5 ms·

More sensationalism - this is possible anytime an illness causes fever, COVID isn’t special in this regard at all

by jjcon 6y ago

Frost1x 6y ago
I guess COVID is special in the fact that COVID is widespread and causes high fever in a significant number of symptomatic individuals. The flu also commonly causes high fevers, however, it isn't spreading at the rate COVID is, so ultimately, due to the widespread nature of COVID, it seems reasonable to link these two concerns. An underlying recent theme has been to consider long term consequences this disease may have on societies across the world due to its scale, as well as those individuals health. We're going to have a lot more people seriously ill than we typically do with previously known infections and diseases and that will have notable impacts. From the article: >“My worry is that we have millions of people with COVID-19 now. And if in a year’s time we have 10 million recovered people, and those people have cognitive deficits ... then that’s going to affect their ability to work and their ability to go about activities of daily living,” Adrian Owen, a neuroscientist at Western University in Canada, told Reuters in an interview. We see what the short term consequences are, now we should also consider potential long term consequences of this very widespread disease.
- voisin 6y ago
  We can’t even agree to take the steps to solve the problem in the short term that is staring us in the face. What are the odds that talking about probabilities of long term issues will suddenly motivate people (or, more importantly, the levels of government) to make the right decisions?
  - katbyte 6y ago
    Speak for your own country - many others agree and are doing quite well in the face of this pandemic.
  - Frost1x 6y ago
    Fully agree however the fundamental science shouldn't be concerned with the fact many are ignoring science. It's science's job to do the best it can to discover the facts which provide the fundamental information needed for useful actionable changes. Someone still needs to develop actionable policy based on that information, and then we have to decide as a society which actions we want to take. Various scientists have provided short term control solutions and are working on even more of them. We've seen those solutions around the world effectively curbing the spread. Different socieities and their governments have chosen what to do or not do with that information, and now you see the results across the world, depending on what people chose to do with that information. If we understand long term implications as well as short term, this provides even more information to make useful actionable policy decisions.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  >From the article: Why is Reuters interviewing a neuroscientist from Western University in Canada about a study done at University College London? It's telling that the part you picked out comes from someone completely unrelated to the research.
  - jacques_chester 6y ago
    It is common to get an external expert, or several, to comment on a story about science (or economics, criminology, accounting, farming, weather, software ... anything). The subject is neurology, the interviewee is a neuroscientist, and so is probably more qualified to opine than you or I or the Reuters journalist who submitted copy.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      First, they seemed to have interviewed some members of the research team to make the piece. If you want someone qualified to comment, they are the best choice. Further, the interviewee is a neuroscientist, but we have no idea why they were picked to comment, how deeply he's analyzed the research, what the context was that led to that quote, or how long Reuters spent talking to neuroscientists to get that quote.
moron4hire 6y ago
I don't expect that it is well-known that high fever can cause brain damage in the general public. Also, from the things I've read, the concern is that there seems to be a higher rate of cognitive impairment than one should expect for the fevers people are getting with COVID-19.
fzeroracer 6y ago
This is simply objectively false and sensationalism of its own accord. Brain damage isn't possible 'anytime an illness causes fever'. You have to have an incredibly high fever which is very, very rare even in cases of the flu. What exactly is your goal here spreading objective falsehoods?
AnthonBerg 6y ago
The paper is a scientific investigation into how COVID-19 is different. Here’s the paper the article refers to: https://doi.org/10.1093/brain/awaa240 https://doi.org/10.1093/brain/awaa240 There are numerous other findings in scientific literature that indicate that COVID-19 impacts the nervous system. As one example, the loss of the sense of smell is likely neurogenic.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- irq11 6y ago
  No, the paper is a list of brain illnesses observed in a small group of patients who were also found to have covid. The paper makes no attempt to draw a causative link between covid and the cited illnesses, nor could it, with a sample of less than 50. Rare illnesses happen. Sometimes, they will happen in people with covid. Jumping to the conclusion that Y happened after X, therefore X caused Y, is the post hoc fallacy. This is the paper being discussed by the article, and underscores the degree to which reporting on this subject has left rationality and science behind.
  - jacques_chester 6y ago
    Effect size matters.
    - irq11 6y ago
      Yes, what’s your point? There is no “effect size” here, because the sample pool is biased. This isn’t a case control study. A group of doctors said they saw patients with X and Y, and that Y is somewhat rare. At best, this is suggestive that a proper study is required — which is exactly what they say when quoted in the reuters story.
  - AnthonBerg 6y ago
    Please state clearly which parts of the term “a scientific investigation into how COVID-19 is different” you claim to not hold.
hello_1234 6y ago
Why are people like this guy casually dismissing research done by other experts? Why do people think they are experts in matters they have absolutely no clue about? Just because you know how to write code to build a webapp doesn't make you an expert in COVID. The whole COVID issue is exacerbated by politicians and psuedo-experts (like the commenter above) who think they know it all.
- cortesoft 6y ago
  Because there is a strong incentive to want to think this is not so bad and we can continue as normal.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  It's not a dismissal. The headline makes it sound like (and a lot of people here seem to have concluded) that atypical COVID-linked brain damage definitely exists. But that's not what the researchers said. They said there might be, and it'd be bad if there were, so they want to do more research to figure out whether there is or not. A position that there's probably not doesn't contradict these researchers.
bryanlarsen 6y ago
But it's much more possible in a vascular disease like COVID-19.
- goalieca 6y ago
  COVID is a respiratory disease.
  - lmeyerov 6y ago
    Both -- Google the hospital patient studies on how it can impact blood vessels in lungs and elsewhere as it progresses. That kind of surprise is taking awhile to understand, which is the broader point here, and 'not just the flu'.
    - goalieca 6y ago
      It is a respiratory disease. I think the real news here is that the internet is learning about viruses for the first time. The problem with this drip feed of shitposts on reddit and science articles in the news is that we end up with a very poor understanding and complete lack of context. The flu can attack the heart like many other viruses. Measles can cause immune system amnesia. RSV can cause inflammation in the middle ear. Chicken pox multiplies in the lung but hides in your nervous system until it comes out as shingles decades later. Pick any virus and you’ll learn of some crazy potential complications.
throwaway5752 6y ago
Do you have any data on incidence rates of neurological side effects in covid compared to influenza, for example?

