7 ms·

I'm curious, do others perceive undeserved upvotes as an issue? As far as communities like this go, I think HN is pretty fair about what kind of content is valu

by andykx 6y ago

I'm curious, do others perceive undeserved upvotes as an issue? As far as communities like this go, I think HN is pretty fair about what kind of content is valuable. Sure, maybe some high-quality niche articles don't get a ton of attention, but that's the nature of writing about niche topics.

brianyu8 6y ago
For me, the problem was more that the highly upvoted posts were obviously good, so my time and attention were spent scrolling through HN looking for posts with more than ~50 upvotes or more than 10 comments. After hiding upvote and comment counts, I've found myself reading more of those high-quality niche articles that I wouldn't have clicked on previously. I've also found myself reading post titles more thoroughly and reading articles first instead of immediately jumping into the comment section to get summary/judgement. Perhaps this extension is unnecessary if you have more self control that I do ;).
- polote 6y ago
  > After hiding upvote and comment counts, I've found myself reading more of those high-quality niche articles that I wouldn't have clicked on previously. That's also the reason I create a newsletter to list all the creative content of the day which didn't get visibility https://hnblogs.substack.com/ https://hnblogs.substack.com/
ardy42 6y ago
> I'm curious, do others perceive undeserved upvotes as an issue? As far as communities like this go, I think HN is pretty fair about what kind of content is valuable. I've used a similar extension on another forum, and the issue it addressed for me was that 1) upvotes aren't worth reacting to (for several different reasons) 2) it's hard to not react to them in some way if you see them. If you believe the first point, hiding them completely is simply the best solution. As for why they're not worth reacting to. People have already mentioned they cause people to focus on what's already popular. They can also create feelings of inclusion/exclusion that lead to hive-minds, and mildly addictive slot-machine-like reinforcement (which people have extensively discussed in relation to Facebook likes).
unclebucknasty 6y ago
I believe downvoting is a far bigger problem. The term "undeserved downvote" can't even exist, as the guidelines state that downvoting for mere disagreement is acceptable. But, what is that if not censorship and promoting groupthink? If one disagrees, then why not encourage them to engage and explain vs submarining the comment with which they disagree? And, if content is unacceptable for some other reason, then flagging is still available.
- twblalock 6y ago
  People will downvote for disagreement whether or not the guidelines say it is ok. The guidelines are simply recognizing reality.
  - unclebucknasty 6y ago
    There's an easy fix for that: abolish downvotes.
    - asjw 6y ago
      That's actually a great idea! I would also abolish votes in general and only sort comments chronologically. users could vote and see the posts/comments ordered by their votes that would not be public The "first" kind of comments are easy to detect, so I think they wouldn't be a big problem The chances that a post written later in the game will become one of the most voted because it's really a good comment are close to none anyway Another interesting feature would be highlight and prioritize content written by users you follow, based on some simple rule like how many votes you gave them before or how many interactions you already had in the past But downvotes are a prize and a status, you have to reach a certain amount of karma points to be able to downvote something so I guess unfortunately they are here to stay
      - encom 6y ago
        >I would also abolish votes in general and only sort comments chronologically. Congratulations, you invented Usenet. :) Back in the day we didn't have voting, we had kill filters. If you didn't like another user, you'd have your reader filter out their messages. There were far fewer kids on my lawn in those days as well.
ratsmack 6y ago
I have a problem with people down voting things that they disagree with and up voting things they agree with. I had always assumed that voting was for "quality of post" and not for agreement. I see this same scenario played out in many forums where a very good, high quality comment is made which quotes what "someone" said and subsequently heavily down voted because of the person that said it. In other words, the message is quashed because of the person that said it, and not because of the message itself... this is a sad testament to online dialogue.
- dvtrn 6y ago
  Apparently that’s their intended function according to mods[0] I just prefer downvoted comments don’t turn grey just because some may disagree with it, it’s an annoying UX personally, as I’ve actually found some interesting information I hadn’t previously been exposed to from comments a few people decided they disagreed with. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17996858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17996858
  - ratsmack 6y ago
    I have a problem with the greyed out posts because they are difficult to read with my poor eyesight. I usually select them with the mouse so they are highlighted, which makes them easier to read.
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      That's interesting never thought about the accessibility problem with greyed out posts.
    - dvtrn 6y ago
      Yup. This is my precise annoyance with the styling. I understand not everyone will bother to read greyed out comments because they trust the wisdom of the crowd here. I do not. As a result, reading the comments adds one extra step now just to interact and engage. Thankfully someone below our published some userstyles below.
    - 6y ago
johnchristopher 6y ago
I believe HN is sometimes lacking profile/metadata information about posters (eg: occupation, age, location) that would prevent re-explaining the same things over and over again or see where the person is coming from. But then it introduces some biases so... shrug
Zenst 6y ago
Maybe, but perhaps the same could be said for downvotes. What would be interesting is if up/down votes had a weighting based upon engagement upon that post/thread. For example if somebody comments on that post/thread then their vote up or down would hold more value than somebody who had not commented. Unsure how that would play out, but certainly be interesting. Sadly their maybe a downside I can think of and that would be that it may encourage more fluff comments, just to garner that extra clout.
- egypturnash 6y ago
  I immediately think of the comment pattern where one person says something patently wrong; when people start replying with corrections/denials/expert explanations drawing from 20y of that specific problem/etc, they dig in and start insisting they're right. High engagement can show the opposite of worth. Active moderation somewhat suppresses this pattern but it still happens.

