburgh's first uber-developed suburb, Monroeville). At my high school, the people who had in middle school been popular, had mostly gotten into hard drugs and been shunned by everyone else, though these people never realized they weren't popular anymore. The football players that weren't into hard drugs were all nice enough. The cheerleaders were mostly ugly. No one was really picked on, though there were three or for kids without physical or mental disabilities that sat with the kids with physical and mental disabilities at lunch. I was never popular but my senior year I became good friends with the class president, who played drums in the marching band with me. He was the most popular person in my high school and he was a rare geek with a great deal of social intelligence.
  - zasz 18y ago
    Yes, class of 2005. Most people in Palo Alto are pretty gung-ho about sending their babies off to a Top 20 college, so being smart got you respect. The only people I could think of who I would consider ostracized in school were those who were incredibly annoying or awkward to be around, i.e. it was a matter of social skills, not being smart. I do realize I went to an atypical high school, but if you're socially incompetent, you may not recognize that your social problems arise from your social incompetence. That's why I'm a little suspicious of pg when he claims that he's seen both sides of the popularity scale and that he now knows the magic formulas to apply if he had to travel back in time.
jimbokun 18y ago
Echoing jey, I don't see anything in what you are saying that contradicts pg or Wumi. I think pg was pretty clear that there is a continuum of popularity, and nerds are at one of the extreme points on that scale. "If you went back in time now, would you not be able to do it better?" In some ways, probably not. I just wouldn't be as stressed about it. I still really don't have much in common with the people with whom I went to high school, and I still don't think it would be worth sacrificing any of the things I enjoy and that have led me to the life I have now (imperfect as it is) in order to get the kids I went to high school with to like me more.

jey 18y ago

I don't see how you're disagreeing with pg (and I haven't read wumi's post). IIRC, Paul's essay also makes the argument that nerds would rather pursue their nerdy interests rather than abandon them in favor of investing more time/energy in being popular. I don't think nerds wish they were popular, they just wish everyone would leave them alone instead of hating and hassling them. Sure, they may wonder why they're unpopular, but once they understand that it's a tradeoff between nerdiness and popularity, they'd rather keep the nerdy interests. The painful part is that they might not come to understand this tradeoff until long after HS.

wumi 18y ago

I'm not sure where my post would lead you to suggest that there is no middle ground. In fact I mention that (partially) by virtue of being a good athlete, I happened to garner a fair amount of popularity. In fact, from your comments I'm not sure if you read what I wrote at all. Really, if you've been to public high school in America (or, as I noted, several other countries), popularity is derived mostly from good looks/general attractiveness, athletic prowess, or popularity by association (whether your siblings or your best friends). (edit: for blacks, this could and does include an affinity for hip-hop culture -- dancing, rapping, beat boxin, etc., and by good looks/attractiveness, per the article, I am inferring general outward appearance, i.e. clothes, shoes, fitted caps, etc.) There's nothing to game about the system, if you're attractive, a great athlete, or have really popular friends, you in turn, will be popular. I was at least one of those three things. If you're not one of those three things, it's highly unlikely that you are (or were) very popular. You're really just painting a broad brush when you say 'that's what these nerds don't recognize ...you just did not understand the system well enough to play it properly.' Really? There's not a conspiracy at all -- in black culture, especially amongst the youth of today, intelligence is most often looked down upon and something generally avoided, to which much of what I wrote concerned. I think you're confusing my reflection for complaints. (edit: I realize now you're just making a broad swipe at all nerd culture, apparently, and not actually rebutting my writing.)

maxklein 18y ago
Does your name not usually have an n in it? And is it not usually a girls name? I read your article to the end. This black culture looking down on intelligence thing is not new or insightful. I've read about that lots of time on the internet. Black culture does not look down on intelligence. It looks down on nerdiness. Let's imagine there is some really cool black guy - let's say the 50 cent of your high school. He does all the 'in' things and wears the right shoes etc. He also is consistently the best in the class. NOBODY would look down on him, rather, he'd be regarded with extreme awe. He'd be monster cool, and still effortlessly ace all exams. Looking good is an easy way to be popular, but there are lots of terrible looking gangster like figures who are quite popular in high schools. Being popular is about standing out in a manner that makes people want to follow you. There are many ways to do so, and each of those ways can be artificially created. It's no god given thing. I don't get what you're trying to say in your last sentence, but I never implied that pg was some superdork.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

zasz 18y ago

I went to a fairly atypical school district in Silicon Valley where you didn't have bullies beating kids up, so I probably can't understand what everyone else is talking about. In my experience, however, you only got shunned and had severe unpopularity if you were lacking in fairly basic social skills--like, say, not throwing a tantrum after turning six. To me, it seemed like being average and sort of blending in by not doing anything too socially awkward was enough to avoid getting picked on. I don't think basic social skills are that hard to pick up for most people, and you don't need to sacrifice being smart to have the basics of not being awkward. Does anyone have any comments?

rms 18y ago
Are you younger? I graduated high school in 2004 and it was a lot better than suburban high school in the past. This was at a reasonably wealthy, mostly white suburban high school near Pittsburgh (two turnpike exits from Paul Graham's high school, which was Pittsburgh's first uber-developed suburb, Monroeville). At my high school, the people who had in middle school been popular, had mostly gotten into hard drugs and been shunned by everyone else, though these people never realized they weren't popular anymore. The football players that weren't into hard drugs were all nice enough. The cheerleaders were mostly ugly. No one was really picked on, though there were three or for kids without physical or mental disabilities that sat with the kids with physical and mental disabilities at lunch. I was never popular but my senior year I became good friends with the class president, who played drums in the marching band with me. He was the most popular person in my high school and he was a rare geek with a great deal of social intelligence.
- zasz 18y ago
  Yes, class of 2005. Most people in Palo Alto are pretty gung-ho about sending their babies off to a Top 20 college, so being smart got you respect. The only people I could think of who I would consider ostracized in school were those who were incredibly annoying or awkward to be around, i.e. it was a matter of social skills, not being smart. I do realize I went to an atypical high school, but if you're socially incompetent, you may not recognize that your social problems arise from your social incompetence. That's why I'm a little suspicious of pg when he claims that he's seen both sides of the popularity scale and that he now knows the magic formulas to apply if he had to travel back in time.

jimbokun 18y ago

Echoing jey, I don't see anything in what you are saying that contradicts pg or Wumi. I think pg was pretty clear that there is a continuum of popularity, and nerds are at one of the extreme points on that scale. "If you went back in time now, would you not be able to do it better?" In some ways, probably not. I just wouldn't be as stressed about it. I still really don't have much in common with the people with whom I went to high school, and I still don't think it would be worth sacrificing any of the things I enjoy and that have led me to the life I have now (imperfect as it is) in order to get the kids I went to high school with to like me more.