More sensationalism - this is possible anytime an illness causes fever, COVID isn’t special in this regard at all

by jjcon 6y ago

More sensationalism - this is possible anytime an illness causes fever, COVID isn’t special in this regard at all

I guess COVID is special in the fact that COVID is widespread and causes high fever in a significant number of symptomatic individuals. The flu also commonly causes high fevers, however, it isn't spreading at the rate COVID is, so ultimately, due to the widespread nature of COVID, it seems reasonable to link these two concerns. An underlying recent theme has been to consider long term consequences this disease may have on societies across the world due to its scale, as well as those individuals health. We're going to have a lot more people seriously ill than we typically do with previously known infections and diseases and that will have notable impacts. From the article: >“My worry is that we have millions of people with COVID-19 now. And if in a year’s time we have 10 million recovered people, and those people have cognitive deficits ... then that’s going to affect their ability to work and their ability to go about activities of daily living,” Adrian Owen, a neuroscientist at Western University in Canada, told Reuters in an interview. We see what the short term consequences are, now we should also consider potential long term consequences of this very widespread disease.

voisin 6y ago
We can’t even agree to take the steps to solve the problem in the short term that is staring us in the face. What are the odds that talking about probabilities of long term issues will suddenly motivate people (or, more importantly, the levels of government) to make the right decisions?
- katbyte 6y ago
  Speak for your own country - many others agree and are doing quite well in the face of this pandemic.
- Frost1x 6y ago
  Fully agree however the fundamental science shouldn't be concerned with the fact many are ignoring science. It's science's job to do the best it can to discover the facts which provide the fundamental information needed for useful actionable changes. Someone still needs to develop actionable policy based on that information, and then we have to decide as a society which actions we want to take. Various scientists have provided short term control solutions and are working on even more of them. We've seen those solutions around the world effectively curbing the spread. Different socieities and their governments have chosen what to do or not do with that information, and now you see the results across the world, depending on what people chose to do with that information. If we understand long term implications as well as short term, this provides even more information to make useful actionable policy decisions.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
>From the article: Why is Reuters interviewing a neuroscientist from Western University in Canada about a study done at University College London? It's telling that the part you picked out comes from someone completely unrelated to the research.
- jacques_chester 6y ago
  It is common to get an external expert, or several, to comment on a story about science (or economics, criminology, accounting, farming, weather, software ... anything). The subject is neurology, the interviewee is a neuroscientist, and so is probably more qualified to opine than you or I or the Reuters journalist who submitted copy.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    First, they seemed to have interviewed some members of the research team to make the piece. If you want someone qualified to comment, they are the best choice. Further, the interviewee is a neuroscientist, but we have no idea why they were picked to comment, how deeply he's analyzed the research, what the context was that led to that quote, or how long Reuters spent talking to neuroscientists to get that quote.