by andykx 6y ago

brianyu8 6y ago

For me, the problem was more that the highly upvoted posts were obviously good, so my time and attention were spent scrolling through HN looking for posts with more than ~50 upvotes or more than 10 comments. After hiding upvote and comment counts, I've found myself reading more of those high-quality niche articles that I wouldn't have clicked on previously. I've also found myself reading post titles more thoroughly and reading articles first instead of immediately jumping into the comment section to get summary/judgement. Perhaps this extension is unnecessary if you have more self control that I do ;).

polote 6y ago
> After hiding upvote and comment counts, I've found myself reading more of those high-quality niche articles that I wouldn't have clicked on previously. That's also the reason I create a newsletter to list all the creative content of the day which didn't get visibility https://hnblogs.substack.com/ https://hnblogs.substack.com/

ardy42 6y ago

> I'm curious, do others perceive undeserved upvotes as an issue? As far as communities like this go, I think HN is pretty fair about what kind of content is valuable. I've used a similar extension on another forum, and the issue it addressed for me was that 1) upvotes aren't worth reacting to (for several different reasons) 2) it's hard to not react to them in some way if you see them. If you believe the first point, hiding them completely is simply the best solution. As for why they're not worth reacting to. People have already mentioned they cause people to focus on what's already popular. They can also create feelings of inclusion/exclusion that lead to hive-minds, and mildly addictive slot-machine-like reinforcement (which people have extensively discussed in relation to Facebook likes).

unclebucknasty 6y ago

I believe downvoting is a far bigger problem. The term "undeserved downvote" can't even exist, as the guidelines state that downvoting for mere disagreement is acceptable. But, what is that if not censorship and promoting groupthink? If one disagrees, then why not encourage them to engage and explain vs submarining the comment with which they disagree? And, if content is unacceptable for some other reason, then flagging is still available.

twblalock 6y ago
People will downvote for disagreement whether or not the guidelines say it is ok. The guidelines are simply recognizing reality.
- unclebucknasty 6y ago
  There's an easy fix for that: abolish downvotes.
  - asjw 6y ago
    That's actually a great idea! I would also abolish votes in general and only sort comments chronologically. users could vote and see the posts/comments ordered by their votes that would not be public The "first" kind of comments are easy to detect, so I think they wouldn't be a big problem The chances that a post written later in the game will become one of the most voted because it's really a good comment are close to none anyway Another interesting feature would be highlight and prioritize content written by users you follow, based on some simple rule like how many votes you gave them before or how many interactions you already had in the past But downvotes are a prize and a status, you have to reach a certain amount of karma points to be able to downvote something so I guess unfortunately they are here to stay
    - encom 6y ago
      >I would also abolish votes in general and only sort comments chronologically. Congratulations, you invented Usenet. :) Back in the day we didn't have voting, we had kill filters. If you didn't like another user, you'd have your reader filter out their messages. There were far fewer kids on my lawn in those days as well.

ratsmack 6y ago

I have a problem with people down voting things that they disagree with and up voting things they agree with. I had always assumed that voting was for "quality of post" and not for agreement. I see this same scenario played out in many forums where a very good, high quality comment is made which quotes what "someone" said and subsequently heavily down voted because of the person that said it. In other words, the message is quashed because of the person that said it, and not because of the message itself... this is a sad testament to online dialogue.

dvtrn 6y ago
Apparently that’s their intended function according to mods[0] I just prefer downvoted comments don’t turn grey just because some may disagree with it, it’s an annoying UX personally, as I’ve actually found some interesting information I hadn’t previously been exposed to from comments a few people decided they disagreed with. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17996858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17996858
- ratsmack 6y ago
  I have a problem with the greyed out posts because they are difficult to read with my poor eyesight. I usually select them with the mouse so they are highlighted, which makes them easier to read.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    That's interesting never thought about the accessibility problem with greyed out posts.
  - dvtrn 6y ago
    Yup. This is my precise annoyance with the styling. I understand not everyone will bother to read greyed out comments because they trust the wisdom of the crowd here. I do not. As a result, reading the comments adds one extra step now just to interact and engage. Thankfully someone below our published some userstyles below.
  - 6y ago

johnchristopher 6y ago

I believe HN is sometimes lacking profile/metadata information about posters (eg: occupation, age, location) that would prevent re-explaining the same things over and over again or see where the person is coming from. But then it introduces some biases so... shrug

Zenst 6y ago

Maybe, but perhaps the same could be said for downvotes. What would be interesting is if up/down votes had a weighting based upon engagement upon that post/thread. For example if somebody comments on that post/thread then their vote up or down would hold more value than somebody who had not commented. Unsure how that would play out, but certainly be interesting. Sadly their maybe a downside I can think of and that would be that it may encourage more fluff comments, just to garner that extra clout.

egypturnash 6y ago
I immediately think of the comment pattern where one person says something patently wrong; when people start replying with corrections/denials/expert explanations drawing from 20y of that specific problem/etc, they dig in and start insisting they're right. High engagement can show the opposite of worth. Active moderation somewhat suppresses this pattern but it still happens.