moron4hire 6y ago

I don't expect that it is well-known that high fever can cause brain damage in the general public. Also, from the things I've read, the concern is that there seems to be a higher rate of cognitive impairment than one should expect for the fevers people are getting with COVID-19.

fzeroracer 6y ago

This is simply objectively false and sensationalism of its own accord. Brain damage isn't possible 'anytime an illness causes fever'. You have to have an incredibly high fever which is very, very rare even in cases of the flu. What exactly is your goal here spreading objective falsehoods?

AnthonBerg 6y ago

The paper is a scientific investigation into how COVID-19 is different. Here’s the paper the article refers to: https://doi.org/10.1093/brain/awaa240 https://doi.org/10.1093/brain/awaa240 There are numerous other findings in scientific literature that indicate that COVID-19 impacts the nervous system. As one example, the loss of the sense of smell is likely neurogenic.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
irq11 6y ago
No, the paper is a list of brain illnesses observed in a small group of patients who were also found to have covid. The paper makes no attempt to draw a causative link between covid and the cited illnesses, nor could it, with a sample of less than 50. Rare illnesses happen. Sometimes, they will happen in people with covid. Jumping to the conclusion that Y happened after X, therefore X caused Y, is the post hoc fallacy. This is the paper being discussed by the article, and underscores the degree to which reporting on this subject has left rationality and science behind.
- jacques_chester 6y ago
  Effect size matters.
  - irq11 6y ago
    Yes, what’s your point? There is no “effect size” here, because the sample pool is biased. This isn’t a case control study. A group of doctors said they saw patients with X and Y, and that Y is somewhat rare. At best, this is suggestive that a proper study is required — which is exactly what they say when quoted in the reuters story.
- AnthonBerg 6y ago
  Please state clearly which parts of the term “a scientific investigation into how COVID-19 is different” you claim to not hold.

hello_1234 6y ago

Why are people like this guy casually dismissing research done by other experts? Why do people think they are experts in matters they have absolutely no clue about? Just because you know how to write code to build a webapp doesn't make you an expert in COVID. The whole COVID issue is exacerbated by politicians and psuedo-experts (like the commenter above) who think they know it all.

cortesoft 6y ago
Because there is a strong incentive to want to think this is not so bad and we can continue as normal.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
It's not a dismissal. The headline makes it sound like (and a lot of people here seem to have concluded) that atypical COVID-linked brain damage definitely exists. But that's not what the researchers said. They said there might be, and it'd be bad if there were, so they want to do more research to figure out whether there is or not. A position that there's probably not doesn't contradict these researchers.

bryanlarsen 6y ago

But it's much more possible in a vascular disease like COVID-19.

goalieca 6y ago
COVID is a respiratory disease.
- lmeyerov 6y ago
  Both -- Google the hospital patient studies on how it can impact blood vessels in lungs and elsewhere as it progresses. That kind of surprise is taking awhile to understand, which is the broader point here, and 'not just the flu'.
  - goalieca 6y ago
    It is a respiratory disease. I think the real news here is that the internet is learning about viruses for the first time. The problem with this drip feed of shitposts on reddit and science articles in the news is that we end up with a very poor understanding and complete lack of context. The flu can attack the heart like many other viruses. Measles can cause immune system amnesia. RSV can cause inflammation in the middle ear. Chicken pox multiplies in the lung but hides in your nervous system until it comes out as shingles decades later. Pick any virus and you’ll learn of some crazy potential complications.

throwaway5752 6y ago

Do you have any data on incidence rates of neurological side effects in covid compared to influenza, for example?